Confirmed with Link: Sandin to Washington for Erik Gustafsson and 1st (BOS)

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

at 5v5 he has a 70% ozone start, his team is getting out-chanced, his team shoots 20%, and his goaltenders have a .974.

Sandin is a good young player, but let's pump the breaks, this is not sustainable at all.

You don't need to tell other people that Sandin won't be producing at a 160 point level going forward. Nobody thinks that will be the case.

But since you're interested in his play driving numbers with Washington, how do you feel about them with the Leafs?

 

[notbias]

You don't need to tell other people that Sandin won't be producing at a 160 point level going forward. Nobody thinks that will be the case.

But since you're interested in his play driving numbers with Washington, how do you feel about them with the Leafs?

They were great with the Leafs as a 3rd pairing D.

I think he is a good young player.

I also think he wasn't going to be in our top 6 for this year or next so I think a trade was a good idea and the value was fair.

I'd rather have him on the team but I think Rielly, McCabe, and Gio are all better.

Not happy or upset with the trade, but I am fine with it.

 

[Stephen]

Trading Sandin was a mistake.

Should have given Sandin at least one more year before trading him. Smallish and no speed, but could develop into a Torey Krug type of player still. Not so shabby and worth much more than late first.

Dubas should have been prohibited from making trades like that due to the status of his contract.

Here’s the thing for me. Erik Gustafsson is a points producing machine from Washington who is a 7th defenseman on the Leafs. Carlson is hurt and Orlov has been traded to Boston. Sandin couldn’t contribute consistently in the Leafs system and is now getting the ice time he couldn’t dream of handling in Toronto. So how can the Leafs time their entire window of contention around Sandin? Especially when Sandin himself wasn’t willing to slowly develop like Liljegren?

 

[RoadWarrior]

Here’s the thing for me. Erik Gustafsson is a points producing machine from Washington who is a 7th defenseman on the Leafs. Carlson is hurt and Orlov has been traded to Boston. Sandin couldn’t contribute consistently in the Leafs system and is now getting the ice time he couldn’t dream of handling in Toronto. So how can the Leafs time their entire window of contention around Sandin? Especially when Sandin himself wasn’t willing to slowly develop like Liljegren?

Sandin just wanted to be in the lineup and Keefe was playing Justin Effing Holl ahead of him.

The solution is to dump Holl not Sandin who was on a cheap contract.

The Holl obsession might cost them Liljegren as well.

 

[Stephen]

Sandin just wanted to be in the lineup and Keefe was playing Justin Effing Holl ahead of him.

The solution is to dump Holl not Sandin who was on a cheap contract.

The Holl obsession might cost them Liljegren as well.

Yes, I have zero time for Holl. But you have to also realize that Sandin in for Holl would also require a multi defenseman reorganization, like something like Brodie our, Rielly out, someone like Ekholm in and the Sandin slides into a top 4 puck moving role.

The Leafs rely on Holl not because he’s quality but because he’s a player type he represents vs Sandin who does something else.

It’s like David Kampf and Nick Robertson. They are both “forwards” but do entirely different things.

 

[Stephen]

If I read between the lines, the departure of Sandin was more of a human relationship breakdown between the athlete who wanted more sooner vs the organization with different needs than a failure of asset management by the org. Everyone knows I’m not a massive Dubas guy but I don’t blame him one bit for this move. If I were to guess, Sandin wasn’t a happy camper. As a fan taking the Leafs side, I wasn’t too happy with him as a Leaf either.

The asset return of a 1st doesn’t look hot now but will be more important on draft day giving them ammunition to make hockey deals, trade up, or trade down to replenish some of the picks lost. Where Toronto and Boston are likely to be picking it’s a backfill of the ROR Acciari deal.

 

[TDotMassive]

I hated this trade at the time and think it will age poorly. You don't give up on a 22 year old puck moving, PP quarterbacking D who can play with some physicality just because this season he won't play regularly. Not many 22 year old D excel at the NHL level... to give up on him now is insane imo.

 

[ICBM]

Here’s the thing for me. Erik Gustafsson is a points producing machine from Washington who is a 7th defenseman on the Leafs. Carlson is hurt and Orlov has been traded to Boston. Sandin couldn’t contribute consistently in the Leafs system and is now getting the ice time he couldn’t dream of handling in Toronto. So how can the Leafs time their entire window of contention around Sandin? Especially when Sandin himself wasn’t willing to slowly develop like Liljegren?

Leafs are not ready to go all in. This team is fragile. It can't win anything the way it is now. Gooning bottom six up means nothing if your top six are mentally weak.
If this core were capable of doing any playoff damage, they would have won Montreal series at least.
Dubas is building sand castle trying to save his skin. This core should have been blown after Montreal fiasco. Rielly traded and space cleared for a real top-2 dman. Sandin or whoever able to take the job. Dubas has no control over the room. Giving out money will not work.
And it didn't matter what Sandin wanted. Good team is like an army. Soldiers go to die where officers order them to go. Order is not a suggestion.

 

[Antropovsky]

I wonder if the leafs could've done the Sandin trade first and then used the Bruins first instead for Oreilly instead of their own. That would remove the sting a bit. Bruins pick is guaranteed to to be the second last to last pick in the draft.

 

[Stephen]

Leafs are not ready to go all in. This team is fragile. It can't win anything the way it is now. Gooning bottom six up means nothing if your top six are mentally weak.
If this core were capable of doing any playoff damage, they would have won Montreal series at least.
Dubas is building sand castle trying to save his skin. This core should have been blown after Montreal fiasco. Rielly traded and space cleared for a real top-2 dman. Sandin or whoever able to take the job. Dubas has no control over the room. Giving out money will not work.
And it didn't matter what Sandin wanted. Good team is like an army. Soldiers go to die where officers order them to go. Order is not a suggestion.

I share some of the same frustrations with you and have the similar fears, but I don't really see Sandin's departure the same way.

Sandin wasn't traded for all in. He was traded to backfill future assets in an all in, so I see it as Dubas still having some consideration for the long term health of the team when we might need the 2023 first rounder to be a player.

Sandin wasn't a player right now. On one hand, you could say he can come back and burn the team by having a long career elsewhere, but even if he's a Stralman or Steen somewhere else, he wasn't displacing anyone in head to head competition in Toronto. I also don't like the player type and skillset, so it doesn't feel like when we gave up on a 21 year old 6'3" do everything defenseman like Kenny Jonsson. He's small, skilled, slow, smart and poor defensively. It's not a slam dunk puzzle piece.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Even though in the background the reasons for moving Sandin may be valid (promise made by Dubas? no room on LD? unable to play RD? problems during contract negotiations? player too slow? player not strong enough to move opponents out of the slot, unable to trade Rielly, need cap space, etc.) this will go down in Leaf history as one of the worst Leafs trades of all time.

There's some stiff competition: Sittler, Rask, Damphousse, Stralman....

 

[Buds17]

I wonder if the leafs could've done the Sandin trade first and then used the Bruins first instead for Oreilly instead of their own. That would remove the sting a bit. Bruins pick is guaranteed to to be the second last to last pick in the draft.

There's a potential scenario in which the Leafs lack any 1st rounder in 2023 if the trade order now becomes Sandin, McCabe, ROR (or Sandin, ROR, McCabe). Tough to determine whether or not that all comes to fruition.

 

[Stephen]

I hated this trade at the time and think it will age poorly. You don't give up on a 22 year old puck moving, PP quarterbacking D who can play with some physicality just because this season he won't play regularly. Not many 22 year old D excel at the NHL level... to give up on him now is insane imo.

The Leafs are willing to be patient with Liljegren, who took a reasonable deal, came to camp and has shown steady progress. He's also been willing to sit out at certain times that didn't seem to be fair to him as a young player.

Sandin is different. I think everyone would have been at least open to keeping him around longer for more jobs to open up, but he wasn't a happy camper in that role. He said he was better than Liljegren. Sat out during camp only to sign the same deal as offered at the start of free agency. He couldn't beat out Gio for a job. Didn't sound like he would be happy sitting in the press box and seeing occasional time in the playoffs.

 

[Stephen]

I wonder if the leafs could've done the Sandin trade first and then used the Bruins first instead for Oreilly instead of their own. That would remove the sting a bit. Bruins pick is guaranteed to to be the second last to last pick in the draft.

I wonder if there's an alternate solution where they just traded Sandin for Orlov to cut Boston out of the loop entirely, or if they wanted to do that at all.

 

[Namikaze Minato]

I wonder if there's an alternate solution where they just traded Sandin for Orlov to cut Boston out of the loop entirely, or if they wanted to do that at all.

So which major T.O trade are you taking away? Mccabe for 3 more seasons at 2 million or ROR and Acciari?

 

[Stephen]

So which major T.O trade are you taking away? Mccabe for 3 more seasons at 2 million or ROR and Acciari?

Sandin for Orlov and retention.
McCabe and Lafferty for the picks.
ROR and Acciari for picks.

Engvall out for cap?
Kerfoot out for cap?

 

[Namikaze Minato]

Sandin for Orlov and retention.
McCabe and Lafferty for the picks.
ROR and Acciari for picks.

Engvall out for cap?
Kerfoot out for cap?

I dont see it being very realistic but it certainly would have been insane haha.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I dont see it being very realistic but it certainly would have been insane haha.

It was doable we’d just lose Orlov to UFA and not have much to work with next deadline, but then again neither do Boston or Tampa so maybe it’s not as big of an issue.

 

[Zur En Arrh]

It was a dumb trade, even if he was a dick or asked for a trade wait to the draft. I'm still annoyed by it tbh...

 

[Menzinger]

I hated this trade at the time and think it will age poorly. You don't give up on a 22 year old puck moving, PP quarterbacking D who can play with some physicality just because this season he won't play regularly. Not many 22 year old D excel at the NHL level... to give up on him now is insane imo.

I also have mixed feelings about the trade.

Though all things considered you're also describing basically Cody Franson during his best years.

Who WAS a good player. Though not exactly one I'd lament missing out on

 

[AuraSphere]

I wonder if the leafs could've done the Sandin trade first and then used the Bruins first instead for Oreilly instead of their own. That would remove the sting a bit. Bruins pick is guaranteed to to be the second last to last pick in the draft.

No it's not, that's not how picks work. Those who make it to the top 4 in the playoffs will be picking bottom 4.

 

[rocketman588]

The Leafs are willing to be patient with Liljegren, who took a reasonable deal, came to camp and has shown steady progress. He's also been willing to sit out at certain times that didn't seem to be fair to him as a young player.

Sandin is different. I think everyone would have been at least open to keeping him around longer for more jobs to open up, but he wasn't a happy camper in that role. He said he was better than Liljegren. Sat out during camp only to sign the same deal as offered at the start of free agency. He couldn't beat out Gio for a job. Didn't sound like he would be happy sitting in the press box and seeing occasional time in the playoffs.

Sandin didn't seem open to getting dicked around by lineup decisions.

I honestly think that's a good thing. I think he tried to force the offer sheet so he could leave before the season.

What's happening to Lily is criminal and Timmins is probably not going to play another game for a while. All of which stunts development.

Can't fault him for wanting to play imo. With our defense we shouldn't be running Gio into the ground with minimal breaks ( he looks gassed) and looking for ways to fit Holl into the lineup no matter what.

 

[Antropovsky]

No it's not, that's not how picks work. Those who make it to the top 4 in the playoffs will be picking bottom 4.

Thats a great point, along the same thought, maybe leafs do the Sandin trade first and then send "a 1st" to St Louis. With the leafs keeping the 1st that's higher of the two at the draft between the Bruins pick and the Leafs. That way they were guaranteed the higher pick, which we've seen before in trades.

 

[ICBM]

I share some of the same frustrations with you and have the similar fears, but I don't really see Sandin's departure the same way.

Sandin wasn't traded for all in. He was traded to backfill future assets in an all in, so I see it as Dubas still having some consideration for the long term health of the team when we might need the 2023 first rounder to be a player.

Sandin wasn't a player right now. On one hand, you could say he can come back and burn the team by having a long career elsewhere, but even if he's a Stralman or Steen somewhere else, he wasn't displacing anyone in head to head competition in Toronto.

My logic is based on fact that Leafs can't win with Rielly. Because:
- not a smart player, and you can not have a player that is not smart on your first pair. He is paid like a first pair dman but he ain't.
- 0 grit
- can't defend, because... not smart

Sandin is a smart player and those tend to evolve. Rielly should have been traded and Sandin provided with opportunity. We lost Sandin and gonna get beaten in the playoffs again. Next manager gonna trade multiple first round picks to get real dman and retain salary to get rid of Rielly.

 

[Damisoph]

Has anyone watched Sandin play in Washington?

Aren't his play-driving stats bad currently? This sounds more like unsustainable production than anything else.

It's absolutely unsustainable ... I mean, it's 2 ppg.

Not trying to slam Sandin but to say he's a smart player, idk man ... he coughed the puck up far too much while under pressure, a la Rielly, he has a better shot but can't skate as well as Rielly. I'm fine with recouping a 1st for him