Salary Cap: Salary Cap Summer | The Hunt for 3C | Updated cap info in Post #1

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Unless he plans on offer-sheeting an RFA... woof.

Offer Sheet! Offer Sheet! Offer Sheet!

Either that or he nabs some player in europe.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

He signed his contract 7/1/14.

Murray just signed his contract last year so i would that would hold more value.

I think that had something to do with his injuries as well though. Even to this day I don't think anyone knows what he is exactly.

I wonder how much "upside" is factored in to Larsson's deal. He hasn't shown it (and may never), but he was supposed to have this offensive upside that Dumoulin simply doesn't have.

Even still, I think Larsson's a better player than Dumoulin (more of a threat to score, more physical, equal defensively). So if he's getting $4.167 million per year, Dumo should be getting less than that.

I can buy that, but whether an agent buys it is another story. All an agent sees is Maatta and Larsson breaking $4 mil. I'm sure Larsson is better but good luck quantifying that, and Dumo has Cups of course.

 

[Nakawick]

No way would I want Dumo on the UFA market in two years.

Yeah, Dumo not locked up would make him more of a trade possibility than Maatta.

 

[66-30-33]

I support either Shore but which one specifically?

Devin.

Benn
Hanzal
Faska
Spezza
Seguin

No idea what else they got for C depth.

Devin had 13 goals for 33 points in 82 games last season. Once Malkin gets injured Haula and Shore move up. No idea what it would cost for Shore though but he's 22 and just played his first full season. No idea on his speed/faceoffs either but people talk about him often in here.

 

[Shady Machine]

Surely they wont just look at points when the value Dmen in arbitration?

The fact Dumoulin has played 21 and 22 minutes per game in back to back Cup runs has surely got to be factored in.

They wont just ignore the fact that the guy played 1st pairing D minutes in back to back cup wins because he doesn't score a lot.

I don't think he gets 4 in arbitration, probably around the 3 mark.

I just think we should be giving him 4 to get him signed long term.

It surely does get factored in, but how do you value that in terms of dollars? Both sides have to find comparable players/contracts to sell their side. I can't find one where a Dman that produces that little gets over 4MM in arbitration.

 

[Shady Machine]

Playing top pairing for back-to-back cup wins. Led all Pens dmen in TOI in 2017 playoffs. While his regular season point production isn't great, his playoff production is on par with Maatta's and only a little behind Letang and Schultz.

Yup that's his leverage. Now the Pens have 2 goals and 33 points in 163 career regular season games. Add in playoff production and you are at 5 goals and 44 points in 217 games. That's a pace of 2 goals and 17 points per 82. Try to sell that being worth over 4MM as an RFA.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I can buy that, but whether an agent buys it is another story. All an agent sees is Maatta and Larsson breaking $4 mil. I'm sure Larsson is better but good luck quantifying that, and Dumo has Cups of course.

It is quantifiable though. Larsson signed his deal coming off a 3 goal, 24 point in 61 game season. Better production than Dumoulin has going into his arbitration hearing. Dumo's agent has less "stats" to back up any demands than Larsson's agent had at the time.

Unfair or not to defensive defensemen, production does weigh heavily in contract negotiations. That's why the best defensive guys in hockey make much, much less than their offensive counterparts.

 

[davemess]

It surely does get factored in, but how do you value that in terms of dollars? Both sides have to find comparable players/contracts to sell their side. I can't find one where a Dman that produces that little gets over 4MM in arbitration.

I didn't say he as going to get 4M in arbitration, I said we should give him 4M for a long term deal.

 

[Shady Machine]

I can buy that, but whether an agent buys it is another story. All an agent sees is Maatta and Larsson breaking $4 mil. I'm sure Larsson is better but good luck quantifying that, and Dumo has Cups of course.

Sure but here's the thing, do you actually think Dumo has enough leverage in an arbitration case to get over 4MM?

I honestly have no issue with Dumo going the arbitration route if I'm JR, because I don't think there's a major risk that I don't "win".

In a long term deal, I could see the argument for 4MM.

 

[Shady Machine]

I didn't say he as going to get 4M in arbitration, I said we should give him 4M for a long term deal.

You said "Surely they wont just look at points when the value Dmen in arbitration". How else am I supposed to interpret that? Did't you push for more than Maatta like 2 pages ago?

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

It is quantifiable though. Larsson signed his deal coming off a 3 goal, 24 point in 61 game season. Better production than Dumoulin has going into his arbitration hearing. Dumo's agent has less "stats" to back up any demands than Larsson's agent had at the time.

Unfair or not to defensive defensemen, production does weigh heavily in contract negotiations. That's why the best defensive guys in hockey make much, much less than their offensive counterparts.

Yeah his points are pretty damn low no way around that. I just think if you're not consistently hitting 30 points it's kind of negligible whether a guy scores 0 goals or 3, or 17 points instead of 23.

 

[Shady Machine]

It is quantifiable though. Larsson signed his deal coming off a 3 goal, 24 point in 61 game season. Better production than Dumoulin has going into his arbitration hearing. Dumo's agent has less "stats" to back up any demands than Larsson's agent had at the time.

Unfair or not to defensive defensemen, production does weigh heavily in contract negotiations. That's why the best defensive guys in hockey make much, much less than their offensive counterparts.

Yup and the ones that get overpaid (Orpik) are usually guys in their late 20's / early 30's and the team doing the signing usually regrets it.

 

[66-30-33]

Oilers press conference at 3pm EST. Hopefully McDavid signs an 8 year deal worth 14M per. Then 10M per for Drai for 8 years.

 

[davemess]

You said "Surely they wont just look at points when the value Dmen in arbitration". How else am I supposed to interpret that? Did't you push for more than Maatta like 2 pages ago?

I just don't agree with the suggestion that we are going to get him on the cheap through arbitration because he doesn't score goals.

And yeah I think he should get the same or slightly more than Maatta. 6 years and a shade over 4M AVV was my suggestion.

 

[Shady Machine]

Yeah his points are pretty damn low no way around that. I just think if you're not consistently hitting 30 points it's kind of negligible whether a guy scores 0 goals or 3, or 17 points instead of 23.

Probably true and that's probably the contract that Dumo's agent would point to. I'd say that's probably on the high end of the scale though, so if 4.2MM on a 6 year deal is the worst JR can do with Dumo, then he's probably in good shape.

 

[SEALBound]

And I still think 3 years @ 10m for Sheary makes sense for everyone.

Pauly

Devin.

Benn
Hanzal
Faska
Spezza
Seguin

No idea what else they got for C depth.

Devin had 13 goals for 33 points in 82 games last season. Once Malkin gets injured Haula and Shore move up. No idea what it would cost for Shore though but he's 22 and just played his first full season. No idea on his speed/faceoffs either but people talk about him often in here.

I would prefer Faska due to size but Shore would be splendid as well.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Those are Colligan's guesses, he seems to follow this kind of stuff, i would be happy with those numbers.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Yup and the ones that get overpaid (Orpik) are usually guys in their late 20's / early 30's and the team doing the signing usually regrets it.

Plus they're UFA, so there are multiple teams bidding for them, and that jacks the salary up. Dumoulin is Penguins property, so there's no second team bidding up the prices.

With a guy like Larsson making slightly over $4 million, I just can't see Dumoulin making that much. He has zero case on an individual level (unless the arbitrator loves Jonathan Toews' 3-Cup intangibles) to make more than $4 million per year.

 

[Nakawick]

You know what, I am going back and forth on this. I am not 100% sure on the rules, but I think it might be that player elected arbitration is one year. If that is the case, Dumo and Sheary would still be RFA's next year.

 

[Shady Machine]

I just don't agree with the suggestion that we are going to get him on the cheap through arbitration because he doesn't score goals.

And yeah I think he should get the same or slightly more than Maatta. 6 years and a shade over 4M AVV was my suggestion.

I didn't say the Pens would "get him on the cheap". I'm arguing that the Pens have far more leverage in an arbitration hearing than Dumo does. The Pens likely want Dumo signed on a long term deal in the 3.5MM range. Dumo probably wants 4.5MM on a long term deal. The arbitrator is more likely to award something closer to the 3.5MM range on a short team deal.

Hopefully the Pens get something done before that in the high 3's.

 

[Malkinstheman]

I dont know if i want sheary at that number.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Those are Colligan's guesses, he seems to follow this kind of stuff, i would be happy with those numbers.

Did he mix up the names?

 

[ColePens]

Those are Colligan's guesses, he seems to follow this kind of stuff, i would be happy with those numbers.

5.5 + 2.5 + 4 = 12. Magic number right there. 12 or less and we are in good business. 11 is a dream.

 

[ColePens]

I would kill for Dumo at 6 years totaling 20m. I just think he's worth it.

 

[SEALBound]

Those are Colligan's guesses, he seems to follow this kind of stuff, i would be happy with those numbers.

That would be perfect for Dumoulin. Offer him 3mil per and extend it out to 5-6yrs.

Too high for Sheary though. Package him for a 3C at that price.