Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Yeah, I got nuthin' ....

[PensandCaps]

Well, minus hitting like a truck and fighting. And how can you possibly say Reaves isn't fast? He's a legitimately good skater. Reaves brings something the Penguins don't have: toughness. Archibald will just flat out never bring that. Whether you think that is necessary remains up to debate, but it's not like Archibald does anything that Reaves can't do.



I don't either, but I don't think the difference is significant at all. Maybe 5 point difference over a full season.

I think you're missing my point. I'm saying We have a ton of players who can fill the RW on the 4th line and that Reaves wasn't a need. Not specificly just Archibald. Or even if Reaves is better or not. He may be but it's not so much better that we had to give up assets for him when we already have Kuhn,Archibald and potentially ZAR and Sprong at RW. My point is that RW was the last position we needed to go out of our way to trade for And it's not even a clear upgrade.

 

[SCPens]

Exactly. So if Archibald does what Reaves does. Why did we get him. We already have alot of wingers who are NHL ready like Archibald,Sprong or ZAR, Kuhn as well. Again, Reaves was not needed. Also Reaves isn't fast, He's fast for a big guy, but gets dusted by Archibald. Reaves is a fine 4th liner, but we already have like 8 players who can be fine 4th liners.

Ummmm because he DOESN'T do what Reaves does. The Pens may or may not have 8 players who can be fine 4th liners but I hate to burst your bubble - NONE of them offer the EXTREMELY unique skill set that Reaves does. Thus the reason Rutherford acquired him. But let's all talk about for hours on end how Archibald does what Reaves does....geez.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

No. The pens could've still gotten Lauzon and Kostin. Draft Kostin and if You REALLY like Lauzon, trade for a 2nd. Hell most rankings had him going in the 3rd or 4th round.

I know you will probably hate what I am going to say, but clearly the Penguins liked Ryan Reaves way more than Klim Kostin after evaluating both.

Instead of dissing management for making this move, why not ask yourself why the two-time champions had little interest in Kostin?


A lot of people are acting like we are still THAT organization not giving kids a chance, when quite clearly the exact opposite is true. We would not have won two Cups without the youth this time around.

If we had someone like Reaves coming up, you bet your life we would have inserted into the lineup.

We did not have Reaves. JR felt we needed Reaves. I back JR on this one, and virtually all personnel matters to be honest.

Why not?

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

On another topic, because I am already tired of defending our new enforcer, I watched Alex Galchenyuk live last night. Man, this guy has fallen almost as badly as his former linemate Yakupov did. He was terrible, and I know that Julien really dislikes his game.

I think he is going to be traded, maybe by the end of training camp.

The thing is, he needs to be rehabilitated, pardon the pun, because Montreal has destroyed his development. So, even if I still think he is salvageable, he is nowhere near ready to play third-line center for us. We would have to bring him along slowly on the fourth line, or on the wing (where we have no need for him).

So, I don't think he is in the discussion anymore. At one point I think JR had interest, but Galchenyuk's situation is ugly right now.

Ya I don't think he would work out that much here, and I agree that the Habs might want to try to move him before it's too late and he has no more value.
I watch a lot of him as well and what kills me is that he still plays the game like he is in the Juniors and uses the same fake since the age of 12.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It's a clear upgrade if you value physicality. It's a minor loss if you value speed above all else. That makes sense.

Acting like it's a clear cut case however is silly.

 

[PensandCaps]

On another topic, because I am already tired of defending our new enforcer, I watched Alex Galchenyuk live last night. Man, this guy has fallen almost as badly as his former linemate Yakupov did. He was terrible, and I know that Julien really dislikes his game.

I think he is going to be traded, maybe by the end of training camp.

The thing is, he needs to be rehabilitated, pardon the pun, because Montreal has destroyed his development. So, even if I still think he is salvageable, he is nowhere near ready to play third-line center for us. We would have to bring him along slowly on the fourth line, or on the wing (where we have no need for him).

So, I don't think he is in the discussion anymore. At one point I think JR had interest, but Galchenyuk's situation is ugly right now.

Well. Gally has proved SO much more than Yak has. He has a 30 goal season under his belt and a few 50+ point seasons. And would've been over 50 last year had he stayed healthy. So comparing him yak is kind of a reach.

 

[Peat]

Man, I can't wait until this board takes intro to physics. Should be a real hoot.

Can we take intro to logic first? Pretty please.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I can understand being upset about adding Reaves if the Penguins gave up something of value for him, but they really didn't. They gave up a center prospect that was no better and had no higher of a ceiling than any of the guys they had already and traded down 20 spots in a mediocre draft to get Reaves.

The weird part of this discussion is that Archibald wouldn't even be playing as a regular even if the Penguins wouldn't have traded for Reaves. He'd still be at best the 13th forward, possibly even lower if Sundqvist would be above him (I could have seen Wilson-Sundqvist-Rowney being the Pens 4th line).

 

[SCPens]

I meant it as both players bring that element not that Archibald is better at it. Anyway I just don't see Reaves putting up as many points as Archibald.

This has verrrrry little to nothing to do with points Mr. Farnham, Reaves was acquired for other reasons. This team has had NO issues putting the puck in the net the past 2 seasons....but there have been other issues that needed to be addressed. And now they HAVE been addressed. But I forgot, Archibald and his AHL scoring championship will definitely translate at the next level! And I'm a big Archy supporter BTW.

 

[PensandCaps]

Ummmm because he DOESN'T do what Reaves does. The Pens may or may not have 8 players who can be fine 4th liners but I hate to burst your bubble - NONE of them offer the EXTREMELY unique skill set that Reaves does. Thus the reason Rutherford acquired him. But let's all talk about for hours on end how Archibald does what Reaves does....geez.

I guess if you still think hitting and fighting are important in todays NHL. Kuhn and Archibald and Rowney could easily fill 4th line RW just as good as Reaves, most likely better in Kuhns case. But hey give up a first for a non upgrade at a stacked position.

 

[FreeBobbyFarnham]

I can understand being upset about adding Reaves if the Penguins gave up something of value for him, but they really didn't. They gave up a center prospect that was no better and had no higher of a ceiling than any of the guys they had already and traded down 20 spots in a mediocre draft to get Reaves.

It wasn't a mediocre draft though. The top 5 was weaker than the previous drafts but that doesn't mean it's mediocre. I mean a guy like Kostin was available at the 31st pick.

 

[SCPens]

I think you're missing my point. I'm saying We have a ton of players who can fill the RW on the 4th line and that Reaves wasn't a need. Not specificly just Archibald. Or even if Reaves is better or not. He may be but it's not so much better that we had to give up assets for him when we already have Kuhn,Archibald and potentially ZAR and Sprong at RW. My point is that RW was the last position we needed to go out of our way to trade for And it's not even a clear upgrade.

Well I think YOU'RE completely missing the REAL point. It has NOTHING to do with being "better", comparing Reaves to the long list of other 4th line options is totally apples and oranges. Anyhow.....

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

It's the classic case where you overstate a case and is too proud to climb down the three .

And no - it makes no sense to talk about Adams getting 18 points "at Kuhn's age". They had both turned 25 during their second seasons, and Kuhn will start his third season as a 25 year old now, just as Adams did.
You can compare their 3rd season numbers after this season if you want.
Until then my previously stated numbers are what you have to go on, and while Kuhn has delivered an acceptable output, Adams early production was atrocious. Almost statistical aberration territory for a forward.

Not a surprise though. The fact that he made the NHL speaks well of his desire and commitment because he had zero talent. Kuhn was an offensively gifted junior player (or at least a serious scorer with a big, big shot), who had to change his game as a pro because his skating won't let him be an offensive player. That much we agree on. Doesn't change that he has much more to his game offensively than Adams who had a few non-terrible production years in a career spanning 15+ seasons.

To even compare them offensively, you have to assume it's downhill from here for Kuhn despite him not even being a regular in the league yet due to our depth.

Nah, it's a classic case of irony for you and the others that disliked Adams, but defend Kuhn as a better player.

Adams put up the same production at the same age. You can throw out all the excuses you like, but Adams produced just as well.

Adams still put up respectable numbers at 34 years of age, with 18 points.

That doesn't mean offense didn't go to die on his stick, just like it does with Kuhn.

Poor skaters that kill any offense when they touch the puck, but stay in the league because they are human shields and kill penalties... that would be... Adams and Kuhn, a very apt comparison.

Again, it's not necessary for you to make this bizarre comparison to say that Sheehan might be a decent option for us (something I can agree with btw. - or something I'd at least consider a worthwhile roll of the dice).

This literally has nothing to do with the discussion. I'll give you a freebie though...

Didn't know Cullen was Sidney Crosby. So all of Kuhns stats don't count because he played with Matt Cullen? Atrocious board play? Its not great, but atrocious? It's absurd to call Kuhn, Adams 2.0.

The stats count, and I'm even giving you the made up projections that you want to assume would happen if Kuhn played 82 games in a season, but it's inherently easier to produce points when you play with a guy like Cullen.

Or would you like to argue about the caliber of fourth liners Adams played with? If so, that should be a fun debate...

 

[Empoleon8771]

It wasn't a mediocre draft though. The top 5 was weaker than the previous drafts but that doesn't mean it's mediocre. I mean a guy like Kostin was available at the 31st pick.

Nah, it was pretty universally considered mediocre. There wasn't a big disparity in talent between say 15 and 60. I don't know why people are making such a big deal out of Kostin, he played in only 18 games total last year. He was available at 31 because he missed a huge part of the season with a shoulder injury, not because the draft was deep.

 

[PensandCaps]

Nah, it's a classic case of irony for you and the others that disliked Adams, but defend Kuhn as a better player.

Adams put up the same production at the same age. You can throw out all the excuses you like, but Adams produced just as well.

Adams still put up respectable numbers at 34 years of age, with 18 points.

That doesn't mean offense didn't go to die on his stick, just like it does with Kuhn.

Poor skaters that kill any offense when they touch the puck, but stay in the league because they are human shields and kill penalties... that would be... Adams and Kuhn, a very apt comparison.



This literally has nothing to do with the discussion. I'll give you a freebie though...



The stats count, and I'm even giving you the made up projections that you want to assume would happen if Kuhn played 82 games in a season, but it's inherently easier to produce points when you play with a guy like Cullen.

Or would you like to argue about the caliber of fourth liners Adams played with? If so, that should be a fun debate...

Kuhn could get 30 points if given 82 games. He has untapped offensive potential. Kuhn isn't Adams, he's a solid 4th liner for any team in the NHL. You're just wrong.

 

[PensandCaps]

Anyway. Thoughts on Bleuger making the team or not? I've been his biggest fan, I think he's shown enough to warrant getting a spot. But I'd understand if they give it to McKegg and call him up in Decemeber.

 

[Empoleon8771]

On Athanasiou, he's apparently asking for $2.5 million a year over 2 years when the Wings are sticking firm to $1.9 million a year over 2 years. AA is asking for a lot more than he's worth, but I'm really concerned about the Penguins adding Sheahan if they've been this deadlocked over $600k a year.

 

[FreeBobbyFarnham]

This has verrrrry little to nothing to do with points Mr. Farnham, Reaves was acquired for other reasons. This team has had NO issues putting the puck in the net the past 2 seasons....but there have been other issues that needed to be addressed. And now they HAVE been addressed. But I forgot, Archibald and his AHL scoring championship will definitely translate at the next level! And I'm a big Archy supporter BTW.

What issues are those? Reaves can fight, hit and I guess skate but he's not worth what we gave up imo. Yeah I heard the "but it's only 20 spots" bs but really it's not about the spots it's about who's available. And let's say that JR really wasn't interested in Kostin and STL were really pushing to get the pick. Then in that case he had leverage and could've gotten Reaves for way cheaper. I'm pretty sure most teams value Kostin more than a 4th line physical player. Archibald, Wilson and Rowney can all dish hits, they might not be as good at it but they can certainly do the job.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Kuhn could get 30 points if given 82 games. He has untapped offensive potential. Kuhn isn't Adams, he's a solid 4th liner for any team in the NHL. You're just wrong.

Here is a dose of reality about your projections...

Kuhn played in exactly 15 more games last season than the prior one, and guess how much his production was boosted by those extra 15 games... One whole single point. One.

That's why projections are extremely dicey and not reliable, especially for fourth liners who generally hit long dry spells.

 

[ColePens]

Did I just read the Pens were bad at drafting even though we have all of these youngsters on our team in the last 2 years? Sure some 1st rounders at the end of round 1 didn't go our way. Go look at drafts for other teams, too. You won't recognize every name you see.

 

[FreeBobbyFarnham]

Did I just read the Pens were bad at drafting even though we have all of these youngsters on our team in the last 2 years? Sure some 1st rounders at the end of round 1 didn't go our way. Go look at drafts for other teams, too. You won't recognize every name you see.

Well tbf they have really struggled in the early rounds especially the 1st. Other than Maatta the rest are pretty much all busts.

 

[PensandCaps]

Did I just read the Pens were bad at drafting even though we have all of these youngsters on our team in the last 2 years? Sure some 1st rounders at the end of round 1 didn't go our way. Go look at drafts for other teams, too. You won't recognize every name you see.

I didn't see that anywhere. The pens have been really good. I mean just look at the cup winning roster. Also Sprong.

 

[ColePens]

I think the one thing a few people should know (yes.. I said a few people because it's just a couple of posters every single time):

Not every team can be perfect in drafting, trading, developing, depth, etc. It's just not realistic. You just need the right amount of draft picks to work, the right around of trades to work, be able to sign your core, and hell.. honestly get a bit lucky.

The Pens haven't won every single trade, but I'd say they are damn good for how things played out. The Pens haven't been the sexiest draft team, but hey we got enough prospects that turned into NHLers, and VERY good ones at that. The Pens have been lucky, too.

That is a blessing. How people still ***** after those things go our way is beyond me. How people say this summer is bad is beyond me. How people STILL ***** as training camp looks awesome so far is beyond me. (remember.. singling out the few posters here, not the 90% of us that don't take this for granted).

 

[FreeBobbyFarnham]

Nah, it was pretty universally considered mediocre. There wasn't a big disparity in talent between say 15 and 60. I don't know why people are making such a big deal out of Kostin, he played in only 18 games total last year. He was available at 31 because he missed a huge part of the season with a shoulder injury, not because the draft was deep.

Fair point but I still don't think it's as weak as you're suggesting

 

[Empoleon8771]

Well tbf they have really struggled in the early rounds especially the 1st. Other than Maatta the rest are pretty much all busts.

It depends on what your definition of a bust is. Bennett is probably an average scoring 3rd line winger. Is he a bust? When I think of a bust, I think of someone like Angelo Esposito.

2017: Didn't have a 1st
2016: Didn't have a 1st
2015: Didn't have a 1st
2014: Kapanen, got traded but looks pretty solid for the Leafs rn
2013: Didn't have a 1st
2012: Pouliot and Maatta, Pouliot sucks but Maatta is a legit top-4 D
2011: Morrow, Morrow sucks
2010: Bennett, probably wouldn't be a bust
2009: Despres, was a legit top-4 D before concussions destroyed him

So of those, I'm seeing 2 busts (and it's still possible Morrow and Pouliot end up becoming serviceable like Bennett), a promising young prospect, 2 top-4 D and a 3rd line scoring winger. That's really not that bad. It's not like the Blues pulling Schwartz and Tarasenko 2 picks from each other in the 1st round, but it's fine. There are teams who have done worse in the 1st round than the Penguins have.

It could be worse, the Penguins could have the draft history of the Canadians. Leblanc was a bust, Tinordi was a bust, Beaulieu was traded for a 3rd because they didn't think he was any good, Galchenyuk is having serious issues, McCarron is a bust, Scherbak is a bust, Juulsen looks mediocre and Sergachev has been traded already.