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xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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I try to maintain a more level-headed approach to discussions around here because I've been extremely guilty of being an idiot in the past on these forums, but there's just no way to discuss breaking up Sid and Jake without calling into question someone's intentions.

I can't fathom watching Sid and Jake work together last regular season and especially in the playoffs and even beginning to think about breaking that pairing up. That's as untouchable as anything on this team can be, imo.
 

Gurglesons

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I try to maintain a more level-headed approach to discussions around here because I've been extremely guilty of being an idiot in the past on these forums, but there's just no way to discuss breaking up Sid and Jake without calling into question someone's intentions.

I can't fathom watching Sid and Jake work together last regular season and especially in the playoffs and even beginning to think about breaking that pairing up. That's as untouchable as anything on this team can be, imo.

Just like HBK after last regular season and especially in the playoffs.

You do what makes this team win, that is why Jake and Sheary both saw themselves pulled from Crosby's line in the playoffs.

Obviously the goal is to be able to run a G - Crosby pairing but if Jake proves good enough to carry a mediocre 3C you may force your hand.
 
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Riptide

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Sheary just got $3mil. He scored at a 31g/72pt pace. Rust isn't getting $3mil, nor should he.

$2-2.5mil.

There was also so little to go on with Sheary. He'd played his rookie season in a depth role, and then earned a prominent role and excelled in it. But it was a 60 game stretch.

Sheary also signed that term to get some financial security. If he bets on himself and bombs it, or gets moved off Crosby's line, or gets traded... his next contract will be as a 3rd/4th liner making 1-1.5m. This way he gets some financial security regardless of how things go, and if he does well, he'll be a 28 yr old UFA and can cash in.

With Rust, you have his rookie year (where he too did little), then last year, and then will have this year to base his contract on. Not to mention two very good playoffs. And then, anything over 1 year is buying UFA years, which are more expensive then RFA years.

I'm not sure why this is coming as a shock or a surprise... we (on HF) were talking about him signing a new deal and were talking about hopefully a 3-5 yr deal in the 2.5-3m range 3-5 months ago.

21g/40pts, 39 of those points at ES. Hansen who plays a similar style to Rust, scored 10g/27pts in 47 games and received a 4x2.5m deal... in 09/2013.

If you want him for more than 1 year, it's going to cost more than 2m. Welcome to the NHL in 2017.
 

Riptide

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So in most people's mind our wingers point totals are going to be..

G (65+) - C - S (55ish)
Hags (25ish) - M - P (70ish)
R (40ish) - 3C - Horny (40ish)
W (20ish) - R - Reaves (15ish)

Is that the assumption?

I can tell why people feel like our wingers make up for Bonino and Cullen if that is the belief.

I don't see Hagelin scoring 25ish if he's on the 2nd line (closer to his historical 40ish), and I do not see Rust scoring 40ish if he's on the 3rd line and not playing with 1 of Guentzel or Kessel. I'd probably put Rust at 14-16g, 30ish pts if he doesn't have a skilled center/winger feeding him the puck.

My ideal lineup is this:
S (60+) - C - Hornqvist (50)
G (60+) - M - Rust (40ish)
Hagelin (35-40)- X - Kessel (65+)

But the moment you start moving those pieces around, everything goes out the window. Hagelin and the #3C are going to be dependent on how things work on the 3rd line and how much Kessel can drive things. Rust and Hornqvist will be dependent on us trying a 3 line attack. If Kessel moves up, odds are both are moving down.

I think Sheary and Rust don't drive lines much like I don't believe Dumo, Maatta and Cole can't lead D pairings. Thus, if we pull Sheary or Rust away from Crosby or Malkin we will see a significant dip in their production. I think that will be especially true when you don't have the veteran consistency ( I Know I'm going to get crucified for that) of Cullen and Bonino down the gut.

I don't think anyone is disputing that. That's also one of the main arguments for why keeping SCH together makes the most sense (assuming we're really trying to have 3 scoring lines). Sheary needs the most help offensively out of Guentzel, Kessel and him. Play Guentzel with Malkin, and let Kessel try to drive his own line.

If we're just going to stack the top 6 and have a good 3rd line... whomever is there is going to see a drop in production. Except for maybe Sheahan... I mean could his go any lower? :sarcasm:
 
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Riptide

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I try to maintain a more level-headed approach to discussions around here because I've been extremely guilty of being an idiot in the past on these forums, but there's just no way to discuss breaking up Sid and Jake without calling into question someone's intentions.

Or that we actually want a true 3 line attack where each has skilled and dangerous players? Unless we're getting a Spooner like C (or Duchene), Kessel or Guentzel will have to be on the 3rd line for that to happen and potentially work. Sheary could go there, but he won't be nearly as effective there. And we already saw that SCH can be a very effective line.

I can't fathom watching Sid and Jake work together last regular season and especially in the playoffs and even beginning to think about breaking that pairing up. That's as untouchable as anything on this team can be, imo.

The same thing was said about HBK last year.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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I mean, I really like our wingers, but according to Empo we are going to have Sheary and Jake at 50+ Kessel at 60+ Rust and Sprong at 40+

Are Crosby and Malkin putting up 120+ seasons next year?

So in most people's mind our wingers point totals are going to be..

G (65+) - C - S (55ish)
Hags (25ish) - M - P (70ish)
R (40ish) - 3C - Horny (40ish)
W (20ish) - R - Reaves (15ish)

Is that the assumption?

Uh, why did you bump up the totals from the original projections I quoted you originally about? Now you've got Guentzel at 65+, Sheary at 55, Kessel at around 70, etc. All I quoted was about Guentzel and Sheary being in the 50+ range, Kessel being 60+, and Rust being somewhere in the 40 range.

I think something similar to:
Guentzel (~55) - Crosby - Sheary (~50)
Rust (~40) - Malkin - Kessel (~65)

Is very realistic for the top six. You seem to think it's way, way too overzealous -- even though that's pretty much what those guys produced last year. In some cases (Kessel, Sheary, Guentzel), it's actually *below* what they either produced or paced to produce.

The bottom six is something close to:
Hagelin (~35) - 3C (~25) - Hornqvist (~40)
Wilson (~25) - Rowney/Blueger (~15) - Reaves (~10)

So I'm not sure why you're acting like that's so unrealistic.
 

Gurglesons

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Uh, why did you bump up the totals from the original projections I quoted you originally about? Now you've got Guentzel at 65+, Sheary at 55, Kessel at around 70, etc. All I quoted was about Guentzel and Sheary being in the 50+ range, Kessel being 60+, and Rust being somewhere in the 40 range.

I think something similar to:
Guentzel (~55) - Crosby - Sheary (~50)
Rust (~40) - Malkin - Kessel (~65)

Is very realistic for the top six. You seem to think it's way, way too overzealous -- even though that's pretty much what those guys produced last year. In some cases (Kessel, Sheary, Guentzel), it's actually *below* what they either produced or paced to produce.

The bottom six is something close to:
Hagelin (~35) - 3C (~25) - Hornqvist (~40)
Wilson (~25) - Rowney/Blueger (~15) - Reaves (~10)

So I'm not sure why you're acting like that's so unrealistic.

Because you're prorating an almost 500+ point team.

That is without even including our defense, I think that is a lot to assume given ice time and usage.
 
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xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Or that we actually want a true 3 line attack where each has skilled and dangerous players? Unless we're getting a Spooner like C (or Duchene), Kessel or Guentzel will have to be on the 3rd line for that to happen and potentially work. Sheary could go there, but he won't be nearly as effective there. And we already saw that SCH can be a very effective line.



The same thing was said about HBK last year.

H-K drove that line, and they never stopped being good together though (Hagelin and Kessel, that is, until Hagelin got injured). Bonino just came back to Earth with a resounding thud.

Sid and Jake put up historical numbers together in the post season, and there's no reason to believe it was a fluke.

If you want a legit 3-line attack, and I am with you, you put anyone else on the third line. There is just no reality, in my opinion, where splitting up Sid and Jake makes one iota of sense. You keep them together until they go an extended period of time without success.

I think the bigger issue is what to do with Hornqvist when/if ZAR and Sprong force their way onto the team mid-season.

59 - 87 - 43
17 - 71 - 81
62 - X - 72
23 - X - 75

-edit- I think it's just about time to assume Sid-Hornqvist is not going to be a thing moving forward, at least with any sort of frequency. There's reason to believe the rumors/mutterings about the two just not getting along despite what production and their effectiveness say. Couple that with the emergence of Jake and Sheary and I think you're gonna see a whole lot of Hornqvist on that third line. I don't think he fits with Malkin well at all either, and he seems to be locked in at RW, both of which are a shame.
 
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MrBurghundy

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We have enough offensive talent to have a 3 line scoring threat without breaking up Sid and Jake. Not sure how you argue otherwise.
 

Riptide

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Because you're prorating an almost 500+ point team.

That is without even including our defense, I think that is a lot to assume given ice time and usage.

The top 9 forwards last season produced 457 points and 206 goals. And that's without taking games played into account - four of those players missed 20+ games. Out of 738 games for those 9 players... only 599 games were played.

This idea that a quality attack can't score 500 points seems misplaced.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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Because you're prorating an almost 500+ point team.

And? Last year's team (forwards) scored over 500 (534 not including the bit guys like Kuhn, Rowney, Archibald, etc.). And that's despite the fact guys like Malkin, Rust, Hagelin, Guentzel, Hornqvist, Sheary, etc. missed significant games.

You do realize we're talking about points and not goals, right?
 

Gurglesons

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And? Last year's team (forwards) scored over 500 (534 not including the bit guys like Kuhn, Rowney, Archibald, etc.). And that's despite the fact guys like Malkin, Rust, Hagelin, Guentzel, Hornqvist, Sheary, etc. missed significant games.

You do realize we're talking about points and not goals, right?

Eh. It just seems like a lot when you take away nearly 80 points in our centers and add in a player that historically hits around 10 and two other question marks at center.

I'll admit maybe I'm underselling our offense.
 

Riptide

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If you want a legit 3-line attack, and I am with you, you put anyone else on the third line. There is just no reality, in my opinion, where splitting up Sid and Jake makes one iota of sense. You keep them together until they go an extended period of time without success.

Who? Hornqvist doesn't work well with Malkin and Sheary probably can't carry the line enough to make it a legit threat. Not to mention that he too doesn't work well with Malkin. Which means your options are limited in how to construct the lineup that still has enough skill on the 3rd line to still be dangerous.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Who? Hornqvist doesn't work well with Malkin and Sheary probably can't carry the line enough to make it a legit threat. Not to mention that he too doesn't work well with Malkin. Which means your options are limited in how to construct the lineup that still has enough skill on the 3rd line to still be dangerous.

Hagelin and Hornqvist or Rust and Hornqvist. Wanting a balanced attack is awesome, and again, I agree, but to break up Sid and Jake is astoundingly foolish to me.

Trying to spread talent evenly is not the answer, imo. Top-heavy balance, if that makes sense, should be our approach. Having Guentzel on the third line with someone like Rust doesn't do anything for us in comparison to Sid and Jake together on the first line and one of those two combos above on the third line. You surround your best players first, and worry about depth later.

I'd go with this:

59 - 87 - 43
17 - 71 - 81
62 - X - 72
23 - X - 75

I'd actually rather put Hagelin-Kessel on the third line, but Geno and Hornqvist don't play well together, or at least well enough to warrant it.

Again, gonna be a weird situation with Hornqvist if ZAR or Sprong tear things up in the AHL and force their way on to the big club out of pre-season or sometime during the year. Those two sound like they're gonna be really good players and from all accounts they're just about NHL-ready if they're not right now. It's a good problem to have, for sure, but it could become a weird situation.

I love Hornqvist. I really do. I've been a huge fan of his since before we landed him, I love his style and I think he brings a lot more to the table than shows up in the stat sheet. That being said, if the rumors are true that he and Sid just don't work well together, well then I guess the writing's on the wall, eh? I think there's some evidence of something amiss, based on their body language on the bench, barking at each other on the bench, and Sully not putting them together when it seems line a no-brainer. I don't think you trade him, because he is a Hell of a player and he is valuable in another Cup run, but if Sprong and/or ZAR force their way onto the big club between now and next October, I don't think it's a stretch to see Hornqvist moving on.

Come next season, we could see this lineup:

59 - 87 - 43
17 - 71 - Sprong
ZAR - X - 81
62 - X - 75 (if we re-sign Reaves)

Even if you want to start ZAR and Sprong on that third line, there's just no room for Hornqvist unless you want to keep him on the 4th line with Hagelin and use him as a PP, net-front specialist like Holmstrom was at the tail-end of his career.

But I'm getting off topic. Don't split up Sid and Jake. :laugh:
 

madinsomniac

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Look, if Jake and sheary are on Crosby's line the 3 c doesn't matter for their point production...

Guys like Hornqvist orcto a lesser extent ZAR are generating goals off of rebounds and in close stuff... they don't need playmakers as much as shot producers...

Speed guys like Kessel, Rust, or Hagelin produce because of speed... those kinds of wingers benefit most from defensive centers and passing dmen who can get the puck and let them counter with a fast break the other way...

I mean its not like Kessel couldn't be the playmaker on a line if need be too...

I don't think last years production was directly tied to the 3c ... you can sell me on the 4th line numbers having a bump from Cullen moreso than most if the 3rd line numbers being directly timed to Bonino's playmaking...

We don't really have a lot of wingers that fit the traditional finisher mold that need high end centers to produce points ala james neal...
 

Riptide

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Hagelin and Hornqvist or Rust and Hornqvist. Wanting a balanced attack is awesome, and again, I agree, but to break up Sid and Jake is astoundingly foolish to me.

Trying to spread talent evenly is not the answer, imo. Top-heavy balance, if that makes sense, should be our approach. Having Guentzel on the third line with someone like Rust doesn't do anything for us in comparison to Sid and Jake together on the first line and one of those two combos above on the third line. You surround your best players first, and worry about depth later.

Then don't put him there. Play him with Malkin.

We just won back to back cups playing two very different styles with two very differently setup rosters. There is no right or wrong way to do this (for the most part). For me it's all about winning games, and we already know that SCH can be a stupidly effective line. To the point that it doesn't need to be more dangerous. Which then means we can move Guentzel and Kessel around a little and see if something else will work.

If we want to defend our title, our 3rd line can't be Hagelin and meh #3C and Hornqvist. That represents zero threat other than your run of the mill middle 6 players. But certainly not something the other teams top pairings and defensive/shutdown centers have to worry about... which means they will focus on all our top offensive players on 2 lines.

You brake up Guentzel and Crosby, and you still get a dangerous 1st line that the other team will focus on, and you still have 2 other very dangerous lines that the other teams can't cover. Maybe go back and watch some of the games from 15/16. HBK ran roughshed over teams because for the longest time coaches were matching up against Crosby and Malkin. You load all the talent there, and you're just making it easy for them.
 

Peat

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The comparison between HBK and Jake & Sid founders on the fact that the only reason HBK got split up was they started to suck real, real bad. And even then they got a ridiculous amount of time to try and put it right.

If Jake continues his current level of awesome with Sid, then its about the last combo you break up on the team. The only reason I can consider it is that SCH looked awesome too and we might need Jake to play some centre from time to time, if he can at this level, but even then Horny and Sid no longer look a goer which negates the first.

Right now, Jake looks to be the long term winger for Sid we've all been praying for. As long as that looks true, their time apart will be minimal and rightly so, even if it would be cool seeing Jake drive his own line and Sheary is nearly as good as being Sid's winger (at his best, as good imo, just a consistency issue).

In any case, my guess is once Sprong is deemed ready, Kessel becomes the driving force on line 3.


As for some of the points projections... our top 6 ppg players last season put up a combined pace of about 470 last season. Now, I know its harder to put up the points over 82 than 41, but equally its harder to put up points without Letang than it is with. Projections for "What if everyone was fully fit" should be high imo because that's what all the data said. This is a ridiculously loaded offensive team, loaded in a way I don't think we've seen in the salary cap era, and if everyone could stay fit it could do some startling and ugly things to other teams.

Obviously there will be a lot of injuries. There will be some lulls in consistency too because everyone's a bit jaded and will be thinking a little too much about next April. Even so, the numbers should be high. I think the top 9 should produce a stronger cumulative pace, because more Guentzel, more Letang, Kessel and Hagelin getting their mojo back and the promise of Sprong down the line.

And because injuries happen, the 3rd line wingers will get plenty of shots at the top 6 to help bump up their points. Nobody's gonna be posting whole seasons from the 3rd line.

As for whether this compensates for losses to centre depth... we'll see. Even the best players can't drag a pylon to points all the time. The point at which it will hurt most is when Sid/Geno gets injured. That said if the centres can play a bit and they can click with the wingers, then the wingers can handle most of the work. I think people are being too down on Rust/Sheary as 3rd liners in particular, we've seen them there and they can kick start their own offence against those match-ups. I also think they'll get a bit of help from having Sid & Geno wear down opposition dmen and the goaltender.

And... without wishing to seem like I'm down on him, but Bonino's ES production at 3C will not be hard to replace. His ability to put up points at 2C might be, and his ability to put up points on the PP might be, but not what he did last season at 3C ES zone starts or no. I'd also be kinda curious to see what Cullen's pace looks like from just the games he played 4C in, I know he got a decent amount of points from the games Sid missed at the season's start and he scored 7 in 11 down the final stretch when Geno was absent. Again, I'm guessing that Cullen's actual production while at 4C wasn't amazing unreplaceable either (although probably top of the range).

Their ability to play up the line up and post points will certainly be missed when Sid/Geno aren't there. But their production when they were there is, I think, as far as I can tell from lazy stat checking, was just average to good for their zone starts. If 3C and 4C can continue to hold their end while chipping in a few points here and there, we're good while Sid/Geno are fit. And yes, that does mean whichever wingers are with them will see dips too, but they'll make hay when in the top 6.
 

HandshakeLine

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The same thing was said about HBK last year.

So we should never give lines that have had chemistry in the past a chance because Bonino and Kessel and Hagelin each became a flaming pit of garbage for various other reasons? :dunno:

This board would try to break up the Stevens-Lemieux-Jagr line in its prime because one time another line disappointed them.
 

PensandCaps

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If for some reason we can only keep one, I'd trade Sheary and give his contract to Rust. 3 million is fair for Rust. He's a very important player, More important than Sheary. I still don't get how Rust is under appreciated on here.
 

HandshakeLine

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The comparison between HBK and Jake & Sid founders on the fact that the only reason HBK got split up was they started to suck real, real bad. And even then they got a ridiculous amount of time to try and put it right.

If Jake continues his current level of awesome with Sid, then its about the last combo you break up on the team. The only reason I can consider it is that SCH looked awesome too and we might need Jake to play some centre from time to time, if he can at this level, but even then Horny and Sid no longer look a goer which negates the first.

Right now, Jake looks to be the long term winger for Sid we've all been praying for. As long as that looks true, their time apart will be minimal and rightly so, even if it would be cool seeing Jake drive his own line and Sheary is nearly as good as being Sid's winger (at his best, as good imo, just a consistency issue).

In any case, my guess is once Sprong is deemed ready, Kessel becomes the driving force on line 3.

This is both more eloquently said and less snarky than I. But it's crazy to me how people don't even want to give that first line a chance because of reasons.

No line is going to be 100% on all the time, and in the playoffs, teams key in on lines that produce. That's the time to switch up lines. But why not actually give Sid a winger that actually has chemistry with him for once? There's an entire season to try line combinations if they falter. Might as well actually not shoot ourselves in the foot to start a season for once, IMO.
 

HandshakeLine

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While we're still riffing on the HBK/Gunz-Croz issue, I think one of the issues is that on HBK, only Kessel was the only legit top-6 talent, despite Nashville's plans for Bonino. When Bonino went cold, and then Hagelin couldn't shot for **** and Kessel checked out, nothing was going to work on that line. It was a line that caught fire and then came back to earth, which happens all the time in this league for lines that are not the primary scoring line.

Guentzel has unmistakable top-6 talent and production in his time (which is not to say he won't stumble this year at all), while also playing the game like Sid-- which is important IMO. So, the risk of he and Sid stumbling for extended HBK-esque stretches is way less likely, and Sid and Gunz's games compliment each other too well. Sheary, for all of his gumption, is more of a mid-to-late period Mark Recchi in my eyes-- he's a hardworking, smallish wing with some above average goal scoring skill but isn't a bona-fide sniper like Kessel. I suspect (and maybe I'll be completely wrong) that his production won't change a whole lot if you shuffle him around with productive centers. He can't carry a line, he'll produce fine, but he won't elevate a good line into an amazing line. Guenzel has the potential to do that. So that's the long-winded (and possibly completely wrong) reasoning behind why I'd keep Guenzel with Crosby and move Sheary down/trade him for a crucial piece on the deadline.

I don't however, understand why Sheary is considered less valuable than Rust. At least, not yet.
 

Ogrezilla

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While we're still riffing on the HBK/Gunz-Croz issue, I think one of the issues is that on HBK, only Kessel was the only legit top-6 talent, despite Nashville's plans for Bonino. When Bonino went cold, and then Hagelin couldn't shot for **** and Kessel checked out, nothing was going to work on that line. It was a line that caught fire and then came back to earth, which happens all the time in this league for lines that are not the primary scoring line.

Guentzel has unmistakable top-6 talent and production in his time (which is not to say he won't stumble this year at all), while also playing the game like Sid-- which is important IMO. So, the risk of he and Sid stumbling for extended HBK-esque stretches is way less likely, and Sid and Gunz's games compliment each other too well. Sheary, for all of his gumption, is more of a mid-to-late period Mark Recchi in my eyes-- he's a hardworking, smallish wing with some above average goal scoring skill but isn't a bona-fide sniper like Kessel. I suspect (and maybe I'll be completely wrong) that his production won't change a whole lot if you shuffle him around with productive centers. He can't carry a line, he'll produce fine, but he won't elevate a good line into an amazing line. Guenzel has the potential to do that. So that's the long-winded (and possibly completely wrong) reasoning behind why I'd keep Guenzel with Crosby and move Sheary down/trade him for a crucial piece on the deadline.

I don't however, understand why Sheary is considered less valuable than Rust. At least, not yet.

I'd say a few things factor in to it.

1. Sheary is the better scorer for sure, but he really doesn't bring much else. Rust is a guy that is helping the team even when not scoring.
2. We have more guys that score than we have guys who can bring all the things Rust can bring imo.
3. While Sheary has dropped off in both playoff runs, Rust has stepped up huge.
4. Rust can play anywhere. He's effective on any line in any situation. Sheary has so far put up most of his points with Sid. Now that's not a bad thing, but I want to see him be effective other places in the line-up. Can he play well with Geno at least? I'd think so, but we haven't really seen it. I actually think he'd be a good 3rd liner too if we made our 3rd line a bit more offensive. But it's still just something we haven't seen much of.

I'd say they are on a similar level overall. But if you made me pick one to keep for the next 5 years, I'd pick Rust. #3 is the kicker for me. Though I really like both, so I hope we keep both.
 

Peat

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This is both more eloquently said and less snarky than I. But it's crazy to me how people don't even want to give that first line a chance because of reasons.

No line is going to be 100% on all the time, and in the playoffs, teams key in on lines that produce. That's the time to switch up lines. But why not actually give Sid a winger that actually has chemistry with him for once? There's an entire season to try line combinations if they falter. Might as well actually not shoot ourselves in the foot to start a season for once, IMO.

Sounds boring, lets go trade for Kunitz and repurpose him at 3C.

edit: I'd like to say, I do get where people are coming from. I think I've shown interest in the idea of using Guentzel as 3C here at times. And if you go stat watching, there's an argument Guentzel wasn't in Sid's top 2 RS wingers last year. Just, when I sit down and think about it, I can't see past starting with what worked last season and working it out from there. Like we did with HBK. If anything, that comparison strengthens my belief that you start Guentzel with Sid.
 
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