Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Countdown to Free Agency (Cap Details + Links in First Post)

[mpp9]

Would much rather bring in a big body with some skill for a depth role like Pouliot. He can still occasionally make plays. The 4th line is allowed to do that despite what we saw last year from Rowney and Kuhn.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Roussel would be a much better option for the 4th if we're going the "grit" route.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Even this year, it wasn't always Kessel on the 3rd line. Malkin was literally on Kessel's most frequent line this past season: DobberHockey Presents FrozenPool's NHL Line Combinations

That doesn't disprove my point. You'd have a lot more convincing of an argument by pointing out that Guentzel-Sheahan-Kessel was Kessel's 2nd most common line combination.

I can't remember how many players unavailable we had when Kuhnhackl got his shot with Geno, but I really don't think its making up things to say that at some point Sully's line lottery machine will kick out "Best board play LW in the top 6".

If that guy is Kunitz, he'll be there.

Also, "Put two best wingers on L3" is totally in the Sully line lottery machine as well.

I think Kunitz would probably play some in the top-6, but it will be due to injuries, not because Sullivan is being stupid. I also think the idea of the two best wingers on L3, like Guentzel-Sheahan-Kessel had, goes down with Brassard being the 3C. I think Sullivan did that because he didn't think he was getting enough offense out of a Sheahan centered 3rd line, I don't think he'd feel that's necessary with Brassard.

I think Crosby's #1 LW option will be Guentzel, #2 will be Sheary if he's not traded (can't rule out the possibility) and #3 will be Simon. I don't really view Kunitz playing with Crosby as a risk, I think Sullivan would go Simon there before Kunitz. My concern is Kunitz with Malkin, seeing how Sullivan has done things like Kuhnhackl on the 2nd line and Hagelin-Malkin-Hornqvist as a 2nd line. That's why adding a guy like Skinner would be a game changer. Without doing anything else, I think Malkin's #1 LW option is Hagelin and #2 is Rust (who I imagine would be traded for Skinner). Those guys can easily be supplanted by Kunitz because of Sullivan, but if you get Skinner? Suddenly, your clear #1 is Skinner and #2 is Hagelin. Sure, Kunitz still may jump Hagelin as #2, but it makes it a lot less likely that Kunitz becomes Malkin's actual LWer.

Roussel would be a much better option for the 4th if we're going the "grit" route.

The issue is that Roussel is going to cost dramatically more money than Kunitz would. Roussel's going to cost over $3 million a season, Kunitz back here would be near league minimum and filled with bonuses.

 

[Riptide]

Gonna throw this out there again:

Rust: 16 goals and 21 points in 58 games
Sheary: 6 goals and 19 points in 57 games

I really don't get this idea that Sheary has "sucked" in the playoffs. Why do people act like he has sucked in the playoffs while Rust has been this clutch playoff performer? Their production is nearly equal.

Because Rust brings a lot more to the table when he's not scoring, something Sheary doesn't do, and doesn't score enough to make up for that. This shouldn't be all that hard to understand.

A. Goals don't count for more than assists. Both result in 1 goal for your team.
B. Being better defensively doesn't result in 1 player sucking and one being a playoff warrior.
C. Based on their production, it's really baseless to say that Sheary goes any more AWOL in tight games than Rust does.

I feel like people overrate the hell out of Rust in the playoffs because he has gotten some goals in elimination games in the past, while underrated the hell out of Sheary because he's a whipping boy.

No it doesn't - because even when Rust isn't scoring, he's still helping the team. Sheary frequently does very little when he's not scoring, at which point he's next to useless.

I'm more of a fan of Sheary than most and I keep Rust over him 10 out of 10 times.

What about Hagelin? If both cost 3m, who do you keep? Personally if Sprong and Kessel and Guentzel are all here, I'd keep Hagelin.

 

[Peat]

ZAR was a rookie coming back from injury and he still scored the same number of points in about half as many games, which says about all you need to know.

And in a year, ZAR should be a better player, while Kunitz will probably be a worse one.

I'm not surprised we're considering Kunitz (we as in the board), but it's a mistake.

We should not be bringing in fourth liners we're not comfortable with promoting beyond the fourth line. That was our problem last year. At least it was excusable then, because we kept the people we had and who'd performed. Kunitz wouldn't be that.

All this "It would be okay if he was just a 4th liner" is, imo, kinda missing the point and merely confirming why he shouldn't be coming in.

I think Kunitz would probably play some in the top-6, but it will be due to injuries, not because Sullivan is being stupid. I also think the idea of the two best wingers on L3, like Guentzel-Sheahan-Kessel had, goes down with Brassard being the 3C. I think Sullivan did that because he didn't think he was getting enough offense out of a Sheahan centered 3rd line, I don't think he'd feel that's necessary with Brassard.

I think Crosby's #1 LW option will be Guentzel, #2 will be Sheary if he's not traded (can't rule out the possibility) and #3 will be Simon. I don't really view Kunitz playing with Crosby as a risk, I think Sullivan would go Simon there before Kunitz. My concern is Kunitz with Malkin, seeing how Sullivan has done things like Kuhnhackl on the 2nd line and Hagelin-Malkin-Hornqvist as a 2nd line. That's why adding a guy like Skinner would be a game changer. Without doing anything else, I think Malkin's #1 LW option is Hagelin and #2 is Rust (who I imagine would be traded for Skinner). Those guys can easily be supplanted by Kunitz because of Sullivan, but if you get Skinner? Suddenly, your clear #1 is Skinner and #2 is Hagelin. Sure, Kunitz still may jump Hagelin as #2, but it makes it a lot less likely that Kunitz becomes Malkin's actual LWer.

All three of Crosby's LW options you list there bring a lot of the same qualities and if Sully thinks Sid needs a board play LW, all three would be axed in favour of the best board play LW we had. And we have seen Hagelin-Crosby-Hornqvist as well.

Ditto Malkin.

Maybe you're right that we wouldn't see Guentzel-Brassard-Kessel... but I'm not sure I'd rule that out.

Sully will totally put lines together based on player type rather than player quality. He's done it again and again. You're being real optimistic in thinking he'll stop doing that.

Really, the only sure answer to Kunitz not getting those minutes is for ZAR to be the best board play LW in the org. And the moment Guentzel/Hags/ZAR and Skinner/Sheary are all in Pittsburgh, either Kunitz is here as a 13th forward or he's taking valuable development time. I'm not sure he's up for being 13th forward.

Just... just no to Kunitz.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And in a year, ZAR should be a better player, while Kunitz will probably be a worse one.

I'm not surprised we're considering Kunitz (we as in the board), but it's a mistake.

We should not be bringing in fourth liners we're not comfortable with promoting beyond the fourth line. That was our problem last year. At least it was excusable then, because we kept the people we had and who'd performed. Kunitz wouldn't be that.

All this "It would be okay if he was just a 4th liner" is, imo, kinda missing the point and merely confirming why he shouldn't be coming in.

The problem with pointing out ZAR as a guy to play on the 4th line is that most people shouldn't be comfortable with him on the 4th line. He's a guy that needs to be used in a scoring line role, he's useless as a 4th liner. Kunitz put up 29 points as a 4th liner last year, Aston-Reese has generally looked like **** as a 4th liner.

ZAR should be in the Penguins top-9 next year if he's here, IMO. Assuming no Kunitz and that Rust and Sheary go out for Skinner, I'd want the Penguins to run with:

Guentzel-Crosby-Sprong
Skinner-Malkin-Hornqvist
ZAR-Brassard-Kessel
Hagelin-Sheahan-RW

 

[billybudd]

And in a year, ZAR should be a better player, while Kunitz will probably be a worse one.

I'm not surprised we're considering Kunitz (we as in the board), but it's a mistake.

We should not be bringing in fourth liners we're not comfortable with promoting beyond the fourth line. That was our problem last year. At least it was excusable then, because we kept the people we had and who'd performed. Kunitz wouldn't be that.

All this "It would be okay if he was just a 4th liner" is, imo, kinda missing the point and merely confirming why he shouldn't be coming in.

I think you'd be looking at Kunitz as an XOR for Kuhnhackl, not for Aston-Reese.

That said, I'm not crazy about this idea.

Kunitz hands are obviously gone, but the rest of his game has been perfectly fine for a 4th line LW. Probably a lot better than the average guy in that roster spot, all things considered. However, he's at the age where anything else could go at any minute.

When you can see that pebbles are rolling off a hill, you don't park your car there and hope you won't be caught in a landslide.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

That doesn't disprove my point. You'd have a lot more convincing of an argument by pointing out that Guentzel-Sheahan-Kessel was Kessel's 2nd most common line combination.

It proves that Kessel playing with Malkin is a regular thing, which means Skinner could well be on the 3rd when Sully throws the lines in a blender for depth's sake, which means Kunitz could well end up in the top 6 when that happens...and any amount of time in the top 6 is too much for Kunitz.

The issue is that Roussel is going to cost dramatically more money than Kunitz would.

If that's the case, we go with cheap youth. Kunitz adds absolutely nothing.

One of our main problems last year was too many bottom 6 plugs who couldn't score. How does a 38 year old who scored 1 point in 17 playoff games last season help that?

 

[Empoleon8771]

If that's the case, we go with cheap youth. Kunitz adds absolutely nothing.

One of our main problems last year was too many bottom 6 plugs who couldn't score. How does a 38 year old who scored 1 point in 17 playoff games last season help that?

Kunitz adds nothing? He had 29 points last season while being used solely in a 4th line role. Why are you focusing on his playoffs alone and ignoring his regular season production? The Penguins don't have any youth that would be better than him on the 4th line, that's the problem. ZAR's garbage as a 4th liner, Simon plays a completely different game, Kuhnhackl is just a worse version of Kunitz and that's about all the Penguins have.

The issue that the Penguins have right now is that they don't have any better options than a 39 year old Kunitz for their 4th line outside of Hagelin, which involves playing ZAR in the top-9. If they had a spare 2016 Kuhnhackl or Rust lying around, they'd have no need for Kunitz, but they don't.

 

[Jacob]

Yeah I like Roussel if my Kassian dream doesn’t come to fruition.

Between him, Oleksiak, ZAR, Horny, we’re not the hardest team to play against in the league by any stretch but if someone wants to play that game we can go tit-for-tat.

 

[Peat]

I think you'd be looking at Kunitz as an XOR for Kuhnhackl, not for Aston-Reese.

That said, I'm not crazy about this idea.

Kunitz hands are obviously gone, but the rest of his game has been perfectly fine for a 4th line LW. Probably a lot better than the average guy in that roster spot, all things considered. However, he's at the age where anything else could go at any minute.

When you can see that pebbles are rolling off a hill, you don't park your car there and hope you won't be caught in a landslide.

If by that you mean we're looking at Kunitz for 13th forward, I'm not a 100% against that... but still not crazy about the idea.

If we're talking about a contest between Kunitz and Kuhnhackl for 12th forward, then we should bring in a better player where there's no contest if at at all possible.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Kunitz adds nothing? He had 29 points last season while being used solely in a 4th line role. Why are you focusing on his playoffs alone and ignoring his regular season production? The Penguins don't have any youth that would be better than him on the 4th line, that's the problem. ZAR's garbage as a 4th liner, Simon plays a completely different game, Kuhnhackl is just a worse version of Kunitz and that's about all the Penguins have.

The issue that the Penguins have right now is that they don't have any better options than a 39 year old Kunitz for their 4th line outside of Hagelin, which involves playing ZAR in the top-9. If they had a spare 2016 Kuhnhackl or Rust lying around, they'd have no need for Kunitz, but they don't.

Because that's where our focus is?

I'll happily throw my lot in with youth over a 4th liner on the verge of 40 who put up a playoff performance like that last year.

I swear, between Sheary and Kunitz with you the last couple days...

 

[Empoleon8771]

Because that's where our focus is?

I'll happily throw my lot in with youth over a 4th liner on the verge of 40 who put up a playoff performance like that last year.

I swear, between Sheary and Kunitz with you the last couple days...

Again, who is that youth though? That's the problem, the Penguins options outside of Kunitz for the 4th line suck. There's no value in just being younger if they're not better players in that role. The Penguins don't have a 2016 Rust or Kuhnhackl ready to break onto the scene, they just don't have it in their system. Their options either don't fit a 4th line role or aren't good enough.

 

[Andy99]

We all agree we need to bring in a better winger than Kunitz....that’s not Kuhn, Simon or ZAR...we need to clear cap space to do that....the reality is we need to do whatever it takes to jettison Sheary and Hunwick even if we have to “pay” for it....if we can’t, Kunitz, if anything, may be all we can afford...

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Again, who is that youth though? That's the problem, the Penguins options outside of Kunitz for the 4th line suck. There's no value in just being younger if they're not better players.

We don't have any kind of sample size to make a determination like that. But we do have a large sample size of Kunitz sucking yet routinely being played above where he should.

Sheary and Kunitz had 3 total points between them in 29 playoff games last year. These aren't players you retain, they're players you huck off the side of the ship because they're bringing you down.

 

[billybudd]

If by that you mean we're looking at Kunitz for 13th forward, I'm not a 100% against that... but still not crazy about the idea.

If we're talking about a contest between Kunitz and Kuhnhackl for 12th forward, then we should bring in a better player where there's no contest if at at all possible.

I'm operating under the assumption Kuhnhackl won't be back next year.

 

[Pete Gas]

I had to check the year thought it was 2010 with mentions of bringing Kunitz and Orpik back.

 

[Jacob]

Kunitz looked really bad in the playoffs. Really bad. Like he had COPD or something.

 

[Empoleon8771]

We don't have any kind of sample size to make a determination like that. But we do have a large sample size of Kunitz sucking yet routinely being played above where he should.

Sheary and Kunitz had 3 total points between them in 29 playoff games last year. These aren't players you retain, they're players you huck off the side of the ship because they're bringing you down.

We have a very large sample size of Kuhnhackl sucking, so we do have that. We can see what kind of player Simon is, watching a larger sample size doesn't impact the kind of player he is. So basically that only applies to ZAR, who was horrendous on the 4th line last year after he came back from his injury. Yeah, that's not the kind of gamble I want to make on the 4th line.

And if you want to bring up playoff production from last year, ZAR had 1 point in 9 games last playoffs. Simon had 3 points in 8 games, all of which came with Crosby. Kuhnhackl had 0 points. Rust, Sheahan and Hagelin all had 3 points. I don't know why you're focusing so much on last year when ignoring 75% of the Penguins roster sucked with producing in the playoffs last year. You're saying no to Kunitz because he sucked in the playoffs last year, while ignoring that every other option the Penguins have also sucked in the playoffs last year. The only reason Kunitz is even being considered is that their options for the 4LW spot are so bad.

I had to check the year thought it was 2010 with mentions of bringing Kunitz and Orpik back.

I don't think anyone has suggested Orpik, or at least I really hope no one has

Kunitz looked really bad in the playoffs. Really bad. Like he had COPD or something.

I didn't watch Kunitz enough to compare him to ZAR, but ZAR was really, really bad in the playoffs last year too. I imagine Kunitz was terrible in the playoffs last year, because if he wasn't, Tampa Bay would probably want him back since he had a pretty solid regular season.

 

[Riptide]

Because Hagelin can't score, and if you can't score, no amount of defense matters.

And if you can't keep the puck out of your net, then unless you're Crosby/Malkin/Kessel good, your offense isn't good enough to make up for your lack of defense. And Sheary isn't that good offensively.

 

[66-30-33]

Yeah I like Roussel if my Kassian dream doesn’t come to fruition.

Between him, Oleksiak, ZAR, Horny, we’re not the hardest team to play against in the league by any stretch but if someone wants to play that game we can go tit-for-tat.

Roussel-Sheahan-Kassian 4th line?

 

[Peat]

I'm operating under the assumption Kuhnhackl won't be back next year.

I'm assuming he'll be back and contending for a spot unless used in a trade for whatever reason. Hopefully that's actually contending with other guys and he gets waived if he loses out.


Incidentally, while we're talking potential 4th liners, I hope they consider Jooris for 13th forward. He didn't produce anything, but he made a big positive impression on me and I like his versatility.

 

[Gurglesons]

Why are we getting Kassian? The whole reason we don’t want to keep Rust is because we don’t want to pay 3 mil for a 4th line.

So we bring in a 2 mil dollar RW that is worse and prone to bad penalties.

 

[Riptide]

Would rather have Zucker or Tatar than Skinner.

I can understand Zucker... but there's no way I could get behind Tatar. Skinner is better in every measure then him.

 

[Peat]

While we're bringing up moves that we know will make people gag, Winnik is a UFA, has been scoring at a rate of over 20 the last few seasons, and only made league minimum on his last contract so good luck to him commanding more than a million this time round.