Speculation: Sabres Talk - Proposals, Speculation, Roster-shaping

[tsujimoto74]

Vanek-Hodgson-Pominville
Ott-Giroux-Leino (Armia)
Foligno-Ennis-Stafford

If you pull off that trade, you have a group of forwards that are worthy of the Cup, IMO.

And a d-core going forward of:
Sulzer-Ehrhoff
Regehr-Leo
Sekera-Weber
Pardy
McDerp
Pysyk

That group of D is probably worthy of a lottery pick. And likely to get worse before it gets better with 3 impending UFAs in the top 6.

 

[Jame]

And a d-core going forward of:
Sulzer-Ehrhoff
Regehr-Leo
Sekera-Weber
Pardy
McDerp
Pysyk

That group of D is probably worthy of a lottery pick. And likely to get worse before it gets better with 3 impending UFAs in the top 6.

Essentially, your opinion is that you wouldn't trade Myers for 1 of the best Centers in the game...

 

[NotABadPeriod]

Id do that trade for Giroux, but I'd try to negotiate the price down some (as in that would not be my starting offer). I do have some concerns that Giroux just had a great one year, but worst case scenario you're getting a guy who's a 70 point center. I don't like the idea of giving up star potential at multiple positions, I'd like to hold on to one of Grigs/Myers if possible, but it's not a dealbreaker. If it has to be both of them, I'd try to keep the 1st and give a lower pick.

 

[tsujimoto74]

Essentially, your opinion is that you wouldn't trade Myers for 1 of the best Centers in the game...

No, I wouldn't trade Myers, Grigorenko and our 1st round pick. But feel free to twist those words to your liking.

 

[Jame]

No, I wouldn't trade Myers, Grigorenko and our 1st round pick. But feel free to twist those words to your liking.

oh right... i forgot about the other 2 unproven assets that you wouldn't give up for arguably the best all around forward in the NHL

So you WOULD trade Myers straight up for Giroux, even though it would still leave our blueline in the mess that you demonstrated?

 

[Jame]

Id do that trade for Giroux, but I'd try to negotiate the price down some (as in that would not be my starting offer). I do have some concerns that Giroux just had a great one year, but worst case scenario you're getting a guy who's a 70 point center. I don't like the idea of giving up star potential at multiple positions, I'd like to hold on to one of Grigs/Myers if possible, but it's not a dealbreaker. If it has to be both of them, I'd try to keep the 1st and give a lower pick.

Philly would never touch that deal... negotiate it down? We'd have to add... a LOT.

 

[Jim Bob]

oh right... i forgot about the other 2 unproven assets that you wouldn't give up for arguably the best all around forward in the NHL

So you WOULD trade Myers straight up for Giroux, even though it would still leave our blueline in the mess that you demonstrated?

Who's believing an argument that Giroux is the best all around forward in the NHL?

The guy has one monster year and one really good year on his resume and that's it.

He's also outside the top 100 in scoring so far this season.

He's also a secondary PKer on the Flyers.

I could see him being on the same level as Vanek and Pominville on the Sabres and not the best player on the team that can change the club's fortunes.

I would be really wary of dealing Grigorenko and the 2013 1st in a deal for him.

 

[kirby11]

Who's believing an argument that Giroux is the best all around forward in the NHL?

The guy has one monster year and one really good year on his resume and that's it.

He's also outside the top 100 in scoring so far this season.

He's also a secondary PKer on the Flyers.

I could see him being on the same level as Vanek and Pominville on the Sabres and not the best player on the team that can change the club's fortunes.

I would be really wary of dealing Grigorenko and the 2013 1st in a deal for him.

He's also scored 55 points in 50 playoff games. He elevates his game when he needs to

 

[Jame]

Who's believing an argument that Giroux is the best all around forward in the NHL?

Non stat sheet whoring hockey people

 

[Jame]

If I had a choice of ONE forward to build my franchise around... my first choice would be Malkin... my second choice would be Giroux... (followed by Tavares and Stamkos)

 

[Eichel 9]

Anyone that wouldn't trade Myers and an unproven prospect for one of the best players in the league is crazy. Also when you factor in that Myer's future is very uncertain and he has a big contract for the player he is at the moment.

 

[tsujimoto74]

Anyone that wouldn't trade Myers and an unproven prospect for one of the best players in the league is crazy. Also when you factor in that Myer's future is very uncertain and he has a big contract for the player he is at the moment.

I would absolutely trade that package if we truly were getting one of the best players in the game, but I'm not sold that Giroux is that.
Giroux has only had one elite season, and his second best isn't any better than what we already get out of Vanek and Pominville. His playoff stats are nice, but the odds that this team even makes the playoffs aren't that good, and I don't think they get better by adding G. (Our problem this year is how many goals we allow, not that we don't score enough of our own, which Giroux doesn't fix.)
Not to mention our need at center is getting way overblown here. Hodgson has complemented Vanek and Pommer nicely, and Ennis is our most productive player not on that line. What we lack there is an effective defensive guy.

If I'm trading the 2 highest potential pieces the Sabres have, I want an top-notch defenseman coming back. Because if Myers isn't that guy, then that's our biggest need.

 

[HockeyH3aven]

If I had a choice of ONE forward to build my franchise around... my first choice would be Malkin... my second choice would be Giroux... (followed by Tavares and Stamkos)

Mine goes:

Crosby
Malkin
Stamkos
Tavares
Giroux

 

[Jim Bob]

He's also scored 55 points in 50 playoff games. He elevates his game when he needs to

I heard that about Leino once upon a time....

 

[Eichel 9]

Mine goes:

Crosby
Malkin
Stamkos
Tavares
Giroux

I think that's how mine would go as well. The only reasonable explanation for picking Giroux instead of Crosby would be health concerns.

 

[Jim Bob]

Non stat sheet whoring hockey people

More like people with a really short memory.

Datsyuk has been a better all-around player for a lot longer than Giroux.

And that's not even getting into guys like Crosby, Zetterberg, E Staal, and others.

 

[Eichel 9]

More like people with a really short memory.

Datsyuk has been a better all-around player for a lot longer than Giroux.

And that's not even getting into guys like Crosby, Zetterberg, E Staal, and others.

Those guys other than Crosby are all older now, if I'm picking a franchise player right now four our future, I'd prefer him to be 25 or younger.

 

[1972]

Giroux over Crosby? The only way you do that is if you believe Crosby has health issues moving forward.

Giroux is one of my favourite centers in the game but their are 4 guys I easily take over him.

Crosby
Stamkos
Malkin
Tavares

And no I wouldnt move Myers, Grigorenko and a lottery pick for Giroux, neither would the Flyers

 

[Jim Bob]

Those guys other than Crosby are all older now, if I'm picking a franchise player right now four our future, I'd prefer him to be 25 or younger.

The comment I was addressing was that Giroux was one of the best all-around players in the game today.

The original statement wasn't about building a team around a player.

Those are two completely different discussions.

 

[Jame]

More like people with a really short memory.

Datsyuk has been a better all-around player for a lot longer than Giroux.

And that's not even getting into guys like Crosby, Zetterberg, E Staal, and others.

Dats is going back to russia in 2 years
Crosby is one bad hit away from scrambled eggs
Zetterberg is aging fast

E Staal? i thought we were talking about all around play?

the point is we are a rebuilding team and Giroux is a 2 yr old franchise stud

 

[Jame]

"i checked on NHL.com and Giroux has only had 1 elite season... I'd rather keep my 3 NO elite season talents."



If you are watching the Buffalo Sabres over the last say... 5 years. And you also watch non Buffalo Sabres hockey.... AND you wouldn't do absolutely ANYTHING in terms of assets to get Claude Giroux... then you clearly have no idea... you just don't get it. you don't get it at all... the game is a mystery to you. you can't understand why our franchise is a joke. maybe some draft picks and UFA signings will fix it in your mind... I don't know... I really don't. It's MIND BOGGLING to me.

The idea that we wouldn't trade a melting down Tyler Myers with a potentially horrendous contract, a completely unproven Grigorenko... and oh my god a lottery pick where we may draft the next Cam Barker or James Sheppard... OH NO!!! we can't give up this slew of "maybe" for a guy over the last 2 years has proven to be a complete young superstar with leadership and skill and a playoff performer...

shoot me in the face...

I know it's a pointless argument... because Philly wouldn't trade Giroux for all of our pretty stuff. But the denial is annoying nonetheless

 

[HockeyH3aven]

"i checked on NHL.com and Giroux has only had 1 elite season... I'd rather keep my 3 NO elite season talents."



If you are watching the Buffalo Sabres over the last say... 5 years. And you also watch non Buffalo Sabres hockey.... AND you wouldn't do absolutely ANYTHING in terms of assets to get Claude Giroux... then you clearly have no idea... you just don't get it. you don't get it at all... the game is a mystery to you. you can't understand why our franchise is a joke. maybe some draft picks and UFA signings will fix it in your mind... I don't know... I really don't. It's MIND BOGGLING to me.

The idea that we wouldn't trade a melting down Tyler Myers with a potentially horrendous contract, a completely unproven Grigorenko... and oh my god a lottery pick where we may draft the next Cam Barker or James Sheppard... OH NO!!! we can't give up this slew of "maybe" for a guy over the last 2 years has proven to be a complete young superstar with leadership and skill and a playoff performer...

shoot me in the face...

I know it's a pointless argument... because Philly wouldn't trade Giroux for all of our pretty stuff. But the denial is annoying nonetheless

You are the king of hyperbole Jame.

. He had one good season. "Playoff performer" is a myth. Just like Leino is a great playoff performer, right? It can't possibly be that he played well in a small sample size right? Obviously there's some magical "clutch factor" that exists, and that for some reason when somebody else tells them the games are more important they magically get better. It must be that.

I agree he's a very talented player, but I'm not willing to crown him a superstar because he had a very good offensive year on a team loaded with other offensive talent that played a very aggressive system.

Still, I agree with you. I'd do Myers+Grigo+1st for Giroux even if he turned out to be Jason Spezza 2.0

 

[vcv]

You are the king of hyperbole Jame.

. He had one good season. "Playoff performer" is a myth. Just like Leino is a great playoff performer, right? It can't possibly be that he played well in a small sample size right?

Claude Giroux's last 4 playoff performances:
2008-2009 - 6gp 2-3-5
2009-2010 - 23gp 10-11-21
2010-2011 - 11gp 1-11-12
2011-2012 - 10gp 8-9-17

Yeah, very small sample size and those 55pts in 50 games are a myth.

Ville Leino, in comparison:
2009-2010 - 19gp 7-14-21
2010-2011 - 11gp 3-2-5

 

[dma0034]

I'd be willing to trade Myers, Grigorenko and a 1st for Giroux.... I'd even buy Holmgren dinner first.

 

[HockeyH3aven]

Claude Giroux's last 4 playoff performances:
2008-2009 - 6gp 2-3-5
2009-2010 - 23gp 10-11-21
2010-2011 - 11gp 1-11-12
2011-2012 - 10gp 8-9-17

Yeah, very small sample size and those 55pts in 50 games are a myth.

Ville Leino, in comparison:
2009-2010 - 19gp 7-14-21
2010-2011 - 11gp 3-2-5

His career production so far has been around there. He's slightly above PPG in 55 games. That's not even a full NHL season.

Playing well in the playoffs in the past doesn't mean you're magically going to be much better in them even if your regular season production slips. He's a very good player capable of putting up a Point Per Game and did so in a sample size less than an entire season.

Now, if Drew Stafford scored 55 points in 50 playoff games but otherwise was a 40-50 point guy in the regular season you might be on to something.