Speculation: Sabres Roster Speculation - Pre-season 2023 Edition

[MOGlLNY]

You aren't wrong about fixing the team D. We are horrid in our own zone.

Vegas is a good example that a strong Defense and structure will make the goalies look good. If we were to sign Aiden Hill this summer, his numbers here would be meh. If we traded for Hellebuyck, he wouldn't be a Veznia candidate here behind our D.

But, the idea that we are unable to evaluate any goaltenders after an 82 game season seems a bit off. We just have to look at our goaltending in context. We have goaltending experts (at least I hope we do) that can give a fair evaluation.

Overall, we need to take a dual track here. Improve the team defense via personnel and coaching changes. Improve the goaltending that way as well.

The goalies have shown us who they are.

Comrie is, before coming here, was, at best, a good backup. He's really done nothing to dispel that evaluation.

Before this year, the book on UPL for the Amerks is that he was inconsistent. Hot and cold. I mean...what did he do this year to really change that? He was hot for a few months...and he was bad for a few months.

We don't have the luxury available to 'wait and see' on goaltending. Are they as bad as their raw numbers suggest? No. But...do we have a goalie on our roster who you want starting 50-60 games? Also no.

Evaluate what we have and find an upgrade. If you want to have Levi fight for a spot, that's fine. But...have it be behind an established starter and one of UPL/Comrie and Levi compete for the tandem/backup spot if you want to go that route. What you can't do is run back Comrie and UPL and either just hope they get better or pray Levi is ready for a NHL starters role. That is asking for a disaster.

Pretty much exactly my thoughts and hope players told Adams the same in the end of the season meetings

 

[Irie]

You aren't wrong about fixing the team D. We are horrid in our own zone.

Vegas is a good example that a strong Defense and structure will make the goalies look good. If we were to sign Aiden Hill this summer, his numbers here would be meh. If we traded for Hellebuyck, he wouldn't be a Veznia candidate here behind our D.

But, the idea that we are unable to evaluate any goaltenders after an 82 game season seems a bit off. We just have to look at our goaltending in context. We have goaltending experts (at least I hope we do) that can give a fair evaluation.

Overall, we need to take a dual track here. Improve the team defense via personnel and coaching changes. Improve the goaltending that way as well.

The goalies have shown us who they are.

Comrie is, before coming here, was, at best, a good backup. He's really done nothing to dispel that evaluation.

Before this year, the book on UPL for the Amerks is that he was inconsistent. Hot and cold. I mean...what did he do this year to really change that? He was hot for a few months...and he was bad for a few months.

We don't have the luxury available to 'wait and see' on goaltending. Are they as bad as their raw numbers suggest? No. But...do we have a goalie on our roster who you want starting 50-60 games? Also no.

Evaluate what we have and find an upgrade. If you want to have Levi fight for a spot, that's fine. But...have it be behind an established starter and one of UPL/Comrie and Levi compete for the tandem/backup spot if you want to go that route. What you can't do is run back Comrie and UPL and either just hope they get better or pray Levi is ready for a NHL starters role. That is asking for a disaster.

I love this team, but I do not think any UFA goalie is signing with the team after last season, and no one that will be a difference maker with the current D will be available in a realistic Adams trade. So options will be limited.

I would definitely be on board with your "dual-track" plan, and finding an NHL defensive assistant coach to fix the D zone coverage and PK is probably the easier track to start. Hiring the right assistant may actually increase the likelihood of goalies not exercising NTCs, making the other track a bit less painful.

 

[Jim Bob]

I love this team, but I do not think any UFA goalie is signing with the team after last season, and no one that will be a difference maker with the current D will be available in a realistic Adams trade. So options will be limited.

I would definitely be on board with your "dual-track" plan, and finding an NHL defensive assistant coach to fix the D zone coverage and PK is probably the easier track to start. Hiring the right assistant may actually increase the likelihood of goalies not exercising NTCs, making the other track a bit less painful.

I think it will take time to turn the Sabres into an attractive landing spot for goalies.

And honestly, with Levi in the mix, I doubt that is something that becomes an issue unless the nightmare scenario occurs where neither UPL nor Levi develop into a solid NHL #1 for this team.

I believe there is a huge need for a veteran upgrade over Comrie. But, they only need a 2-3 year bridge answer. I do not know if you can get that in FA, even if they attempt to give a well above market 2-3 year deal to someone like Frederik Andersen.

 

[Jim Bob]

 

[Uberpecker]

Crouse is a player I'd look to give up quite a bit for. He's a power forward and about to reach untouchable status.

I'm wondering if Cozens can be that player for us.

Now obviously he won't center himself, but we've seen both Thompson having chemistry with Cozens as well as Mitts playing outstanding as the 1C between Skinner and Tuch, even if both happened during limited stretches.

But let's assume for a second that Mitts gets another look on the top line and keeps doing what he did to close out the season. That would leave Tage and Cozens for the 2nd line.

Between the two of them I'd prefer Thompson in the middle and Dylan along the boards but they could as well shift as needed. Give them a speedy playmaker, e.g. JJ on the other wing and that looks like the makings of a 1b line to me.

The third line with Greenway, Krebs and Quinn looks balanced and promising to me as well. Three young high potentials who haven't broken out yet, sheltered behind that high-octane top 6, I'd expect quite a bit of secondary scoring from them.

To summarize:

Skinner Mitts Tuch
JJ Tage Cozens
Greenway Krebs Quinn

 

[Ace]

I dont understand how "yeah they're bad...but if we improve everyone else we can limit their damage" is a plan anyone thinks is good. Improve the team in front...of course. Improve the goalies too. We know they aren't good. Isn't that what you Improve on?

Also...believing the team can improve shutting down teams and it won't come at the cost of some offense is ridiculous. So we can take a few good chances against away at the cost of a few good chances for. Great. Comrie and UPL are still going to let in more than they should and now you aren't scoring your way out of trouble as easily.

The captain of the team is out there talking about the window opening and setting a cup goal as a standard. Comrie and UPL? Come on. Might as well nail the window shut

 

[TageGod]

I'm wondering if Cozens can be that player for us.

Now obviously he won't center himself, but we've seen both Thompson having chemistry with Cozens as well as Mitts playing outstanding as the 1C between Skinner and Tuch, even if both happened during limited stretches.

But let's assume for a second that Mitts gets another look on the top line and keeps doing what he did to close out the season. That would leave Tage and Cozens for the 2nd line.

Between the two of them I'd prefer Thompson in the middle and Dylan along the boards but they could as well shift as needed. Give them a speedy playmaker, e.g. JJ on the other wing and that looks like the makings of a 1b line to me.

The third line with Greenway, Krebs and Quinn looks balanced and promising to me as well. Three young high potentials who haven't broken out yet, sheltered behind that high-octane top 6, I'd expect quite a bit of secondary scoring from them.

To summarize:

Skinner Mitts Tuch
JJ Tage Cozens
Greenway Krebs Quinn

I just cant even with this post. Do you seriously expect them to drop their 1C to 2C and their already great 2C to winger, opening up a hole down the middle, just to put Casey on the top line after 8 games of being inflated by Tuch and Skinner? Tage only came off top line for injury reasons.

 

[Uberpecker]

I just cant even with this post. Do you seriously expect them to drop their 1C to 2C and their already great 2C to winger, opening up a hole down the middle, just to put Casey on the top line after 8 games of being inflated by Tuch and Skinner? Tage only came off top line for injury reasons.

Don't worry. Tage is our best forward either way and ever since he was shifted to C he's shown chemistry with pretty much everyone he's played with.
He'll get his minutes no matter what line he's on, in fact, his line will likely be considered the top line, regardless.

By the same token, I'm pretty sure, Cozens won't lose his efficiency just because he plays the wing.

In this hypothetical scenario, it's about mixing and matching the wealth of young high potential forwards we already have in order to bring out the best in everyone, after all, Granato's best feature as a coach so far has been doing just that.

So why not let him try to do with Casey what he did with Tage.

Also league-wide, it's not uncommon to have one of your best forwards on a line other than the "1st line": Malkin, Pasternak, Draisaitl, Tkachuk, Necas, P.Kane, J. Hughes,... to only name a few.

Finally, a coach isn't married to his line combos for the whole season. It's about finding what works and about flexibility.

 

[Der Jaeger]

I'm wondering if Cozens can be that player for us.

Now obviously he won't center himself, but we've seen both Thompson having chemistry with Cozens as well as Mitts playing outstanding as the 1C between Skinner and Tuch, even if both happened during limited stretches.

But let's assume for a second that Mitts gets another look on the top line and keeps doing what he did to close out the season. That would leave Tage and Cozens for the 2nd line.

Between the two of them I'd prefer Thompson in the middle and Dylan along the boards but they could as well shift as needed. Give them a speedy playmaker, e.g. JJ on the other wing and that looks like the makings of a 1b line to me.

The third line with Greenway, Krebs and Quinn looks balanced and promising to me as well. Three young high potentials who haven't broken out yet, sheltered behind that high-octane top 6, I'd expect quite a bit of secondary scoring from them.

To summarize:

Skinner Mitts Tuch
JJ Tage Cozens
Greenway Krebs Quinn

I think Crouse and Cozens are different types of players.

 

[TageGod]

Don't worry. Tage is our best forward either way and ever since he was shifted to C he's shown chemistry with pretty much everyone he's played with.
He'll get his minutes no matter what line he's on, in fact, his line will likely be considered the top line, regardless.

By the same token, I'm pretty sure, Cozens won't lose his efficiency just because he plays the wing.

In this hypothetical scenario, it's about mixing and matching the wealth of young high potential forwards we already have in order to bring out the best in everyone, after all, Granato's best feature as a coach so far has been doing just that.

So why not let him try to do with Casey what he did with Tage.

Also league-wide, it's not uncommon to have one of your best forwards on a line other than the "1st line": Malkin, Pasternak, Draisaitl, Tkachuk, Necas, P.Kane, J. Hughes,... to only name a few.

Finally, a coach isn't married to his line combos for the whole season. It's about finding what works and about flexibility.

Changing up sometimes is fine, but eventually you return to that line. We know how good that line is with a large sample size. We know the insane potential of a JJ Quinn Cozens line. We also know Mitts can be a reliable 3rd liner for young players now. You only mess with what works....when it doesn't work. Changing centers can have drastic changes on chemistry. I'd rather see Tuch move around the lineup to kickstart struggling lines.

 

[Diaspora]

The idea of a third line with Mitts, Savoie and Kulich should be terrifying to the seven other teams in the Atlantic.

Edit - in 2025.

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

I just cant even with this post. Do you seriously expect them to drop their 1C to 2C and their already great 2C to winger, opening up a hole down the middle, just to put Casey on the top line after 8 games of being inflated by Tuch and Skinner? Tage only came off top line for injury reasons.

Mitts became the most overrated sabre on the team over 12 games to end the season.

The idea of a third line with Mitts, Savoie and Kulich should be terrifying to the seven other teams in the Atlantic.

Edit - in 2025.

Ya but in the third period the Sabres will be rotating 2 lines until Okposo’s legs quite literally fall off his body. No one should want Kulich savoie Quinn peterka and krebs all trying to develop on an nhl roster. Then someone gets injured and your running krebs peterka Quinn savoie Kulich and more kids up for rochester. I swear people are so desperate to see 19 yr olds that they’ll sabotage the nhl club. Then I bet money they’ll be back at the trade deadline “Adams didn’t do enough to help this team.”

Nvm good edit

 

[joshjull]

Should Joker have been playing 18 minutes per game? If they swapped places do you think Joker would have even gotten to play 13 minutes a night for Tampa like Foote did?

You're continuing to give credit to players who earned high ice time on some awful Sabres rosters and acting like they should be paid the same as the players who earn similar ice time on better teams. Playing 18 minutes a night for the Sabres back then does not mean you're worth more the same as someone who played 18 minutes a night on even an average NHL team.

edit: I think earning 13 minutes on the 2020-21 TBL is worth a lot more than 18 minutes on the 2020-21 Sabres.

It's almost like if the Sabres had spent the money to pay actual NHL defensemen instead of rushing their prospects they wouldn't have had to overpay Joker or Bryson and the team would have been better. Which is my entire point.

You can think it all you want but thats not how defense works. I don‘t care what teams any two dmen play on. If one is playing 18mins a night and the other 13mins. The one playing 18mins a night has a much more difficult role/usage. Thats not an opinion. Thats a fact. How they play in those respective roles doesn’t change that gap in difficulty.

EDIT: Brought this from Okposo thread so it’s not further derailed.

 

[joshjull]

But that's what makes him such a good comparable for Joki

Foote sucks, so he doesn't see the ice much in TBL or NSH. Joki sucks, but it's the Sabres so he's in the top 4.

Below are their 1 year and 3 year charts.

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View attachment 713009


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The facts haven’t changed….. A 6/7 dman like Foote trying to establish himself in the NHL is not a comparable for a top 4 all situations dman (Joker). Whether Joker should have been one doesn’t matter. Its what he played and what his numbers are evaluating. And no, the charts above don’t dispute this.

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

Now that RJ is signed, what does everyone want to have calm and measured responses to now? We just going to go full
In on KO getting 2.5 mil or is it time to start asking why dahlin isn’t signed yet?

 

[HOOats]

Now that RJ is signed, what does everyone want to have calm and measured responses to now? We just going to go full
In on KO getting 2.5 mil or is it time to start asking why dahlin isn’t signed yet?

Fix the bloody cupholders!!

 

[WhereAreTheCookies]

Now that RJ is signed, what does everyone want to have calm and measured responses to now? We just going to go full
In on KO getting 2.5 mil or is it time to start asking why dahlin isn’t signed yet?

Gotta wait till after July 1st for the Dahlin grumbling.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The U23 talent under contract:

Dahlin
Samuelsson
Power

Johnson
Novilkov


Now imagine calling the defensive talent in this organization a weakness because we don’t have much when to comes to unsigned guys

 

[Ace]

You can list out the entire organization and there is still only those top 3 players that belong in an NHL top 4 anytime soon. They’re still missing the same piece right now that they’ve been missing the whole time. Maybe in 2-3 years that gets solved internally. What are we doing until then?

I don’t want to hear another round of not blocking prospects. None of the prospects are walking into a top 4 role this year. And time has long passed for winning not being a goal. And that involves preparing to win.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You can list out the entire organization and there is still only those top 3 players that belong in an NHL top 4 anytime soon. They’re still missing the same piece right now that they’ve been missing the whole time. Maybe in 2-3 years that gets solved internally. What are we doing until then?

And the lack of drafting of defensive players has NOTHING to do with that. Nothing. The complaints about the lack of draft picks on defense was silly and continues to be silly.

The lack of drafting defensive prospects has to with one thing: the talent in our unsigned prospects….which who cares. We can start drafting them now, our U23 talent is already excellent

We can chalk it up to another one of your complaints that slowly disappear because it ended up not mattering, and you can move on to another complaint…

 

[Fjordy]

It's good that Johnson signed a contract, but we still need a top 4 D in next season.

 

[NotABadPeriod]

Gotta wait till after July 1st for the Dahlin grumbling.

When have we ever waited for an actual deadline to do the grumbling? The grumbling over Johnson didn't wait until he closed the door on the Sabres, it started two years ago!

 

[MOGlLNY]

Kevyn Adams is a god damn bumbling disaster. How have Dahlin and Power not been signed yet? It's been 5 whole hours since Johnson signed!

Fix the bloody cupholders!!

hold on now, i dont even live in the area anymore and im pissed about this every time i come home for a holiday / to catch a game

 

[Ehran]

Kevyn Adams is a god damn bumbling disaster. How have Dahlin and Power not been signed yet? It's been 5 whole hours since Johnson signed!

Not to mention he hasn't even signed any of his '23 draft picks yet!

Slacker!!!

 

[BFLO]

You can think it all you want but thats not how defense works. I don‘t care what teams any two dmen play on. If one is playing 18mins a night and the other 13mins. The one playing 18mins a night has a much more difficult role/usage. Thats not an opinion. Thats a fact. How they play in those respective roles doesn’t change that gap in difficulty.

EDIT: Brought this from Okposo thread so it’s not further derailed.

The facts haven’t changed….. A 6/7 dman like Foote trying to establish himself in the NHL is not a comparable for a top 4 all situations dman (Joker). Whether Joker should have been one doesn’t matter. Its what he played and what his numbers are evaluating. And no, the charts above don’t dispute this.

So you think Joker is an established top 4 all situations dman? You think Joker would have gotten top 4 minutes in 2020-21 playing for a team other than the last place Sabres?

So you think Girgensons was a real 1C since he played 1C minutes for the Sabres in 2014-15? You think Girgensons 2014-15 comparables were Crosby, Backstrom and Tavares?

Or are you a reasonable person who see's that when a prospect is thrown into a position over their head, that it doesn't actually mean they are a 1C or Top 4 dman yet despite playing the minutes?

I don't think it's a stretch to say that on basically any other team in 2020-21, that Joker would have been a 6/7 dman trying to establish himself, just like Foote. Instead he was one of the top 4 dmen on a team that went on an 18 game winless streak.