Speculation: Sabres Roster Speculation - Pre-season 2023 Edition

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The chances they give up are as much about having a ton of offensive-minded forwards as it is the 4th guy in the top 4 D.

Vejmelka is another guy that might be a good fit among guys that might potentially be available.

Dustin Wolf is another guy that would be intriguing, but I doubt Craiger is open to moving him despite the log jam they have right now.
Dustin Wolf is a 2019/7th with six less games of NHL experience than Levi. No doubt he's a potential stud, but he is not "a good goalie with NHL experience who can save the season" if Levi doesn't work out

Vej only has a .900 save pct. To hear some say it, the Coyotes had a more rigorous defensive system than we did (which, honestly, doesn't sound right, but still).

I'm not convinced adding either of these is less risky than UPL/Comrie/Levi. And they will not come cheap.
 
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Has Nashville's defense collapsed or something? Saros is as good as Hellebuyck, but would he be behind the Sabres? What's the basis for that confidence?
If you watch the way that Saros wins, it is not by being big and taking up a lot of the net. He is one of the best skating goalies in the league and is what we hope Levi develops into. That is why Levi talked about meeting Saros and looking at the way Saros plays the game for how he wants to play in the NHL.

Dustin Wolf is a 2019/7th with six less games of NHL experience than Levi. No doubt he's a potential stud, but he is not "a good goalie with NHL experience who can save the season" if Levi doesn't work out

Vej only has a .900 save pct. To hear some say it, the Coyotes had a more rigorous defensive system than we did (which, honestly, doesn't sound right, but still).

I'm not convinced adding either of these is less risky than UPL/Comrie/Levi. And they will not come cheap.
Wolf has played over 100 AHL games. So while he has a tiny NHL resume, he has proven to be ready for NHL play.

He wouldn't be my first choice this off season. But, I would rather gamble on him than Comrie and would feel much better with Wolf & UPL in Buffalo and Levi in Rochester to start the season than some variation of UPL, Comrie, and Levi.
 
I have Rosen available as well as Ostlund (for a big trade like top 4 D) I know KA won't have Ostlund available for trade yet. As such a young team trading prospects is not the answer. When you know what your team is, and what you're missing, then you can look at prospects as assets. D is a glaring need and no prospects so an exception can be made. G is tricky to navigate this year. Savoie Kulich JJ Quinn Krebs all partially unknowns so in reality we have no idea what our top wingers are outside of Skinner and Tuch. A Team like Pittsburgh who is all in on cups trades prospects and picks. Now if Savoie Kulich JJ and Quinn all establish themselves then Rosen and Ostlund can be expendable assets to trade. The other issue is say Ostlund, is worth more to KA than he is to the league.
If all these players all develop…

That’s exactly my point, they probably won’t, they shouldn’t be expected to, and people need to stop looking at their value like that they are guaranteed to or are even expected to.
 
If all these players all develop…

That’s exactly my point, they probably won’t, they shouldn’t be expected to, and people need to stop looking at their value like that they are guaranteed to or are even expected to.
But the team does need some of them to. Can you think of a prospects value that dropped for us recently? Especially this team where prospects are developing well you don't just get rid of them. like I said, Rosen+ for a D works for me. JJ and Quinn are trending towards roster staples Kulich value is ballooning and Savoie is just a huge talent. Who do we trade? for what? I don't suppose you would trade Savoie for one year of Hellebuyck? What would you do with the prospects?
 
If you watch the way that Saros wins, it is not by being big and taking up a lot of the net. He is one of the best skating goalies in the league and is what we hope Levi develops into. That is why Levi talked about meeting Saros and looking at the way Saros plays the game for how he wants to play in the NHL.


Wolf has played over 100 AHL games. So while he has a tiny NHL resume, he has proven to be ready for NHL play.

He wouldn't be my first choice this off season. But, I would rather gamble on him than Comrie and would feel much better with Wolf & UPL in Buffalo and Levi in Rochester to start the season than some variation of UPL, Comrie, and Levi.

Conroy also indicated Wolf is in the Flames' plans for next year with the big club.
 
Conroy also indicated Wolf is in the Flames' plans for next year with the big club.
That was why I threw him out there as a "probably not available, but..." option.

Ultimately, the Sabres have been creating a very "goalie unfriendly" environment. And as such, there will not be a ton of goalies that look good behind them. So, fixing what happens in front of the goalies will open up the options to get better in goal, IMO.
 
That was why I threw him out there as a "probably not available, but..." option.

Ultimately, the Sabres have been creating a very "goalie unfriendly" environment. And as such, there will not be a ton of goalies that look good behind them. So, fixing what happens in front of the goalies will open up the options to get better in goal, IMO.

That's been my stance for more than a moment now, so you're preaching to the choir.
 
But the team does need some of them to. Can you think of a prospects value that dropped for us recently? Especially this team where prospects are developing well you don't just get rid of them. like I said, Rosen+ for a D works for me. JJ and Quinn are trending towards roster staples Kulich value is ballooning and Savoie is just a huge talent. Who do we trade? for what? I don't suppose you would trade Savoie for one year of Hellebuyck? What would you do with the prospects?
You can keep proving my point. This isn’t how the world works. It wasn’t how the nfl worked when everyone was saying wow beane can’t miss, it’s not the way the nhl works. This staff hasn’t had control long enough to make those conclusions and players who haven’t developed, did not come up in this groups systems. The point is there are no groups in any professional sport, in the history of professional sports, who hits on all their prospects. And I wonder why there isn’t a more robust discussion about what prospects can return better value trading them for developed players. Because I’ve been making the suggestion all season we should move 1 or 2 of these prospects to rebuilding teams for already developed versions. But as soon as you say “yes I’d trade Savoie” the flocks come in oh he’s untouchable.

Just like girgs was untouchable…
Folino was untouchable…
McCabe was untouchable…
Pysyk was untouchable…
Kassian was untouchable…

Now mitts is untouchable…
Cozens is untouchable (I agree with this one, good contract, good player)
Savoie is untouchable…
Kulich is untouchable…
Quinn is untouchable…
Peterka is untouchable…
There’s too many prospects there for them all to be untouchable period! Once you know what they are they aren’t worth as much anymore. We let the idea of what a prospect can become over ride the reality of what they’re likely to become. Perfect stands in the way of good.

The legend of big Zach Kassian….
 
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You can keep proving my point. This isn’t how the world works. It wasn’t how the nfl worked when everyone was saying wow beane can’t miss, it’s not the way the nhl works. This staff hasn’t had control long enough to make those conclusions and players who haven’t developed, did not come up in this groups systems. The point is there are no groups in any professional sport, in the history of professional sports, who hits on all their prospects. And I wonder why there isn’t a more robust discussion about what prospects can return better value trading them for developed players. Because I’ve been making the suggestion all season we should move 1 or 2 of these prospects to rebuilding teams for already developed versions. But as soon as you say “yes I’d trade Savoie” the flocks come in oh he’s untouchable.

Just like girgs was untouchable…
Folino was untouchable…
McCabe was untouchable…
Pysyk was untouchable…
Kassian was untouchable…

Now mitts is untouchable…
Cozens is untouchable (I agree with this one, good contract, good player)
Savoie is untouchable…
Kulich is untouchable…
Quinn is untouchable…
Peterka is untouchable…
There’s too many prospects there for them all to be untouchable period! Once you know what they are they aren’t worth as much anymore. We let the idea of what a prospect can become over ride the reality of what they’re likely to become. Perfect stands in the way of good.

The legend of big Zach Kassian….
There are reasons at certain points in time players are untouchable as I have stated. top 10 pick in the first year? not being traded. You ignored all the points about situations dictating availability of assets. When an organization prioritizes building and developing, especially with a young roster with so much uncertainty, you need those players because you can't guarantee say JJ and Quinn work out. If both flame out well dang we better not have traded Savoie and Kulich or all of a sudden our pool is not so flush. Frankly I consider just about every player drafted in the most recent draft as untouchable because KA will not trade them year one.
 
You can keep proving my point. This isn’t how the world works. It wasn’t how the nfl worked when everyone was saying wow beane can’t miss, it’s not the way the nhl works. This staff hasn’t had control long enough to make those conclusions and players who haven’t developed, did not come up in this groups systems. The point is there are no groups in any professional sport, in the history of professional sports, who hits on all their prospects. And I wonder why there isn’t a more robust discussion about what prospects can return better value trading them for developed players. Because I’ve been making the suggestion all season we should move 1 or 2 of these prospects to rebuilding teams for already developed versions. But as soon as you say “yes I’d trade Savoie” the flocks come in oh he’s untouchable.

Just like girgs was untouchable…
Folino was untouchable…
McCabe was untouchable…
Pysyk was untouchable…
Kassian was untouchable…

Now mitts is untouchable…
Cozens is untouchable (I agree with this one, good contract, good player)
Savoie is untouchable…
Kulich is untouchable…
Quinn is untouchable…
Peterka is untouchable…
There’s too many prospects there for them all to be untouchable period! Once you know what they are they aren’t worth as much anymore. We let the idea of what a prospect can become over ride the reality of what they’re likely to become. Perfect stands in the way of good.

The legend of big Zach Kassian….
How well did that trade work out in the end though.
 
You can keep proving my point. This isn’t how the world works. It wasn’t how the nfl worked when everyone was saying wow beane can’t miss, it’s not the way the nhl works. This staff hasn’t had control long enough to make those conclusions and players who haven’t developed, did not come up in this groups systems. The point is there are no groups in any professional sport, in the history of professional sports, who hits on all their prospects. And I wonder why there isn’t a more robust discussion about what prospects can return better value trading them for developed players. Because I’ve been making the suggestion all season we should move 1 or 2 of these prospects to rebuilding teams for already developed versions. But as soon as you say “yes I’d trade Savoie” the flocks come in oh he’s untouchable.

Just like girgs was untouchable…
Folino was untouchable…
McCabe was untouchable…
Pysyk was untouchable…
Kassian was untouchable…

Now mitts is untouchable…
Cozens is untouchable (I agree with this one, good contract, good player)
Savoie is untouchable…
Kulich is untouchable…
Quinn is untouchable…
Peterka is untouchable…
There’s too many prospects there for them all to be untouchable period! Once you know what they are they aren’t worth as much anymore. We let the idea of what a prospect can become over ride the reality of what they’re likely to become. Perfect stands in the way of good.

The legend of big Zach Kassian….
Foligno still hasn't been replaced so...he kinda was
 
Saros is the best case scenario.

There are not a lot of goalies that will look good behind the Sabres if they continue to give up the chances that they have on the regular over the past couple of seasons.
Saros would cost a ton to acquire and he absolutely would provide the best results in my mind, and that is exactly the reason I do not want Adams to acquire him... Acquiring Saros would allow Granato and the Staff to punt on addressing the teams biggest and most glaring issue- defensive zone coverage.

Saros makes them a playoff team, but they will never be a good playoff team until they tighten up in the D zone. This team needs structure in it's coverage. They can't just keep running their disruption pressure philosophy in today's NHL if they hope to find any real success.
 
Saros would cost a ton to acquire and he absolutely would provide the best results in my mind, and that is exactly the reason I do not want Adams to acquire him... Acquiring Saros would allow Granato and the Staff to punt on addressing the teams biggest and most glaring issue- defensive zone coverage.

Saros makes them a playoff team, but they will never be a good playoff team until they tighten up in the D zone. This team needs structure in it's coverage. They can't just keep running their disruption pressure philosophy in today's NHL if they hope to find any real success.
I can't see Trotz getting rid of Saros yet anyway. He seems like a build from the net out guy, and with an unproven Askarov it would go against how his teams have been run in the past. Not that he built them, but I'm sure he's had input, and almost always had solid goaltending and D.
 
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I genuinely can’t believe how many people watched Comrie and UPL play and think they’ll be fine if people in front of them give up less chances. Is there no one willing to actually discuss what these guys look like in net? Again I beg of you…tell me what you saw from these two players actual game that makes you believe it’s a good idea to bank Levi’s usage and another season on them. Seriously. Not…well…they give up a lot of good chances. What in the way these goalies handled anything makes MAYBE getting better at limiting chances mean anything? They aren’t the only goalies who had chances against them on this team or in the league. But they were about the worst at it.
 
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Levi being here makes addressing goalie more important. Not less. He’s a 21 year old rookie. Is he going to be pressed in to play because JaG #1 and JaG #2 are even worse options when he struggles? What if he gets sent down? Like…every goalie in the world? Just…roll with two players they didn’t trust to play important games down the stretch? Waste another year of good contracts and break our own NHL record for missing the playoffs?

Do we get to go after an NHL starting quality goalie the next year? Or will we run this back a third time where the Adams plan is goalies no one would confuse with a legit starting option? Or will turning 22 mean Levi is now can’t miss?

Christ…get a goalie.
 
I genuinely can’t believe how many people watched Comrie and UPL play and think they’ll be fine if people in front of them give up less chances.
Nah you are either misreading or purposefully miscontruing the argument people are making. The argument is that the Sabres are bad defensively, so a lot of goalies we could target will struggle here. As such the priority needs to be to fix the D corps and team D or it won't matter who we put in net. That's not close to the same thing as advocating for sticking with Comrie and UPL because they will be fine.

The only point people are making is that our issues are bigger than just goaltending. What you are doing is like if I said "I can't believe people on these boards are saying if we can just get a goalie the team is perfect". I know that isn't the argument you are making, just like you know nobody is making the argument that UPL and Comrie will be fine.
 
There are reasons at certain points in time players are untouchable as I have stated. top 10 pick in the first year? not being traded. You ignored all the points about situations dictating availability of assets. When an organization prioritizes building and developing, especially with a young roster with so much uncertainty, you need those players because you can't guarantee say JJ and Quinn work out. If both flame out well dang we better not have traded Savoie and Kulich or all of a sudden our pool is not so flush. Frankly I consider just about every player drafted in the most recent draft as untouchable because KA will not trade them year one.
Because your points are barely tangential to the argument I was making. I’ll just drop it since no one seems to be able grasp what I’m talking about anyway.
 
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Nah you are either misreading or purposefully miscontruing the argument people are making. The argument is that the Sabres are bad defensively, so a lot of goalies we could target will struggle here. As such the priority needs to be to fix the D corps and team D or it won't matter who we put in net. That's not close to the same thing as advocating for sticking with Comrie and UPL because they will be fine.

The only point people are making is that our issues are bigger than just goaltending. What you are doing is like if I said "I can't believe people on these boards are saying if we can just get a goalie the team is perfect". I know that isn't the argument you are making, just like you know nobody is making the argument that UPL and Comrie will be fine.
Again, I have already said many times that the problem is not only the defense, and not even only the forwards, who defend poorly. Anderson had a much better season than Comrie and UPL, with the same players and defense. So there is also a problem in Comrie and UPL. I think a goalie is needed and Adams seems to understand that. Upgrade defense and upgrade goaltender, if 41 year old Anderson looked not bad, then I think you can find not even the most expensive decent goaltender in the UFA or in the trade.
 
Nah you are either misreading or purposefully miscontruing the argument people are making. The argument is that the Sabres are bad defensively, so a lot of goalies we could target will struggle here. As such the priority needs to be to fix the D corps and team D or it won't matter who we put in net. That's not close to the same thing as advocating for sticking with Comrie and UPL because they will be fine.

The only point people are making is that our issues are bigger than just goaltending. What you are doing is like if I said "I can't believe people on these boards are saying if we can just get a goalie the team is perfect". I know that isn't the argument you are making, just like you know nobody is making the argument that UPL and Comrie will be fine.
I'll also add this - for me...I see that KA already went out and got Comrie last summer. Even though I don't like Comrie or that move, I see it as what's done is done and KA probably doesn't go out and get very aggressive to change that. I also see KA as being willing to give prospects/rookies a while to develop and improve...almost to a fault. Or it's a matter of simply trying to max out any value out of guys on entry-level contracts. So for KA to make a move requires him to go against his track record and I just don't see it.
Anderson was able to read the play better so could anticipate what would happen and act accordingly. Better team defense would allow UPL and Comrie to be more static and cover the net vice needing to go post to post which opens holes.
Anderson's experience in anticipating the cross-ice pass was about top-notch. I at least have some faith in UPL being able to develop that, with a big athletic body that's able to respond if his brain gets ahead of the play. I think it's worth waiting on him for that. I don't see much better in Comrie.
 
I genuinely can’t believe how many people watched Comrie and UPL play and think they’ll be fine if people in front of them give up less chances. Is there no one willing to actually discuss what these guys look like in net? Again I beg of you…tell me what you saw from these two players actual game that makes you believe it’s a good idea to bank Levi’s usage and another season on them. Seriously. Not…well…they give up a lot of good chances. What in the way these goalies handled anything makes MAYBE getting better at limiting chances mean anything? They aren’t the only goalies who had chances against them on this team or in the league. But they were about the worst at it.

I will try to explain it to you, but you have to understand goaltending.

Goaltending at the NHL level is 90% mental. All the goalies in the NHL are world class athletes that are the best in the world skill-wise.

Goalies should make saves from outside that they can see. If a goalie makes a save on a redirected puck, a screened shot, or a shot coming off of a cross ice feed, there is always going to be luck involved because all of those shots and anything shot from inside the dots is coming faster than any human can react to. Anyone that has played goal knows that your reactions are based on the location the puck is shot from and the lay and angle of the stick of the shooter, and not actually on the puck as it is on it's way to the net, so it is always a bit of a guessing game. Positioning is the equalizer. When there are uncovered opposition players near the net or unmarked on the other side of the ice, goalies have to play deeper, eliminating a lot of the advantage they have in being in position to stop shots.

Goalies that are confident play high in the crease and challenge shooters. Goalies on bad defensive teams sit deep in their nets, exposing a lot more open net area and hedge their positioning for passes because they know there is a wide open shooter on the far side who will tap the puck in behind them if the puck gets across the ice.

The mental aspect comes in to the discussion as there is frustration, when due to poor D, goaltenders are unable to play aggressive. When the D is not covering the passes, clearing the screens, or doing their jobs, goalies get pissed, rattled, and generally do not play well.

The general uneducated response is always, "well goalies get paid a lot, they should be able to focus and overcome bad D". Anderson is one of the best at staying cool when his team hangs him out to dry, but he has had years of playing for bad teams and has learned to not get rattled, but even he has games where you could see the frustration had him off of his game.

Now, here is what all of this means and the context in this debate - no one is actually saying Comrie or UPL are great goalies or the solution. What we are all saying is that the majority of goalies in the league are going to have their games fall apart when hung out to dry the way the Sabres hung Comrie out last season. Vejmelka was hung out to dry by the Coyotes(who are normally strong defensively in their own zone) at the end of the season, and his game was super inconsistent and he gave up some pretty uncharacteristically soft goals. That is what we expect to see if he is brought to Buffalo without fixing the defensive zone coverage.

Fix the D - the Team D. You can't blame a single defenseman or the goalie when there are three opposition forwards banging at the puck around the net, and your center is still out near the redline and no wingers covered for him). Once this D is addressed, the PK should be up at 80% or better, and then you can evaluate your goaltending.
 
Again, I have already said many times that the problem is not only the defense, and not even only the forwards, who defend poorly. Anderson had a much better season than Comrie and UPL, with the same players and defense. So there is also a problem in Comrie and UPL. I think a goalie is needed and Adams seems to understand that. Upgrade defense and upgrade goaltender, if 41 year old Anderson looked not bad, then I think you can find not even the most expensive decent goaltender in the UFA or in the trade.
I wasn't quoting you?
 
I will try to explain it to you, but you have to understand goaltending.

Goaltending at the NHL level is 90% mental. All the goalies in the NHL are world class athletes that are the best in the world skill-wise.

Goalies should make saves from outside that they can see. If a goalie makes a save on a redirected puck, a screened shot, or a shot coming off of a cross ice feed, there is always going to be luck involved because all of those shots and anything shot from inside the dots is coming faster than any human can react to. Anyone that has played goal knows that your reactions are based on the location the puck is shot from and the lay and angle of the stick of the shooter, and not actually on the puck as it is on it's way to the net, so it is always a bit of a guessing game. Positioning is the equalizer. When there are uncovered opposition players near the net or unmarked on the other side of the ice, goalies have to play deeper, eliminating a lot of the advantage they have in being in position to stop shots.

Goalies that are confident play high in the crease and challenge shooters. Goalies on bad defensive teams sit deep in their nets, exposing a lot more open net area and hedge their positioning for passes because they know there is a wide open shooter on the far side who will tap the puck in behind them if the puck gets across the ice.

The mental aspect comes in to the discussion as there is frustration, when due to poor D, goaltenders are unable to play aggressive. When the D is not covering the passes, clearing the screens, or doing their jobs, goalies get pissed, rattled, and generally do not play well.

The general uneducated response is always, "well goalies get paid a lot, they should be able to focus and overcome bad D". Anderson is one of the best at staying cool when his team hangs him out to dry, but he has had years of playing for bad teams and has learned to not get rattled, but even he has games where you could see the frustration had him off of his game.

Now, here is what all of this means and the context in this debate - no one is actually saying Comrie or UPL are great goalies or the solution. What we are all saying is that the majority of goalies in the league are going to have their games fall apart when hung out to dry the way the Sabres hung Comrie out last season. Vejmelka was hung out to dry by the Coyotes(who are normally strong defensively in their own zone) at the end of the season, and his game was super inconsistent and he gave up some pretty uncharacteristically soft goals. That is what we expect to see if he is brought to Buffalo without fixing the defensive zone coverage.

Fix the D - the Team D. You can't blame a single defenseman or the goalie when there are three opposition forwards banging at the puck around the net, and your center is still out near the redline and no wingers covered for him). Once this D is addressed, the PK should be up at 80% or better, and then you can evaluate your goaltending.
Awesome response. Kudos.
 
Fix the D - the Team D. You can't blame a single defenseman or the goalie when there are three opposition forwards banging at the puck around the net, and your center is still out near the redline and no wingers covered for him). Once this D is addressed, the PK should be up at 80% or better, and then you can evaluate your goaltending.

You aren't wrong about fixing the team D. We are horrid in our own zone.

Vegas is a good example that a strong Defense and structure will make the goalies look good. If we were to sign Aiden Hill this summer, his numbers here would be meh. If we traded for Hellebuyck, he wouldn't be a Veznia candidate here behind our D.

But, the idea that we are unable to evaluate any goaltenders after an 82 game season seems a bit off. We just have to look at our goaltending in context. We have goaltending experts (at least I hope we do) that can give a fair evaluation.

Overall, we need to take a dual track here. Improve the team defense via personnel and coaching changes. Improve the goaltending that way as well.

The goalies have shown us who they are.

Comrie is, before coming here, was, at best, a good backup. He's really done nothing to dispel that evaluation.

Before this year, the book on UPL for the Amerks is that he was inconsistent. Hot and cold. I mean...what did he do this year to really change that? He was hot for a few months...and he was bad for a few months.

We don't have the luxury available to 'wait and see' on goaltending. Are they as bad as their raw numbers suggest? No. But...do we have a goalie on our roster who you want starting 50-60 games? Also no.

Evaluate what we have and find an upgrade. If you want to have Levi fight for a spot, that's fine. But...have it be behind an established starter and one of UPL/Comrie and Levi compete for the tandem/backup spot if you want to go that route. What you can't do is run back Comrie and UPL and either just hope they get better or pray Levi is ready for a NHL starters role. That is asking for a disaster.
 
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