Speculation: Sabres Roster Speculation - Pre-season 2023 Edition

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

Tinkering...juggling multiple issues...same thing unless semantics matter that much. I don't really care the semantics because I totally acknowledge there were challenges to figuring out where some players fit in the FW group. IMO, not sticking with 53-72-89 from the start kind of added to the challenges instead of settling things. I don't agree with that but it's not something to heavily criticize Granato over. I brought it up in the context of the team being better off next season without so much confusion to sort out.


Hot take? Oh brother. Pointing out that the top line wasn't settled until mid Nov, and not agreeing with that, is a hot take?

It’s literally a text based exchange, semantics form the vast majority of the exchange

 

[TehDoak]

When it comes to goaltending, he tried to address it last off season.

But, at least one goalie, and reportedly two goalies, did not want to come here before he settled on signing Comrie. We know that Murray used his movement clause to block a trade that Adams had agreed to. And Chad D has hinted at information he has that Adams targeted a different UFA goalie. But, that goalie felt that signing elsewhere was a better fit.

That talks to how playing behind this team is not attractive to goalies who have options.

What is this, a 4th grade race day where where everyone gets a ribbon?

This is a professional hockey league. We had 3 1st round picks. A literal ocean of prospects and cap space to work with.

The whole "Well he tried" narrative with regards to goaltending is exhausting.

3 seasons needing to add a goalie. 3 seasons he failed to.

Let's call a spade a spade. Adams failed to address the goaltending last summer.

And as far as the PK goes, some of that goes with the goaltending and some of that goes with the decision to have a young, high event team.

Goaltending you are correct, a better goalie will help the PK. If we are having high event stuff on the PK...then the coach is doing something very wrong.

Things like PK ability, defensive awareness, and faceoff ability develop over time. And a team with the youngest roster in the NHL is likely to go through challenges in those areas as we have seen.

I think that Adams will shift his approach to roster building eventually. Before last season, I thought it would be this off season. But, given how things went, I am now starting to expect the shift to be next season. Only time will tell.

Here is the problem. Buffalo had options last year in regards to fixing the PK. They could have signed/traded for a 4th line C to help with the PK. And they could have done so without breaking the budget. They wasted 3.5M between Bjork and Hinostroza. If you add in what they paid Jost, that's 5.5M burned to be terrible at faceoffs and bad on the PK. It's just bad roster management by Adams. And even if you can hand waive the whole 'not blocking kids' thing and say it's a great strategy...the way he's handled the pieces he's added to 'help', they haven't been good. He claims he's using analytics team on every decision. I'm certainly not seeing it.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

It’s literally a text based exchange, semantics form the vast majority of the exchange

Go ahead and list out the vast differences between the two phrases if it really makes a difference to you. Clearly you feel like sniping on me...so have at it.

From my pov, I was only talking about the unnecessary step of keeping the top line apart. From another poster's pov, there was necessary juggling of the rest of the FW group. We really were talking about two different things, so the exchange was hung up on semantics.

 

[joshjull]

Uh yeah this is getting dumb. Next time I bring up FW combos I'll be sure to dig into the spreadsheet and make sure who the @#$% was on the ice for every minute of every game. I knew that line didn't finally stay together until Nov, but I sure as hell didn't believe that the three of them never stepped on the ice together at the same time for 18 straight games or whatever (I'm sure you'll stat check and then say it was 17 games and how I'm exaggerating out of total malice to drag Granato's good name through the mud). Together for a few games, not together for others...damn the general point is clear enough and you go pretending to be the "gotcha" man. Spare me.

It’s getting very dumb.

Here are (2) quotes from your posts that preceded my initial post in this back and forth.

(1) “One of the real head scratchers for me was seeing the top line not put back together until sometime around the 8 game losing streak in Nov”

(2) “I was more specific earlier in this thread, but I'm talking about the top line. They already were great together to end the season before. For some reason Granato didn't put them back together until mid November.”

These quotes are clearly stating the top line wasn’t together until mid November. My initial post responding to this was to lay out why that wasn’t the case in a way that wasn‘t mocking you or playing “gotcha”. Because there was no reason to do so. Then I expanded into a bunch of other topics in relation to the start of the season to spark a larger conversation about that timeframe. Unfortunately your response was to dismiss the entire post as semantics. That ticked me off a bit and led to the salty post you responded to above.

Then for the bolded - how exactly did you make this up in your head? I never said the team's overall struggles were due to the top line not being together.Never even hinted at that. I already stated what the context of the comment was about.

Here are (2) more quotes.

(1)“I think the FWs can be more effective overall just from Granato not tinkering around with combos for all of October and into November.”

(2) “Granato wasted about six weeks tinkering with lines to start this season. No desire for that again.”

It’s fair to say you feel Granato negatively impacted the team by “wasting time tinkering with the lines”.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

It’s getting very dumb.

Here are (2) quotes from your posts that preceded my initial post in this back and forth.

(1) “One of the real head scratchers for me was seeing the top line not put back together until sometime around the 8 game losing streak in Nov”

(2) “I was more specific earlier in this thread, but I'm talking about the top line. They already were great together to end the season before. For some reason Granato didn't put them back together until mid November.”

These quotes are clearly stating the top line wasn’t together until mid November. My initial post responding to this was to lay out why that wasn’t the case in a way that wasn‘t mocking you or playing “gotcha”. Because there was no reason to do so. Then I expanded into a bunch of other topics in relation to the start of the season to spark a larger conversation about that timeframe. Unfortunately your response was to dismiss the entire post as semantics. That ticked me off a bit and led to the salty post you responded to above.


I said how he handled the lines in the bolded, not just the top line.

Here are (2) more quotes.

(1)“I think the FWs can be more effective overall just from Granato not tinkering around with combos for all of October and into November.”

(2) “Granato wasted about six weeks tinkering with lines to start this season. No desire for that again.”

Its fair to say you feel Granato impacted the team negatively by “wasting time tinkering with the lines”

I wasn't specific about the the top line being together or not (I didn't have a clear recollection of game-by-game line-ups anyway) because it wasn't relevant to my point. I agree that Granato had other FW issues to deal with, I just disagree that it was also necessary to break up that line to address the other issues. However many games they were apart resulted in juggling/tinkering that to some extent wasn't necessary imo. The collective result was six weeks or so of line experiments that we should probably not expect next season, which would seem to be a bonus. I'm not going to say Granato held the team back any significant amount, but I don't want to see him go back (as some posters suggested here) to breaking up that line. Does it really matter whether the top line was together for half that time vs all the time? Either way it was a regular time frame of line experimentation, that didn't settle out until mid-Nov. It just seems "extra HF" to go dissecting that point...like trying to win a debate on a technicality but intentionally ignoring the bigger point.

Everything I posted about was in regard to the FW group, but had nothing to do with the overall and largest team problems like team defense, goaltending, etc. I'm not sure how those issues were mistaken for being part of the exchange.

Cheers!

 

[elchud]

Nothing Adams has *ever* done makes any ideas about big trades and contracts seem remotely plausible. The big stuff is for the guys in the organization already.

For trades, he isn't going to part with any of the top prospects, that includes Rosen/Ostlund/2023 1st. I think our chips are VO/UPL/2023 2nds. Maybe Connor Murphy is in play in a trade when those are the assets on the table.

For UFA, he will want a short-term deal. Mayfield isn't signing for 2 or 3 years. Or maybe he goes longer for a "young" guy like Clifton. The UFA contract will be between Sammy (4.25-ish) and Lyubishkin (2.75).

I expect to be unhappy with the goalie situation on opening night, which is also KA modus operandi.

VO's spot is Savoie's to lose. And he may lose it. If they give him the 9 game treatment and it fails, Rousek isn't an awful back-up plan.

 

[Jim Bob]

What is this, a 4th grade race day where where everyone gets a ribbon?

This is a professional hockey league. We had 3 1st round picks. A literal ocean of prospects and cap space to work with.

The whole "Well he tried" narrative with regards to goaltending is exhausting.

3 seasons needing to add a goalie. 3 seasons he failed to.

Let's call a spade a spade. Adams failed to address the goaltending last summer.



Goaltending you are correct, a better goalie will help the PK. If we are having high event stuff on the PK...then the coach is doing something very wrong.



Here is the problem. Buffalo had options last year in regards to fixing the PK. They could have signed/traded for a 4th line C to help with the PK. And they could have done so without breaking the budget. They wasted 3.5M between Bjork and Hinostroza. If you add in what they paid Jost, that's 5.5M burned to be terrible at faceoffs and bad on the PK. It's just bad roster management by Adams. And even if you can hand waive the whole 'not blocking kids' thing and say it's a great strategy...the way he's handled the pieces he's added to 'help', they haven't been good. He claims he's using analytics team on every decision. I'm certainly not seeing it.

The PK is not getting fixed by one forward. And the high event stuff isn't the strategy of the PK, but the roster decisions to build a young, high event team limits the options the coaches have with regards to PK personnel.

Adams decided to build a roster that was about winning via being a skilled, high event team at ES , good on the PP, and do the best they can on the PK.

They were 3rd in the NHL in GF/GP. They were 9th on the PP. And they bottom on the PK.

They need to grow not just on the PK, but defensively at ES, as well. That should be something that comes with experience and Granato and crew should start elevating the expectations defensively soon as they talked about this being an evolution.

And given how bad they were this year defensively, largely due to the young forwards not being great defensively, I do think there is a lot of defensive potential from this group as they mature.

As far as goaltending goes, whenever you get to plan C in addressing a need, it probably going to be less likely to work out well than plan A or plan B. Honestly, in hindsight, I still would rather have them sign Comrie than say trade a lot to get Gibson.

In no way do I want to see them sign long-term big money UFAs this summer. Or maybe even ever.

The point I was making is that our competitive stance has improved in the market. Some excellent players (not all) who would have never considered signing at market-value in Buffalo in 22 might consider it in 23 because of projections and, yes, vibes. Our players would get better trade returns for the same reasons.

Improvement in market position rightly leads to higher expectations regarding Adams' performance because now he will have more and better options. But that doesn't recommend any particular course of action.

I will believe that when I see it, quite honestly.

Plus, I doubt that Adams is willing to invest the years to UFAs to sign anyone beyond the Boosh level D.

 

[TehDoak]

The PK is not getting fixed by one forward. And the high event stuff isn't the strategy of the PK, but the roster decisions to build a young, high event team limits the options the coaches have with regards to PK personnel.

But....it could have been better. Having a center is good at faceoffs to establish possession in the defensive zone would have helped immensely.

Adams decided to build a roster that was about winning via being a skilled, high event team at ES , good on the PP, and do the best they can on the PK.

They were 3rd in the NHL in GF/GP. They were 9th on the PP. And they bottom on the PK.

They need to grow not just on the PK, but defensively at ES, as well. That should be something that comes with experience and Granato and crew should start elevating the expectations defensively soon as they talked about this being an evolution.

And given how bad they were this year defensively, largely due to the young forwards not being great defensively, I do think there is a lot of defensive potential from this group as they mature.

This kind of thinking is how you get stuck in mediocrity forever. I certainly understand that, in the big picture, the team needs to overhaul how they play. And that will take time. But to simply not try to improve the team's defensive play by bringing in vets who can help teach and lead by example in the interim? That's, again, poor roster management and construction by Adams.

As far as goaltending goes, whenever you get to plan C in addressing a need, it probably going to be less likely to work out well than plan A or plan B. Honestly, in hindsight, I still would rather have them sign Comrie than say trade a lot to get Gibson.

Oceans of draft capital, cap space, and prospects to make a good goaltender acquisition over the last 3 seasons, and the Sabres have chose a retiree and a career backup in net to make their stand because getting someone good might spook at 21 year old away from signing. Poor roster management and decision making.

 

[Fjordy]

As far as I understand, Joki has not established himself as a top 4 D and we still need a top 4 RD to pair with Power?

 

[Jim Bob]

But....it could have been better. Having a center is good at faceoffs to establish possession in the defensive zone would have helped immensely.


This kind of thinking is how you get stuck in mediocrity forever. I certainly understand that, in the big picture, the team needs to overhaul how they play. And that will take time. But to simply not try to improve the team's defensive play by bringing in vets who can help teach and lead by example in the interim? That's, again, poor roster management and construction by Adams.

I would say that one 4C that is better at faceoffs than Krebs/Jost would not help the PK immensely, but marginally.

PKing is immensely more than winning faceoffs.

And as far as going all in on the kids, I do not believe that is how you are stuck in mediocrity forever. But it is one stage in building sustainable success. Adams is using a crock pot and not a microwave to cook this roster. I believe that is the better path.

That will take more patience than many fans and people in the media have. But, it sure appears that not only does Adams have that kind of patience, but he seems to have the Pegulas trust in the path he wants to go down.

 

[Jim Bob]

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

As far as I understand, Joki has not established himself as a top 4 D and we still need a top 4 RD to pair with Power?

That is the consensus opinion. Some want to keep Jokiharju as a 3rd pair guy, some want to trade him.

 

[Dingo44]

 

[HOOats]

Oceans of draft capital, cap space, and prospects to make a good goaltender acquisition over the last 3 seasons, and the Sabres have chose a retiree and a career backup in net to make their stand because getting someone good might spook at 21 year old away from signing. Poor roster management and decision making.

"a 21 year old" is a rather minimizing way to describe one of the decade's most unique, promising goaltending prospects. It's apparent that Levi was looking for an opportunity to be fast-tracked and likely would have been (justifiably) spooked by a long-term goalie establishing himself here prior to his signing. Comrie was a decent compromise of floor with some ceiling, while not scaring Levi off. The results didn't work out, but getting Levi in the fold for a decade was far more valuable than any other outcome imo.

 

[TehDoak]

"a (sic) 21 year old" is a rather minimizing way to describe one of the decade's most unique, promising goaltending prospects.

Lawd. Levi's a great goaltending prospect. He's not even the best goalie prospect currently, let alone 'in the decade'. Askarov and Wolf are the top prospects currently.

It's apparent that Levi was looking for an opportunity to be fast-tracked and likely would have been (justifiably) spooked by a long-term goalie establishing himself here prior to his signing. Comrie was a decent compromise of floor with some ceiling, while not scaring Levi off. The results didn't work out, but getting Levi in the fold for a decade was far more valuable than any other outcome imo.

Levi is a goalie prospect.

Prospect. Not an established starter. No an elite NHL goalie. A prospect. A good prospect, sure, maybe even a great one. The fact that (according to EF) the Sabres got angry that they were even in the rumor mill about a goalie because it might spook Levi is absolutely insane.

The idea the team would sabotage the goaltending/playoff chances to appease a prospect is so beyond stupid I hope there is nothing actual to it.

 

[Old Navy Goat]

I always see blah blah blah get a center that's good on faceoffs. The truth of the matter is that 90% of faceoffs are won by the wingers. Very seldom do you see a clean win. Get the wingers to be more invested in battling for the puck and you'll see an uptick in faceoff %

 

[HOOats]

Lawd. Levi's a great goaltending prospect. He's not even the best goalie prospect currently, let alone 'in the decade'. Askarov and Wolf are the top prospects currently.



Levi is a goalie prospect.

Prospect. Not an established starter. No an elite NHL goalie. A prospect. A good prospect, sure, maybe even a great one. The fact that (according to EF) the Sabres got angry that they were even in the rumor mill about a goalie because it might spook Levi is absolutely insane.

The idea the team would sabotage the goaltending/playoff chances to appease a prospect is so beyond stupid I hope there is nothing actual to it.

The real sabotage of the goaltending position and our future would have been reaching for a termed-up FA goalie who would have been a coinflip to flop/cap albatross or spending assets on trading for a goalie who again, could flop and become an anchor. Getting giddy a year early, jumping at a fool's gold solution, and scaring away a cost-controlled good/great/elite goaltending prospect that already represents a spent asset would truly be beyond stupid (which is why we didn't do it).

Media prospect watchers may regard a couple guys with AHL track records as better prospects than Levi, but I guarantee there are plenty of people in front offices around the league who project Levi as an elite starter. I trust our evaluators and they clearly think he has the "it" factor to become a star. Combine that with his physical attributes, his best-ever WJC and record-setting college pedigree, I think it was wise to prioritize his track when it was less than a year away from being locked in. Not to mention his age fit with our rising core.

I'm all for adding a strong veteran to pair with him now that he's in the fold, but I'm also glad to have traded missing the playoffs this year for ten years of Levi (if you view it as a 1-for-1).

 

[Ace]

This is the new excuse for the way Adams has handled goalie? Anyone better than the worst tandem in the league would have resulted in losing Levi? Well…good news. Levi is signed.

No excuse this off-season.

 

[Fjordy]

Forward Nikolay Goldobin intends to return to the NHL. Last season, the forward scored 36 points (19+17) in 59 games for Metallurg. In the NHL, the Russian has 126 games for San Jose and Vancouver, in which he scored 46 points (19+27).

 

[Jim Bob]

Bruins: 3 Potential Free-Agent Destinations for Nick Foligno - The Hockey Writers Boston Bruins Latest News, Analysis & More

If the Boston Bruins decide to let Nick Foligno walk, these three teams should be in the mix for his services this offseason.

thehockeywriters.com

Buffalo Sabres​

The Buffalo Sabres stand out as a possible landing spot for Foligno. They are a team on the rise who should be in the hunt for a playoff spot in 2023-24. As a result, it does not seem too out of the question that they would make a push for the Buffalo native. After all, it would not hurt for them to add another experienced leader to their roster who can still produce well offensively in a bottom-six role.

If the Sabres signed Foligno, he would be a candidate to play on their third line with Dylan Cozens and Jack Quinn. However, he would also form a strong fourth line with Zemgus Girgensons and Kyle Okposo – if they both re-sign with the Sabres. Foligno’s steady defensive game would also have him in the running to receive penalty kill time.

Although joining the Sabres would not necessarily give Foligno the opportunity to play for a legitimate contender, things could change on that front quickly if Buffalo keeps heading in a positive direction.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Bruins: 3 Potential Free-Agent Destinations for Nick Foligno - The Hockey Writers Boston Bruins Latest News, Analysis & More

If the Boston Bruins decide to let Nick Foligno walk, these three teams should be in the mix for his services this offseason.

thehockeywriters.com

I would love adding Nick Foligno...on draft day 2006 (thanks for Dennis Persson, Darcy). Now he's in the same stage of his career as Okposo. I'm good with a veteran add, but he would only make sense if Girgensons left and several younger options didn't sign.

 

[Ace]

He could play on our third line with Cozens and Quinn?

…

What is our second line in this writer’s mind?

Peterka-Mittelstadt-Greenway/Olofsson?

 

[Mattilaus]

Oceans of draft capital, cap space, and prospects to make a good goaltender acquisition over the last 3 seasons, and the Sabres have chose a retiree and a career backup in net to make their stand because getting someone good might spook at 21 year old away from signing. Poor roster management and decision making.

If they chose to not sign a good goalie due to being scared Levi might not sign, then why exactly did they try to get Matt Murray? Your hypothesis makes no sense.

 

[TehDoak]

If they chose to not sign a good goalie due to being scared Levi might not sign, then why exactly did they try to get Matt Murray? Your hypothesis makes no sense.

 

[Mattilaus]

View attachment 702839

Ahh so you are just going to come up with a bunch of excuses as to why any goaltender we did try to get was bad. Got it. Obviously we should have just traded Joki's left skate for vasi straight up, because Tampa would have accepted clearly.