Value of: Ryan Murray to the Leafs

[Crede777]

How about a blockbuster around Matthews for Seth Jones? but who adds though and what?

Columbus adds, but Toronto can't do that. They've tied their wagon to Matthews.

 

[Randy Randerson]

How about a blockbuster around Matthews for Seth Jones? but who adds though and what?

I don't see either side wanting to do this, fills one hole for both but creates another. #1C and #1RHD are both very hard to acquire

The value equation probably depends on timing and performance - Jones looks like he might be filling out his offensive potential right now which would put him among the elite offensive dmen in the league plus he's a big, athletic guy and Matthews is currently performing to a 130+ pt pace...so probably depends who sustains better. You could also look at history too, Jones just got dealt for Johansen, how do you see Johansen vs. Matthews? I think with Matthews making a nice transition that he would be more highly valued because the perceived risk of him not panning out is shrinking and his ceiling is very likely higher than Johansen. By the same token, Jones had never really performed offensively in Nashville and seems to be putting that part together so his value is probably increasing a bit

 

[D3ADLY]

Marner or Nylander. That's it. Let's have some conversation.

Well for that you will have to give up Zach Werenski or Jones. It would be a fair trade in my opinion and covers the bases for both side. Most will disagree with this but to acquire a player like Nylander or Marner you need to serve up a guy like Zach or Seth +/- from either side. But for Murray.. Kadri is the best C you will receive thats no knock on Kadri or Murray but thats what both are valued at in my opinion. I still think that JvR plus Kapanen should be more than enough for Murray and a pick.

 

[mikeyp24]

Well for that you will have to give up Zach Werenski or Jones. It would be a fair trade in my opinion and covers the bases for both side. Most will disagree with this but to acquire a player like Nylander or Marner you need to serve up a guy like Zach or Seth +/- from either side. But for Murray.. Kadri is the best C you will receive thats no knock on Kadri or Murray but thats what both are valued at in my opinion. I still think that JvR plus Kapanen should be more than enough for Murray and a pick.

Kadri being mentioned anywhere near Murray is a knock on Murray. Murray is only on the 2nd pair because Werenski and Jones. 90% of the D in the league would be behind 2 the way they are playing. Murray just represented team NA along with Jones and before Werenski showed up on fire was supposed to be our #2. Kadri doesn't get you a U23 #2D even before he showed he is at best a mid 2C top 3C.

Murray is proven the other 2 are not. If Toronto actually wants him they would pay ome.of those preferably Nylander because I don't believe in Marner at all. But right now there is not want or need to trade.him.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Well for that you will have to give up Zach Werenski or Jones. It would be a fair trade in my opinion and covers the bases for both side. Most will disagree with this but to acquire a player like Nylander or Marner you need to serve up a guy like Zach or Seth +/- from either side. But for Murray.. Kadri is the best C you will receive thats no knock on Kadri or Murray but thats what both are valued at in my opinion. I still think that JvR plus Kapanen should be more than enough for Murray and a pick.

I understand how you feel. As a Columbus fan I have no interest in Kadri or JVR as the main return in a trade for Murray.Neither one fills a Columbus need. A player you might be interested in acquiring is Trouba. He is less valuable than Murray. Perhaps Winnipeg fans would be interested.

 

[Randy Randerson]

I understand how you feel. As a Columbus fan I have no interest in Kadri or JVR as the main return in a trade for Murray.Neither one fills a Columbus need. A player you might be interested in acquiring is Trouba. He is less valuable than Murray. Perhaps Winnipeg fans would be interested.

I'm a leaf fan - agree that the leafs probably aren't your dance partner for Murray, he doesn't fill a need for us either as a LHD

As a fan of neither team, and without considering the contract holdout situation around Trouba, I think Trouba is more valuable than Murray. They're on the same tier, but Trouba has the offense and is still thought of as having #1 upside. That being said, I don't know why CBJ would target him Jones and Savard on your right side, seems like more stockpiling of assets in positions that you're already strong in

I would be targeting a young, high ceiling centre if I were in CBJ's shoes with Murray if I was trading him - Dubois may be that, but its going to be a while before you know and he could end up on the wing even if he turns out

 

[TaketheCannoli]

I'm a leaf fan - agree that the leafs probably aren't your dance partner for Murray, he doesn't fill a need for us either as a LHD

As a fan of neither team, and without considering the contract holdout situation around Trouba, I think Trouba is more valuable than Murray. They're on the same tier, but Trouba has the offense and is still thought of as having #1 upside. That being said, I don't know why CBJ would target him Jones and Savard on your right side, seems like more stockpiling of assets in positions that you're already strong in

I would be targeting a young, high ceiling centre if I were in CBJ's shoes with Murray if I was trading him - Dubois may be that, but its going to be a while before you know and he could end up on the wing even if he turns out

I'm suggesting Leafs fans target Trouba in a trade involving Kadri or JVR as the main piece and Columbus can keep Murray or find a better trading partner.

 

[Viqsi]

Well for that you will have to give up

STOP.

Stop right there.

We are not asking Toronto for anything. Leafs fans are coming to us and asking for Ryan Murray. We are telling you what we need in return for Ryan Murray. You don't get to shift the goalposts when we tell you what we need in return for Ryan Murray. You don't get to say "but Kadri!" We know Kadri. We know what he is capable of. We are telling you that Kadri will not get it done. We have told you what we would require. You can accept that answer, or you can move on.

* * *​

I'm a leaf fan - agree that the leafs probably aren't your dance partner for Murray, he doesn't fill a need for us either as a LHD

As a fan of neither team, and without considering the contract holdout situation around Trouba, I think Trouba is more valuable than Murray. They're on the same tier, but Trouba has the offense and is still thought of as having #1 upside. That being said, I don't know why CBJ would target him Jones and Savard on your right side, seems like more stockpiling of assets in positions that you're already strong in

I would be targeting a young, high ceiling centre if I were in CBJ's shoes with Murray if I was trading him - Dubois may be that, but its going to be a while before you know and he could end up on the wing even if he turns out

The problem with this entire post is that it keeps presuming that we are shopping or otherwise considering trading Murray. We're not. We are open to the idea if someone comes forward with a reasonable offer - he's not untouchable - but we have very specific needs and if they're not going to be met in such a deal then we have no incentive whatsoever to play along.

 

[D3ADLY]

STOP.

Stop right there.

We are not asking Toronto for anything. Leafs fans are coming to us and asking for Ryan Murray. We are telling you what we need in return for Ryan Murray. You don't get to shift the goalposts when we tell you what we need in return for Ryan Murray. You don't get to say "but Kadri!" We know Kadri. We know what he is capable of. We are telling you that Kadri will not get it done. We have told you what we would require. You can accept that answer, or you can move on.

* * *​

The problem with this entire post is that it keeps presuming that we are shopping or otherwise considering trading Murray. We're not. We are open to the idea if someone comes forward with a reasonable offer - he's not untouchable - but we have very specific needs and if they're not going to be met in such a deal then we have no incentive whatsoever to play along.

Can't stop now Leafs are in need of D on both sides i don't know why Toronto fans are saying they need only RHD. Also like i said if you want Nylander you gotta pay equivalent price just like for Murray the equal value would be Kadri and Kapanen or JvR and Kapanen and i believe i am overvaluing Murray here without a pick being added. If Jackets want to keep their guy like some fans have suggested that is fair but to over value players just because you want the better end of the deal will not happen just so you know we never had to agree it was more of what value Murray holds and quiet clearly he is over valued here.

 

[Viqsi]

Also like i said if you want Nylander

No. Stop. You are not hearing me here.

We are not asking for Nylander. You are asking for Ryan Murray and we are telling you what we require in return.

When you find yourself disagreeing, the response is not "If you want Nylander you give us...". The response is "I guess Ryan Murray is too expensive. Oh well. I will now shop elsewhere."

you gotta pay equivalent price just like for Murray the equal value would be Kadri and Kapanen or JvR and Kapanen

You are wrong, because we set the price for Ryan Murray, because he is our asset, and we do not agree with those prices.

Ryan Murray is a top pairing defenseman. We will only accept a #1C back because that is the only return that justifies losing him. You can accept that or you can move on. You have no standing for debating or disagreeing with it.

We took this same kind of crap when a handful of desperate Oil fans decided to press us on trading them Ryan Johansen for Ales Hemsky and other assets for three straight years, okay? We turned "The price for Ryan Johansen is Jordan Eberle" into a HF meme for a little while as part of that. If you persist in insisting that this is equal value, then you are not going to get the answer you want.

 

[D3ADLY]

No. Stop. You are not hearing me here.

We are not asking for Nylander. You are asking for Ryan Murray and we are telling you what we require in return.

When you find yourself disagreeing, the response is not "If you want Nylander you give us...". The response is "I guess Ryan Murray is too expensive. Oh well. I will now shop elsewhere."



You are wrong, because we set the price for Ryan Murray, because he is our asset, and we do not agree with those prices.

Ryan Murray is a top pairing defenseman. We will only accept a #1C back because that is the only return that justifies losing him. You can accept that or you can move on. You have no standing for debating or disagreeing with it.

calm down don't hurt your self. It's a conversation you don't set anything so you know we can just discuss as fans. No need to have an heart attack over this you can keep Murray until he leaves for the leafs (ahem).

 

[blinkman360]

No. Stop. You are not hearing me here.

We are not asking for Nylander. You are asking for Ryan Murray and we are telling you what we require in return.

When you find yourself disagreeing, the response is not "If you want Nylander you give us...". The response is "I guess Ryan Murray is too expensive. Oh well. I will now shop elsewhere."



You are wrong, because we set the price for Ryan Murray, because he is our asset, and we do not agree with those prices.

Ryan Murray is a top pairing defenseman. We will only accept a #1C back because that is the only return that justifies losing him. You can accept that or you can move on. You have no standing for debating or disagreeing with it.

We took this same kind of crap when a handful of desperate Oil fans decided to press us on trading them Ryan Johansen for Ales Hemsky and other assets for three straight years, okay? We turned "The price for Ryan Johansen is Jordan Eberle" into a HF meme for a little while as part of that. If you persist in insisting that this is equal value, then you are not going to get the answer you want.

Beautiful post.

 

[Viqsi]

calm down don't hurt your self. It's a conversation you don't set anything so you know we can just discuss as fans. No need to have an heart attack over this you can keep Murray until he leaves for the leafs (ahem).

Sure. Just like Rick Nash did, right?

 

[Prairie Habs]

Can't stop now Leafs are in need of D on both sides i don't know why Toronto fans are saying they need only RHD. Also like i said if you want Nylander you gotta pay equivalent price just like for Murray the equal value would be Kadri and Kapanen or JvR and Kapanen and i believe i am overvaluing Murray here without a pick being added. If Jackets want to keep their guy like some fans have suggested that is fair but to over value players just because you want the better end of the deal will not happen just so you know we never had to agree it was more of what value Murray holds and quiet clearly he is over valued here.

1) Look at the Hall for Larsson trade from the summer
2) Spend some time in deep thought
3) Try again

If a team is satisfied with their young high end D and you come calling be prepared to overpay by a lot. Not add a couple expendable pieces together and tell them what a good deal they are getting because you aren't asking for a pick. Valuable, painful pieces.

 

[D3ADLY]

Sure. Just like Rick Nash did, right?

Who? it was a joke seriously i am going to stop in this thread cause i don't want to be the cause for your health.

 

[Randy Randerson]

I'm suggesting Leafs fans target Trouba in a trade involving Kadri or JVR as the main piece and Columbus can keep Murray or find a better trading partner.

ah, my mistake. Trouba would be a better target for us for sure, though the rumours are that he doesn't want to play in Canada and I don't think JVR or Kadri fill a need for WPG, Gardiner might

STOP.
The problem with this entire post is that it keeps presuming that we are shopping or otherwise considering trading Murray. We're not. We are open to the idea if someone comes forward with a reasonable offer - he's not untouchable - but we have very specific needs and if they're not going to be met in such a deal then we have no incentive whatsoever to play along.

Apparently I misunderstood the poster I was replying to, he meant that the leafs should target Trouba instead of Murray, which I agree is more in line with our needs

Though, I would be surprised if the feelers aren't constantly out there on the players that you're targeting and from other teams on who you're willing to part with. Whenever you hear GM's talk about the process in any sport, they always talk about constantly kicking tires. Not saying that you're actively shopping Murray for the sake of getting rid of him, but if Jarmo is willing to part with him for the right piece(s), I would be surprised if the holders of those pieces weren't aware that Murray is available

 

[Crede777]

calm down don't hurt your self. It's a conversation you don't set anything so you know we can just discuss as fans. No need to have an heart attack over this you can keep Murray until he leaves for the leafs (ahem).

You seem obsessed with saying that Jackets have to accept what you deem to be fair value for Murray.

1. He's not available.
2. If he were available, it's for what the Jackets say the price is.

Like Viqsi said, a Leafs fan asked and we answered. If you don't like the answer, too bad.

 

[major major]

Well for that you will have to give up Zach Werenski or Jones. It would be a fair trade in my opinion and covers the bases for both side. Most will disagree with this but to acquire a player like Nylander or Marner you need to serve up a guy like Zach or Seth +/- from either side. But for Murray.. Kadri is the best C you will receive thats no knock on Kadri or Murray but thats what both are valued at in my opinion. I still think that JvR plus Kapanen should be more than enough for Murray and a pick.

You're not wrong that Nylander and Marner are worth more, but that's not a remotely close offer either. It's just much much easier to get a JVR type of player than it is to get a Murray type. Prior to last year, Ryan Murray was the best D talent the org ever had.

JVR is what, a 25G LW? Call him a 30G LW if you want. How many LW's on the Jackets can score 30? Saad and Jenner just did it, and Foligno and Hartnell the year prior. If anything the Jackets would much sooner trade a Jenner type for another D, however redundant that might look to some folks.

That's just the Jackets, which are obviousy deeper there than most, but in general I think most teams don't consider a wing for a D like that, unless the wing is elite.

 

[Randy Randerson]

You're not wrong that Nylander and Marner are worth more, but that's not a remotely close offer either. It's just much much easier to get a JVR type of player than it is to get a Murray type. Prior to last year, Ryan Murray was the best D talent the org ever had.

JVR is what, a 25G LW? Call him a 30G LW if you want. How many LW's on the Jackets can score 30? Saad and Jenner just did it, and Foligno and Hartnell the year prior. If anything the Jackets would much sooner trade a Jenner type for another D, however redundant that might look to some folks.

That's just the Jackets, which are obviousy deeper there than most, but in general I think most teams don't consider a wing for a D like that, unless the wing is elite.

Agree that JVR doesn't do much for CBJ, you guys have lots of his level of wingers and that Murray is worth more than JVR, but Kapanen isn't just a throw-in either - he's finally getting offensive opportunity this year and is over ppg in the AHL as a 20 year old and former first round pick

I don't really want Murray for the leafs because he's left handed, but depending on what the pick was supposed to be in that deal it might be closer in value than you're giving it credit for

 

[mikeyp24]

The problem with getting Kapanen is that we have some pretty good young guys with scoring potential that are at least his level without a starting spot on the big club. We are already one.of the youngest teams in the league trading for more futures isnt.what we need. So while he is not just a throw in... he is also no where near a need. I don't want people thinking get we under value others prospects just that right now is the first time we have.no need for futures we.only need nows.

 

[Fro]

Sure. Just like Rick Nash did, right?

also acceptable... Stamkos

 

[Randy Randerson]

The problem with getting Kapanen is that we have some pretty good young guys with scoring potential that are at least his level without a starting spot on the big club. We are already one.of the youngest teams in the league trading for more futures isnt.what we need. So while he is not just a throw in... he is also no where near a need. I don't want people thinking get we under value others prospects just that right now is the first time we have.no need for futures we.only need nows.

ya that's fair, makes sense that CBJ would want a centre in his early 20's who was ready and had a big ceiling, the team looks like its ready to take a step forward and doesn't have many holes. Star level forward talent is the only knock, and your wings look deep with guys who are the next step down (I'm not sold on Jenner, but I think Saad is underrated)

 

[mikeyp24]

Jenner this year has stumbled off the block and last year was probably an outlier but I see him as a 25-25 guy as he progresses. His goals last year came a lot at the front of the net and just the dirty kind that can go either way. Not a lot of wristers or the like. But I see him as a career 2nd line leader that can put up 50+ a year but gas the potential for much more. Saad I highly agree. I thought he was extremely underrated with the Hawks and still is today. The day we got him in the trade was 2nd to only getting Jones as far as my excitement for acquisitions go. Never in a million years would I expect us to get him.

I agree there isn't a ton of star power but that's something I'm OK with because I love gritty blue collar rough teams. The movie Moneyball is a great example of star players being nice but not nessasary. If you have the right guys for the right system anything can happen. Seth Jones and Werenski will be house hold hockey names soon enough.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Jenner this year has stumbled off the block and last year was probably an outlier but I see him as a 25-25 guy as he progresses. His goals last year came a lot at the front of the net and just the dirty kind that can go either way. Not a lot of wristers or the like. But I see him as a career 2nd line leader that can put up 50+ a year but gas the potential for much more. Saad I highly agree. I thought he was extremely underrated with the Hawks and still is today. The day we got him in the trade was 2nd to only getting Jones as far as my excitement for acquisitions go. Never in a million years would I expect us to get him.

I agree there isn't a ton of star power but that's something I'm OK with because I love gritty blue collar rough teams. The movie Moneyball is a great example of star players being nice but not nessasary. If you have the right guys for the right system anything can happen. Seth Jones and Werenski will be house hold hockey names soon enough.

My issue with Jenner is that he scores the vast majority of his goals from close range where he hasn't had the puck on his stick for long, meaning someone else had to get the puck there for him to be effective. I don't ever see him being much of an assist guy, so I think he'll be dependent on linemates to produce - in the right situation (with star linemates) i think he'd be just fine even as a 1st line winger, but without those I could see him being more like a 3rd liner with 15ish goals and 15ish assists. I don't mean that to knock him, that's just what I see in his skillset. I think with the grit and leadership, he's always going to find a spot playing significant minutes on the NHL club, but I think his linemates will have a lot to do with his point production

Saad on the other hand I think is a low end 1st liner on his own, and could be better. He's got lots of talent to go with some size and grit, and if he had a star centre to play with I think he could be the James Neal/Bobby Ryan to that centre

I think that Jones and Werenski will also provide a boost to the offense and to the production of the lines they play behind, that's a great tandem to build around and one of them will be on the ice practically at all times a la Pronger&Neidermeyer in Anaheim

 

[major major]

My issue with Jenner is that he scores the vast majority of his goals from close range where he hasn't had the puck on his stick for long, meaning someone else had to get the puck there for him to be effective. I don't ever see him being much of an assist guy, so I think he'll be dependent on linemates to produce - in the right situation (with star linemates) i think he'd be just fine even as a 1st line winger, but without those I could see him being more like a 3rd liner with 15ish goals and 15ish assists. I don't mean that to knock him, that's just what I see in his skillset. I think with the grit and leadership, he's always going to find a spot playing significant minutes on the NHL club, but I think his linemates will have a lot to do with his point production

Saad on the other hand I think is a low end 1st liner on his own, and could be better. He's got lots of talent to go with some size and grit, and if he had a star centre to play with I think he could be the James Neal/Bobby Ryan to that centre

I think that Jones and Werenski will also provide a boost to the offense and to the production of the lines they play behind, that's a great tandem to build around and one of them will be on the ice practically at all times a la Pronger&Neidermeyer in Anaheim

You're right about Jenner.

And I'm with you on Saad, until you say "could be Neal/Ryan". He drives the play better than those guys and can rack up close to the same points as them - I believe just a few points less last year. It's hard for me to see why he can't be the best of the bunch soon.