Prospect Info: Ryan Johnson, D, 2019 #31 overall: Signed, Rochester (AHL), Recalled 12/5/24

[TehDoak]

We are still on the "we want guys who want to be here" train right? Screw him

This is the flaw in that reasoning. It frankly isn't realistic that you will get 100% of your roster that 'wants to be there'. I'd wager on nearly every playoff team there are guys who would like to be in a different city, team, situation, etc.

What you want are guys who will be professional and play out their contract irregardless of whether or not the Sabres are their #1 choice.

When you are a perennial playoff missing team in a rust belt city, you aren't going to be at the top of many players lists.

 

[truthbluth]

Instead of, “stop drafting college guys,” how about we, “stop taking it personally when players we draft don’t sign.”

 

[displacedsabre]

youd think a kid just entering the league would see the young and upcoming roster, and want to be a part of that. The playing time thing makes no sense, hed be #1 in Rochester next year. Get bad vibes from this kid.

 

[Gras]

Agreed. Unfortunately the NCAA is not going to simply "let" that happen. They'd have to be forced to allow it, through organized player demands or legal wrangling.

Or they get paid off, since all the NCAA really cares about is money.

 

[Gras]

Bingo. Just like the CHL or any of the European leagues.

The only roadblock I see is how then would you calculate the "slide" of the contracts and therefore the legnth of the ELC. It's not difficult, but all parties would have to agree to it.

So if a player signs and leaves after 1 or 2 years, it remains as a 3 year ELC; if they leave after 3 or 4 years then it's a 2 year ELC.

Also, I wonder how you deal with drafted vs. undrafted guys. Maybe you need to treat them differently, because some of the undrafted guys who sign ELCs may be 22-24 years old, so they couldn't have 3 year ELCs or even 2 if they're on the older end of that spectrum, otherwise it would conflict with existing CBA rights.

ELC Slides til they hit 20 then the ELC kicks in, if they stay in college, contract money goes towards educational expenses, NCAA gets their pound of flesh, problem solved.

 

[sabregoat]

There is no perfect solution. Junior players have to show they‘re worth a contract in 2years. Sometimes they’re not quite there and a team decides not to sign them. Which can lead to players slipping through the cracks like Hagel.

There are no perfect solutions because players are coming from so many different situations as far as leagues are concerned. For college kids, I would like to see a rfa approach where the team that drafted him offers a qualifying contract and if another team signs him, that team compensates the drafting team. I would put the comp as a first rd pick since the kids who have a better chance signing anywhere tend to be the better players.

As for CHL kids, increase the contract limit. This way the late bloomers still get a chance without the fear of running out of contracts.

 

[TheStorm]

A bit concerning

 

[allsilverdreams]

How long has the NHL had these loopholes?
Why did it start?

 

[BritSabre]

Wonder if he was leveraging for burning the year by playing a game or more this season. Now that's off the table he's in the same boat contractually whether signing today and plays in Roch or signs at the end of the next year and burns a year. Starts 23-24 with 2 years left.

Or the other option well covered.

 

[couture23]

How long has the NHL had these loopholes?
Why did it start?

Once again, it's not a "loophole". Chicago got screwed over by this with Kevin Hayes years back.

Another way to potentially fix this is do this the way that the MLB does. If you draft a college player 31st overall and you offer them a contract, but they don't sign, you should get the 32nd overall pick the next go around. This makes it more equitable for smaller market teams who invite this player to rookie camp every year and help in their development. At least give them a draft pick that is close in value to what they put into it.

 

[Snippit]

I mean if you told me we would go 0/3 this summer on Levi, Portillo, and Johnson, I would have said you were being paranoid.

So this is quite disappointing. He's a very good player and will have a long NHL career.

 

[Dingo44]

Guys can develop in college or European pro leagues longer than they can develop in the CHL. Difference is playing against men VS boys. Advantage with CHL players is you have to sign them sooner but then they're locked up. But that's also a disadvantage because you now have to pay them, they take up roster spots, and they're young enough that they might bust out.
College players can keep developing against older players and there is no salary. Disadvantage is they can stay in college and eventually walk to free agency, though it happens very rarely despite our PTSD about Petersen. Johnson would be giving up a lot of money and an opportunity to get to RFA/UFA in the NHL earlier by not signing.
I've never seen one interview with any indication from him he has no plans to sign with the Sabres. It's just people here and elsewhere speculating without any basis in fact.

 

[NotABadPeriod]

The fact that Johnson hasn't come out definitively and said something makes me wonder if he's going to wait for dev camp to make his decision. It certainly wouldn't be unheard of for a college player to decide mid-summer to sign, and he clearly is very much on the fence about going back this year.

If he does go back, I think he still signs after his college season ends because we (and only we) can burn a year off his ELC. And maybe he's looking at that as his best case scenario: get to chase a national championship and still get the year off his ELC.

 

[Lloydchristmas138]

People speculate about him wanting to join the Kings organization because his dad works there, too. Have you seen their defensive depth though? There’s no way you would think you have a better path there than here.

 

[Paxon]

People speculate about him wanting to join the Kings organization because his dad works there, too. Have you seen their defensive depth though? There’s no way you would think you have a better path there than here.

It's also silly to assume someone would want to work somewhere because their dad does. For every person who would go out of their way to do that there is someone who would go out of their way to not do that.

 

[joshjull]

There are no perfect solutions because players are coming from so many different situations as far as leagues are concerned. For college kids, I would like to see a rfa approach where the team that drafted him offers a qualifying contract and if another team signs him, that team compensates the drafting team. I would put the comp as a first rd pick since the kids who have a better chance signing anywhere tend to be the better players.

I know. That was the point of my post.

As for CHL kids, increase the contract limit. This way the late bloomers still get a chance without the fear of running out of contracts.

Late bloomers still get a chance. Its just with another team.

 

[jmelm]

How long has the NHL had these loopholes?
Why did it start?

Things get overlooked. I'm not surprised that things like this happened and it started at some point, I'm surprised it hasn't been dealt with somehow before now.

I hope this is something that teams really push to get solved whenever the CBA gets revisited, if not before. Teams and their fans deserve better. If there are individual cases where a player feels a team is being vindictive and actively trying to block their development or doing something harmful to the player's career prospects, there shoudl be an aribitration mechanism to resolve those rare cases.

 

[dotcommunism]

College players can keep developing against older players and there is no salary. Disadvantage is they can stay in college and eventually walk to free agency, though it happens very rarely despite our PTSD about Petersen. Johnson would be giving up a lot of money and an opportunity to get to RFA/UFA in the NHL earlier by not signing.

Money, at least in the short term, yes. As far as RFA eligibility goes, there wouldn't be any difference as to when he'd be eligible if he signed with the Sabres at the end of next season, or didn't sign with anyone until the off-season. A player has to have a certain number of professional seasons to be RFA eligible, and the number of games an NCAA player can get by signing after his season is over isn't enough to count. Actually, even signing this off-season would not make him RFA eligible any earlier than he will be next year, due to his age.

To digress, here are Johnson's ELC and RFA situations based on when he signs his contract:
2022 offseason: 3 year ELC, becoming an RFA in 2025.
At the end of the 2022-23 season, with his playing in the NHL: 2 year ELC, ending in 2024, then a year of pre-RFA eligibility (Mittelstadt had this, and accepted his QO that year), then a full-fledged RFA in 2025
2023 offseason: 2 year ELC, becoming an RFA in 2025.

So, pretty much unless he has a huge rookie season in 23-24, under scenario 2, so that the Sabres want to sign him to a big extension right away, his RFA outlook is pretty much set regardless of what he does.

As far as UFA eligibility, he'll be UFA eligible in 2029 regardless of anything. That was set when he returned to college for the previous season.

Things get overlooked. I'm not surprised that things like this happened and it started at some point, I'm surprised it hasn't been dealt with somehow before now.

I hope this is something that teams really push to get solved whenever the CBA gets revisited, if not before. Teams and their fans deserve better. If there are individual cases where a player feels a team is being vindictive and actively trying to block their development or doing something harmful to the player's career prospects, there shoudl be an aribitration mechanism to resolve those rare cases.

It has not been "dealt with" because it is not a loophole. It is a deliberate decision in the drafting of the CBA.

 

[joshjull]

Things get overlooked. I'm not surprised that things like this happened and it started at some point, I'm surprised it hasn't been dealt with somehow before now.

I hope this is something that teams really push to get solved whenever the CBA gets revisited, if not before. Teams and their fans deserve better. If there are individual cases where a player feels a team is being vindictive and actively trying to block their development or doing something harmful to the player's career prospects, there shoudl be an aribitration mechanism to resolve those rare cases.

There is nothing that has to be dealt with because its not much of a problem.

The 10 drafts prior to drafting Johnson/Portillo we drafted 23 college players

10 signed NHL contracts
8 were deemed not worthy to sign
3 got AHL deals
1 was traded
1 was lost via UFA

15 of the 23 used up all 4 years of eligibility.

8 deemed not worthy of signing
3 got NHL deals
3 got AHL deals
1 was lost via feee agency.



You're FAR more likely to draft a college player not worth signing to a NHL contract than your are to lose one in free agency.

 

[jmelm]

There is nothing that has to be dealt with because its not much of a problem.

The 10 drafts prior to drafting Johnson/Portillo we drafted 23 college players

10 signed NHL contracts
8 were deemed not worthy to sign
3 got AHL deals
1 was traded
1 was lost via UFA

15 of the 23 used up all 4 years of eligibility.

8 deemed not worthy of signing
3 got NHL deals
3 got AHL deals
1 was lost via feee agency.



You're FAR more likely to draft a college player not worth signing to a NHL contract than your are to lose one in free agency.

I hear you, but I’m thinking league wide, not just the Sabres history of college players.

It NHL teams are bending over to offer a fair of max dollar contract to a prospect they drafted with a pick (especially a high pick) and the player can just wait them out and walk, that doesn’t seem quite fair to me.

If a team is dicking around a player and not offering him a fair contract or taking a good interest in his development, etc., that’s a different story. But there’s a loophole these NCAA players can just exploit that CHL or European players cannot.

It could be something as simple as: if you’re not willing to sign with the team that drafted you, then you have to sit out until Jan 1st. (hence missing training camp and a few months of the season, playing time & pay) until you’re eligible to play for your new NHL club, that would be one idea that’s reasonable.

 

[joshjull]

I hear you, but I’m thinking league wide, not just the Sabres history of college players.

It NHL teams are bending over to offer a fair of max dollar contract to a prospect they drafted with a pick (especially a high pick) and the player can just wait them out and walk, that doesn’t seem quite fair to me.

If a team is dicking around a player and not offering him a fair contract or taking a good interest in his development, etc., that’s a different story. But there’s a loophole these NCAA players can just exploit that CHL or European players cannot.

It could be something as simple as: if you’re not willing to sign with the team that drafted you, then you have to sit out until Jan 1st. (hence missing training camp and a few months of the season, playing time & pay) until you’re eligible to play for your new NHL club, that would be one idea that’s reasonable.

League wide its not a big issue either.

 

[Chainshot]

Instead of, “stop drafting college guys,” how about we, “stop taking it personally when players we draft don’t sign.”

That's up there with not rushing to judgement on these guys one way or another until the situation plays out.

 

[WeDislikeEich]

I wish that they would at least change the rules so if the NHL team offered their college draft pick a contract and he refused, he’d have to re-enter the draft. If the team doesn’t offer a contract, only then let him turn UFA. It would at least take some of the incentive away from choosing not to sign with the team that drafted you.

It just doesn’t seem fair to me that a college player with no NHL experience can earn UFA status just by choosing to stay in school an extra year (or sometimes two, I guess).
It takes NHL players 7 seasons to earn UFA status.

Making them re-enter the draft seems fair to me. At least for picks in the top 2-3 rounds or something. Yes, they’d be older than other players in the draft but that would be their choice.


I don’t think Johnson is definitely gone or anything. I’m just talking in general.

 

[Chainshot]

I wish that they would at least change the rules so if the NHL team offered their college draft pick a contract and he refused, he’d have to re-enter the draft. If the team doesn’t offer a contract, only then let him turn UFA. It would at least take some of the incentive away from choosing not to sign with the team that drafted you.

It just doesn’t seem fair to me that a college player with no NHL experience can earn UFA status just by choosing to stay in school an extra year (or sometimes two, I guess).
It takes NHL players 7 seasons to earn UFA status.

Making them re-enter the draft seems fair to me. At least for picks in the top 2-3 rounds or something. Yes, they’d be older than other players in the draft but that would be their choice.


I don’t think Johnson is definitely gone or anything. I’m just talking in general.

While the player gets destination control, they are still bound by the rules of ELCs. And most players want more destination control, not less, which makes it unlikely that the PA is going to give this condition up.

 

[WeDislikeEich]

While the player gets destination control, they are still bound by the rules of ELCs. And most players want more destination control, not less, which makes it unlikely that the PA is going to give this condition up.

Yeah I agree I don’t see it changing. I don’t think NHL teams care enough about this to give up whatever it would take in the next CBA negotiation to change it. But I do think it would be a fair change to the rule.