Ryan Johansen Saga III

[blahblah]

So the guy that had a training camp holdout of his own (same agent) is advising Johan. Wonderful. Dubinsky should keep his mouth shut and be thankful for the great contract he just received from the Jackets.

I don't get what the issue is.

Can't shake the notion that there was a sort of secondary approach by the agent to this summer and the CBJ as well. Agent represents both Dubinsky and Johansen. Dubinsky signs, Johansen publicly calls him the team's second line center. Now the agent is referring to Johansen as the team's first-line center, positioning him to get paid as such despite the veteran status of his other client and the way the CBA has worked in such matters.

Kind of a happy accident that the Dubinsky deal was done before Johansen eh? I don't think it really played much into the demands, but it situation does seem to support a strategy by the agent in negotiations.

 

[Fro]

Can't shake the notion that there was a sort of secondary approach by the agent to this summer and the CBJ as well. Agent represents both Dubinsky and Johansen. Dubinsky signs, Johansen publicly calls him the team's second line center. Now the agent is referring to Johansen as the team's first-line center, positioning him to get paid as such despite the veteran status of his other client and the way the CBA has worked in such matters.

i had the same thoughts...and was trying to get something from anyone i knew...was happy that porty did the digging...

 

[blahblah]

My prediction of the response: Tavares is underpaid. Why should Johansen take that deal? Give him Toews money. I mean after all he is the next great center based on his breakout season.

Taveres is a bit underpaid, but having said that he's had a much better and consistent career than Johansen. You really couldn't remotely take Z's comments seriously if he even mentioned Toews salary.

On a side note, I'm a little surprised they didn't work a bit on the 8 year deal, that was 16 million over the last two years. Maybe get the cap hit to the 8 year deal in a 6 year form. Get him in position for a great first UFA contract.

 

[Spartin03]

Can't shake the notion that there was a sort of secondary approach by the agent to this summer and the CBJ as well. Agent represents both Dubinsky and Johansen. Dubinsky signs, Johansen publicly calls him the team's second line center. Now the agent is referring to Johansen as the team's first-line center, positioning him to get paid as such despite the veteran status of his other client and the way the CBA has worked in such matters.

Winner winner chicken dinner right there!
It seems to be one of them more calculated moves I have seen. Everyone can piss and moan all they want about what he deserves/doesn’t deserve all day, but that fact of the matter is they are currently in camp and are going to play games with or without him. As Richards said earlier (paraphrasing), its like and injured player, he isn’t here, and we have to deal with him not being here.

Any who, this thing will get resolved after the season opens, I am really not as worried as some of the people on here seem to be. Arguments can be made from both sides of this situation, and honestly both are valid. At the end of the day, once actual money is being lost that is when something will get done.

I think a lot of people are seriously underestimating the love for the game that hockey players at this level have. The sacrifice and commitment it takes to get to this level is something most people can’t fathom. So when you start missing things you feel left out, it sucks. Yes, it is a business, but when you see your buddies playing, and missing out on trips, and being around the boys weighs on you. It's not a good feeling. And if the team gets off to a bad start then management is not going to like that he isn’t around. The point is once the actual season starts this will get done.

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

Despite all the screaming from both sides, I still expect a deal to get done before too long. On the 8 year deal, for example, the Jackets offered $46 million and the demand was $68 million. If both sides are negotiating in a normal manner, they would both have movement room. Columbus would certainly pay at least $50 million and he would take at least $60 million, so you are really arguing within a spread of $1,250,000 a year, which is not very much in a $60 million+ cap world for your best young player and a gap that can easily be closed. In a 2 year deal, there seems little doubt he would take $5 million per year and Columbus would pay $4 million. So that is the area of debate.

At the end of the day, both sides are motivated to get it done. If he sits out even 1/3 of a season he will struggle to recapture the loss in any short term deal. Per an article last season, every playoff game played at home adds $2 million. Columbus has not reached a level yet where they can lose a star without making their playoff chances much more difficult. Not having Johansen for any period of time has a decent chance of costing the team $6 million (3 playoff games). So I expect both sides will roll their eyes and stomp their feet a bit longer than both move to the range where it becomes stupid to not get it done.

 

[pete goegan]

So the guy that had a training camp holdout of his own (same agent) is advising Johan. Wonderful. Dubinsky should keep his mouth shut and be thankful for the great contract he just received from the Jackets.

If you read the article, Dubi said that the holdout was one of the worst times of his life.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Long-term deals off the table (according to Dreger at least). Focus is on a short-term deal.

Didn't see any numbers on the new two-year offer from KO. I think he has to come down to below $11 million in total for the Jackets to even respond beyond a "no." But who knows.

 

[Nanabijou]

and there's the answer i was wondering about...thanks Porty



http://bluejacketsxtra.dispatch.com...insky-knows-how-difficult-holdout-can-be.html

I think another interesting quote in there is this one:

“Mine was a different situation, but I’m not proud of it,” said Dubinsky, who like Johansen was coming off an entry-level contract as a restricted free agent.

I think we have all been in situations in work and in relationships where we dig our heels in an argument that in hindsight doesn't seem to have been worth it. (Hell, maybe even Mayor Bee feels the same about his pro-Howson arguments! - Just kidding, MB)

I worry that will be the case for Joey here. Although it all worked out for Dubi, my guess is he feels a tinge of regret that he keeps be being brought up as an example of someone who sat out training camp. Again it worked out for him and us, but I wonder if he believes that the contentious negotiation also contributed to him being overlooked for captaincy and eventually being offered up in the trade for Nash versus say Callahan. It's great to get paid but there is a downside to this approach, especially when used on the second contract versus the third when the balance of leverage starts to shift.

Yes, no one wants to leave money on the table. But, I still wonder whether Joey will look back on this negotiation with regret when all is said is done. Pick your battles, Joey and "make them pay" on the next contract.

 

[blahblah]

Despite all the screaming from both sides, I still expect a deal to get done before too long.

I don't expect anything to happen before mid-to-late October, at the earliest, unless Johansen pushes his agent or someone helps the situation along by extending an offer sheet or we get a trade (doubt the latter)

I think there is a December deadline to sign to play at all this season. If that date hits, Johansen has cost himself a season. He won't recover that money with a contract for next season.

The longer this goes the more and more money Johansen is going to lose out on. I don't see how he gets over 4.5 in a two year deal, so he and his agent should have that in the back of their mind. Obviously the Jacket's front office called his "bluff" on the pressure being on the Jackets. The Jackets clearly aren't going to sign a deal out of desperation to have Johansen on the ice to start the season. They feel they are deep up the middle and have people internally that can step in an minimize his loss.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

Interesting comment on Horton, his horrible disaster contract i, in your words. How long has he been with the jackets ? 1 year

Every website I have been the comments are overwhelmingly in favor of jackets management. I would venture that 90% of the comments are johansen is crazy to turn down guaranteed close to 6 mill a year, for one good season. If you follow hockey writers, they have all tweeted the same thing even posting comparables of bridge deals many of whom have much better numbers for there first 3 years. Didn't Jeff skinner just sign a 6 yr 34 mill contract ? Here's a blurb....The new contract extends the term to 2018-19 and wraps up a dynamic young player who already has 51 goals, 107 points, an All-Star Game, and a Calder Trophy on his NHL resume after just two seasons.

Still waiting for you to provide another one of the "many examples" of Ryan Johansen's work ethic and attitude issues...you know, the kid whose attitude and work ethic are so bad our front office wanted him locked up for 8 years. Are you going to respond and back up your point or just admit you are blowing out way out of proportion one small "incident" and your argument is baseless?

Sweet blurb bro, but Jeff Skinner's contract was signed 2 years ago. Different market today, different cap situation today, different everything today. But nice try. Most young players who took the term and guaranteed money probably regret it seeing the kind of deals that are happening now and will happen over the next year or two. Joey's agent is being smart and protecting his client from becoming the next Tavares, Seguin, or Landeskog who are going to be severely underpaid during some of the prime years of their careers.

As far as Horton goes, his deal was horrible at the time and looks even worse now. He's not getting any younger or any less injury prone and will continue to be albatross. It was a typical JD move - who is all about promoting himself. He got a bunch of headlines for signing a "name" free agent, consequences to the team be damned. He got his headlines for trading for Gaborik, then once Gabby got hurt and wasn't getting JD and the Jackets any pub, dumped him for nothing. But not before him and Jarmo made sure to badmouth Gabby to the press to try to cover their azzez when they dumped him for nothing...Even though all his teammates loved him and he always produces on the ice, but of course, the groupthink crowd here just follows the words of Porty, who follows the story the front office leaks him, instead of you know, reporting...exactly what's now happening with the Joey situation, the dispatch is basically acting as a mouthpiece for the narrative the front office is spinning.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

Can't shake the notion that there was a sort of secondary approach by the agent to this summer and the CBJ as well. Agent represents both Dubinsky and Johansen. Dubinsky signs, Johansen publicly calls him the team's second line center. Now the agent is referring to Johansen as the team's first-line center, positioning him to get paid as such despite the veteran status of his other client and the way the CBA has worked in such matters.

I think you are reading way to much into Joey tweeting congrats to a teammate on a new contract.

I mean maybe it's all a conspiracy because Joey doesn't want to play for Brad Larsen, who benched him in Springfield, which is apparently the biggest scandal to hit the NHL ever, but I doubt it.

Johansen was the team's number one center last year and thrived in the role and projects as the team's number one center long-term going forward. He doesn't need to tweet at Dubie calling him the number two for this to be true.

 

[DarkandStormy]

He's not getting any younger

Does anybody?

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

Does anybody?

When you sign players to long-term deals, age is a factor as is injury history. JD ignored both because he wanted to make a public splash with the Horton deal and it is already backfiring big time and there is 6 years left.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Still waiting for you to provide another one of the "many examples" of Ryan Johansen's work ethic and attitude issues...you know, the kid whose attitude and work ethic are so bad our front office wanted him locked up for 8 years. Are you going to respond and back up your point or just admit you are blowing out way out of proportion one small "incident" and your argument is baseless?

Sweet blurb bro, but Jeff Skinner's contract was signed 2 years ago. Different market today, different cap situation today, different everything today. But nice try. Most young players who took the term and guaranteed money probably regret it seeing the kind of deals that are happening now and will happen over the next year or two. Joey's agent is being smart and protecting his client from becoming the next Tavares, Seguin, or Landeskog who are going to be severely underpaid during some of the prime years of their careers.

As far as Horton goes, his deal was horrible at the time and looks even worse now. He's not getting any younger or any less injury prone and will continue to be albatross. It was a typical JD move - who is all about promoting himself. He got a bunch of headlines for signing a "name" free agent, consequences to the team be damned. He got his headlines for trading for Gaborik, then once Gabby got hurt and wasn't getting JD and the Jackets any pub, dumped him for nothing. But not before him and Jarmo made sure to badmouth Gabby to the press to try to cover their azzez when they dumped him for nothing...Even though all his teammates loved him and he always produces on the ice, but of course, the groupthink crowd here just follows the words of Porty, who follows the story the front office leaks him, instead of you know, reporting...exactly what's now happening with the Joey situation, the dispatch is basically acting as a mouthpiece for the narrative the front office is spinning.

You just choose to have selective reading, I quoted word for word from the dispatch stating that management and the coaches for 2 years didnt see the effort or consistency needed , and that it boiled to a head with his benching in Springfield. Do you expect Jarmo to come out and say, Ryan sucked in practice , and isnt trying. Thats 2 years worth, they are referring to , and his numbers clearly backe that up. Also, I would say look at managements statements, if that 2 years didnt exist, they would probably be enamored by his skill like you are, and offer a long term contract, with very good money. seems to me we have never had a problem paying our players. But they arent, we get statements, like he needs to earn it . If you cant read between the lines, I dont know what to tell you. Its easy to spend managements money if you look at skill of a player, but they see day to day, behind the scenes. For example your Avatar, and screen name, Zherdev had alot of skill, problem is, he was a lazy piece of monkey crap, and he had no heart. So now he finds himself, not in the nhl. Obviously your we enamored with Zherdev, so not sure why I waste my time responding.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

You just choose to have selective reading, I quoted word for word from the dispatch stating that management and the coaches for 2 years didnt see the effort or consistency needed , and that it boiled to a head with his benching in Springfield. Do you expect Jarmo to come out and say, Ryan sucked in practice , and isnt trying. Thats 2 years worth, they are referring to , and his numbers clearly backe that up. Also, I would say look at managements statements, if that 2 years didnt exist, they would probably be enamored by his skill like you are, and offer a long term contract, with very good money. seems to me we have never had a problem paying our players. But they arent, we get statements, like he needs to earn it . If you cant read between the lines, I dont know what to tell you. Its easy to spend managements money if you look at skill of a player, but they see day to day, behind the scenes. For example your Avatar, and screen name, Zherdev had alot of skill, problem is, he was a lazy piece of monkey crap, and he had no heart. So now he finds himself, not in the nhl. Obviously your we enamored with Zherdev, so not sure why I waste my time responding.

So you've gone from saying there a bunch of examples you can list of Joey's work ethic and attitude issues, and Fro, EDM, etc keeping backing that up and insisting a bunch of examples have been listed in this thread. When really you guys just keep harping on the Springfield benching, as if that is the defining moment of Joey's career. You can't list a single other "incident" to back up your character attacks on Joey and are now saying I need to read the between the lines of quotes to the media as if that's somehow proof of bad character. Please, it's a GM and trying to push a young guy to develop and get better.

And then you resort to making fun of my username, which is usually what people do when they don't have a response to an actual discussion point. And if my username means I am "enamored with Zherdev" I would hate to think what your username means you are enamored with.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I think you are reading way to much into Joey tweeting congrats to a teammate on a new contract.

I mean maybe it's all a conspiracy because Joey doesn't want to play for Brad Larsen, who benched him in Springfield, which is apparently the biggest scandal to hit the NHL ever, but I doubt it.

Johansen was the team's number one center last year and thrived in the role and projects as the team's number one center long-term going forward. He doesn't need to tweet at Dubie calling him the number two for this to be true.

I'm still waiting for anyone to provide me specific instances that meet my criteria of a player tweeting backhanded congratulations for a new contract to another player on the same team with the same agent in the same offseason in which that tweeting player is also up for a new contract, or specific instances in which Johansen has said publicly he'd be happy to play for Brad Larsen despite being benched in the minors two seasons ago.

I mean, what good is an opinion if you can't back it up with facts?

 

[Fro]

ugh...dude there are multiple things in this thread but they kill your credibility and your story so you choose to ignore them...i'll list them slowly one last time...

- yes the springfield incidents
- coming out and calling the original offer a slap in the face...guess what, that's being immature and started this whole thing being in the public like this
- taking his ball and going home
- the tweet to dubi about him being our number 2 centre

i'm sorry man, but YOU ARE WRONG...and the fact that so many of us keep bringing these things up, mean that we accept them as part of the story...just b/c you choose not to, does not make them go away...


in other news...i'm out for the day....headed to the arena for camp...enjoy

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

I'm still waiting for anyone to provide me specific instances that meet my criteria of a player tweeting backhanded congratulations for a new contract to another player on the same team with the same agent in the same offseason in which that tweeting player is also up for a new contract, or specific instances in which Johansen has said publicly he'd be happy to play for Brad Larsen despite being benched in the minors two seasons ago.

I mean, what good is an opinion if you can't back it up with facts?

There was nothing backhanded about Joey's tweet. They're buddies. You and others are choosing to make something more of it but to call it backhanded is completely baseless.

Why does Joey have to publicly say he's happy to play for Brad Larsen? Have any other players done that? Must have missed those press conferences. In all his years coaching Springfield do you honestly think Joey was the only player who was benched, or had his ice time cut, etc? Puh-leeze.

Derick Brassard just went to the Stanely Cup finals with Scott Arniel as his assistant coach. Brassard's issues with Arniel were much worse than anything between Joey and Larsen, and yet they coexist just fine currently. The overdramatics you guys are spewing on here about the benching 2 years are ridiculous.

 

[We Want Ten]

So you've gone from saying there a bunch of examples you can list of Joey's work ethic and attitude issues, and Fro, EDM, etc keeping backing that up and insisting a bunch of examples have been listed in this thread. When really you guys just keep harping on the Springfield benching, as if that is the defining moment of Joey's career. You can't list a single other "incident" to back up your character attacks on Joey and are now saying I need to read the between the lines of quotes to the media as if that's somehow proof of bad character. Please, it's a GM and trying to push a young guy to develop and get better.

If you haven't heard or seen enough to make you have questions about this guys character, nothing anyone can link will change your mind.

And if you are honest, Joey only has 2 defining moments in his career, last season and the benching. Maybe we could see a little more before baking up the Brinks truck.

“I’ve earned more than a two- or three-year deal with my play,†Johansen said. “It seems a little disrespectful, to be honest. ... I want to play in Columbus, and I want to be a Blue Jacket, but I want to get this done. It seems like a slap in the face.â€

“We’re not even close. They say, ‘We want to sign you to a bridge deal.’ We say, ‘We don’t want to do a bridge, and that’s the end of it,â€

“The more I played, the more we won last season, and I got better the more I played,†Johansen. “I don’t see the issue.â€

His own comments during the contract negotiations cause concern for me about his character.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

ugh...dude there are multiple things in this thread but they kill your credibility and your story so you choose to ignore them...i'll list them slowly one last time...

- yes the springfield incidents
- coming out and calling the original offer a slap in the face...guess what, that's being immature and started this whole thing being in the public like this
- taking his ball and going home
- the tweet to dubi about him being our number 2 centre

i'm sorry man, but YOU ARE WRONG...and the fact that so many of us keep bringing these things up, mean that we accept them as part of the story...just b/c you choose not to, does not make them go away...


in other news...i'm out for the day....headed to the arena for camp...enjoy

The springfield "incidents" plural. There was one.

The rest of your list has to do with the contract dispute. The kid has developed into a beast on the ice, was amazing last year, and this "list" of yours is all innuendo from his recent contract dispute. I'm not ignoring that he was benched in Springfield or dissatisfied with the Jackets first contract offer, I'm just not turning that into wild and baseless character assassination against the kid.

Not sure how you take away he is a bad character guy with work issues because he's involved in a contract dispute. Dubinsky, Benn, Subban, Weber, Jaden Schartz, O'Reilly...disputes happen all the time. Hockey is also a business, this stuff happens. Your boy Porty has gushed about the shape joey is in and how hard he trains, yet you continue to push that he has a bad work ethic, and your proof is...he was benched in Springfield once 2 years ago and he "took his ball and went home" during a contract negotiation (which again, is normal for these kind of things). OK.

I know you'd like to think hockey isn't a business and it's all Rob Mixer puff pieces about candy, rainbows, and Ryan Murray's banjo, but it's not. There is a business side to things that needs to be handled.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

If you haven't heard or seen enough to make you have questions about this guys character, nothing anyone can link will change your mind.

And if you are honest, Joey only has 2 defining moments in his career, last season and the benching. Maybe we could see a little more before baking up the Brinks truck.







His own comments during the contract negotiations cause concern for me about his character.

By you and Fro's line of thinking, you wouldn't want to pay Patrick Kane and probably traded him after his partying and cabbie incidents. You would have traded and publicly bashed Jamie Benn and PK Subban for holding out. You wouldn't have matched Diva O'Reilly's over sheet and let him take his ball back to Calgary.

And in all those cases, the teams would have been much worse.

 

[KJ Dangler]

The springfield "incidents" plural. There was one.

The rest of your list has to do with the contract dispute. The kid has developed into a beast on the ice, was amazing last year, and this "list" of yours is all innuendo from his recent contract dispute. I'm not ignoring that he was benched in Springfield or dissatisfied with the Jackets first contract offer, I'm just not turning that into wild and baseless character assassination against the kid.

Not sure how you take away he is a bad character guy with work issues because he's involved in a contract dispute. Dubinsky, Benn, Subban, Weber, Jaden Schartz, O'Reilly...disputes happen all the time. Hockey is also a business, this stuff happens. Your boy Porty has gushed about the shape joey is in and how hard he trains, yet you continue to push that he has a bad work ethic, and your proof is...he was benched in Springfield once 2 years ago and he "took his ball and went home" during a contract negotiation (which again, is normal for these kind of things). OK.

I know you'd like to think hockey isn't a business and it's all Rob Mixer puff pieces about candy, rainbows, and Ryan Murray's banjo, but it's not. There is a business side to things that needs to be handled.

If management puts out there that they had to ride the kids ass for 2 years citing work ethic and consistency, that the springfild benching was the final straw that came to a head. What part of the full 2 years them riding his azz makes you think there are no issues ? When they come out and say, he had 1 great year, bu we need to see more, does that not tell you that they may think last year was once again Joey turning it on when he needs to to get paid. If your married, ignore your spouse, and when you want some, treat your wife nice, and see if she thinks its honkey dorey. The point I'm making is they certainly look at the whole relationship, not when Joey apllied himself to get paid.

 

[Dr. Fire]

I, too, think something gets done before the regular season gets started. Would be completely stupid for both sides not to get it done.

Having said that, I am now done with the Johan saga until something pops. I am now dwelling on the players in camp, and the first pre-season game on Sunday.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

If management puts out there that they had to ride the kids ass for 2 years citing work ethic and consistency, that the springfild benching was the final straw that came to a head. What part of the full 2 years them riding his azz makes you think there are no issues ? When they come out and say, he had 1 great year, bu we need to see more, does that not tell you that they may think last year was once again Joey turning it on when he needs to to get paid. If your married, ignore your spouse, and when you want some, treat your wife nice, and see if she thinks its honkey dorey. The point I'm making is they certainly look at the whole relationship, not when Joey apllied himself to get paid.

Do you honestly believe Ryan Johansen only plays hard when management is "riding is ***?"

If so, that is a ridiculous conclusion to draw from the the comments you are referring to. The kid in impeccable shape and playing hard has never been an ongoing issue with him, just one blip in Springfield that you guys are turning into Chernobyl. He loves the game and has dominated at every level of play. The front office wanted to make sure he kept working hard and improving, and push him to be his best. That's smart of them and he certainly responded with his on ice performance. Totally wrong to imply that his on-ice success is due to some Jarmo quotes to the media and not due his personal skill, training, and work.

 

[db2011]

ugh...dude there are multiple things in this thread but they kill your credibility and your story so you choose to ignore them...i'll list them slowly one last time...

- yes the springfield incidents
- coming out and calling the original offer a slap in the face...guess what, that's being immature and started this whole thing being in the public like this
- taking his ball and going home
- the tweet to dubi about him being our number 2 centre

i'm sorry man, but YOU ARE WRONG...and the fact that so many of us keep bringing these things up, mean that we accept them as part of the story...just b/c you choose not to, does not make them go away...


in other news...i'm out for the day....headed to the arena for camp...enjoy

Character issues are when guys are abusing substances and/or abusing people. Look at the NFL for what real character issues are.

What you're hanging on your hat on are personality differences you have with the guy, but they are not indicative of any pattern of delinquent behavior. If you think the last three things in your list constitute red-flag level character issues, I'd think a lot of players have characters issues to you, then. Would you decline to have Patty Kane on the team?