Ryan Johansen Saga III

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Well, maybe I consider you guilty by associating with the likes of Fro and his "joey is immature because he takes his ball and goes home" nonsense.

I don't think everyone rehashing the Springfield benching is really legit, and it seems this thread is people just doing that over and over again, and using the fact that Jarmo and JD want to push him to get better to mean that he has to drive, desire, or work ethic. But I apologize for lumping you in with that crowd.

Not sure what you mean by 'associating'.

Additionally you've chosen not to address other potentially "opposing" concerns in the process. I gotta tell ya, it doesn't help your credibility. (Not that I expect you to care one whit what I think, but if you're gonna keep on keepin' on about just one thing...)

 

[TaketheCannoli]

So you've gone from saying there a bunch of examples you can list of Joey's work ethic and attitude issues, and Fro, EDM, etc keeping backing that up and insisting a bunch of examples have been listed in this thread. When really you guys just keep harping on the Springfield benching, as if that is the defining moment of Joey's career. You can't list a single other "incident" to back up your character attacks on Joey and are now saying I need to read the between the lines of quotes to the media as if that's somehow proof of bad character. Please, it's a GM and trying to push a young guy to develop and get better.

And then you resort to making fun of my username, which is usually what people do when they don't have a response to an actual discussion point. And if my username means I am "enamored with Zherdev" I would hate to think what your username means you are enamored with.

I just have to ask. Let's assume Johansen has never done anything that could be considered out of line.

Now that that is out of the way, what facts can you cite to support his salary demands?

 

[cslebn]

This thread reminds me of some of the quality engineers and auditors I've had to work with. We build something to meet requirements. We meet the requirements. We proved that with qual and test. They think something is wrong so the onus is on us to prove that whatever fabricated bs question is not relevant to the requirements rather than them prove why it matters or that what they said is true.

The league currently functions that you get paid based on past performance. UFA is paid a certain way. RFA is paid a certain way. Trade value is determined separately from both (though impacted by both). I feel lie that's been forgotten here. Right or wrong, young players full of potential get paid within the RFA confines and then are rewarded later.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I think that substantial regression risk in Johansen isn't very high. Had he been the beneficiary of an outstanding playmaker, a top goal scorer on his line, or a power play that had a through-the-roof efficiency, then I would give the risk of a regression a much stronger possibility, but given that none of these were part of the equation, I don't see why there would be much risk.

I'm not going to do the homework on it, but I am going to doubt that ANY of the examples of regression you cited (or could cite) led his team in scoring by a percentage as high as Johansen (I know none of them did) or led the team in scoring period (I don't know about this). His stats may not be as heady as last year in certain areas (Tie for 5th in ES goals/60 minutes and 11th overall in goals), but it's unlikely that his overall production drops substantially. Unless he gets very little offensive support from his teammates.

It sounds like what you're saying at the top is that Johansen isn't surrounded by a lot of high-end talent. If that's the case, isn't there possibly a concern about what I've bolded?

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

I just have to ask. Let's assume Johansen has never done anything that could be considered out of line.

Now that that is out of the way, what facts can you cite to support his salary demands?

Hmmm...well, I guess you didn't watch the team last year to ask such a question.

But to answer, here are the facts:

He's 22 years old.

He stands 6'3, 223 pounds.

Last season he played all 82 games and has no real injury concerns.

As a 21 year old kid he put up 33 goals, 30 assists, was +3, played on the top line and routinely against top centers and defenders, had 5 game winning goals and 7 powerplay points. It is very rare that a player has their best NHL season as a 21 year old most players who show that kind of touch at a young age build off that. Especially if they keep working, and by Aaron Portzline's reporting, he has trained extremely hard this summer, packed on muscle and is in great shape coming into this season.

He is slotted to be our number one center this year, play number one center minutes and responsibilities, and build off last years numbers, he's not even into his prime yet and has already proven to be a force who acts as one of the main catalysts of getting this team into the playoffs. His agent wants him to be paid accordingly and I don't blame him.

The other basic part of business is "demands" in a negotiation which you and others don't seem to understand. His agent is asking for a high number, the front office is asking for a low number. They need to negotiate a deal that is satisfactory to both parties. His agent routinely is coming to the table and making offers, our front office are the ones throwing public tantrums, refusing to meet, acting like petulant children and making it a media fiasco (what Fro likes to call "taking a ball and going home"). The front office shouldn't expect KO to accept their lowball offer just because he is restricted and under team control per the CBA. Just like the front office doesn't have to accept "outrageous" terms from KO.

Toews and Kane's agent asked for $12 million and settled for $10.5. Their initial ask was high and would have been brutal to the Hawks cap. But that's all it was, an initial proposal from and agent that was negotiated down to something more reasonable. Initial agent "demands" usually aren't what the final amount is.

But again, as I keep asking - what exactly has Johanseon done that is out of line? Cam Atkinson has been scratched before, Wiz has been suspended multiple times, Dubinsky has taken awful penalties and been suspended, Joey got benched once in the AHL. Most players get benched or scratched at some point in their careers, especially when they're young - it's a learning experience and part of the maturation process.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

Not sure what you mean by 'associating'.

Additionally you've chosen not to address other potentially "opposing" concerns in the process. I gotta tell ya, it doesn't help your credibility. (Not that I expect you to care one whit what I think, but if you're gonna keep on keepin' on about just one thing...)

What concern haven't I addressed? I feel like I've gone out of my way to address them all. Let me know and I will make sure to address them in my next response.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

It sounds like what you're saying at the top is that Johansen isn't surrounded by a lot of high-end talent. If that's the case, isn't there possibly a concern about what I've bolded?

Not really.

Even if his numbers fall off somewhat from last year's levels, Johansen will most likely still be the top scorer on the team. So, while I'd rather see him score 70 points this coming season, if he produces 57 and still leads the team by 10 points then he's still as productive, relatively speaking within the team framework, as he was last year.

I don't think it's an insult to say the Jackets didn't have any high end scoring talent last season. The Jackets have plenty of youngsters (Atkinson, Jenner, perhaps Calvert and who knows about all the draftees) who have decent scoring potential and several decent vets like Foligno, Dubinski, Hartnell and Asinimov and even Letestu who are all capable of generating significant points.

Still, the lack of any other top notch forward scorers made Johansen's productivity levels appear even more impressive than they already were.

Johansen did and will benefit from playing with Wiz who is a top notch PP producer and decent at ES. Wiz is worth a lot of points for Johansen as, I hope Murray will be as his development continues.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

What concern haven't I addressed? I feel like I've gone out of my way to address them all. Let me know and I will make sure to address them in my next response.

If you like, find the batch of my posts that quote you and see. Some of them even sort of agree with you. I'm not asking you to address them now.

 

[Jive Pawnbroker]

I don't get your point. It is pretty comparable with players around his performance and skill level. How much more was Johansen's camp looking for? How much is a "reasonable" offer? If either the six or eight year were close they would have continued talking.

Most people consider the 5.25 or so million to be pretty competitive based on his performance history. He's obviously not worth Stamkos money. I don't think any of us see 50+ goals in his future. He's obviously not a 100 point+ guy, like a Malkin or Crosby. I know we see the Kane and Toews deal, but Johansen doesn't have Cups or their history of performance to back up anything close to that.

Perhaps you should tell us what number would satisfy you and base that on recent contracts. Seems to be that something close to what Taveres got on a long term deal seems fair. Are you saying it wouldn't be? If so, why?

blahblah asked IHeartZ a very good question earlier in this thread (above) that he never responded to that might give him a chance to explain better to many of us why (particularly as to relates to the bolded part of bb's question) Ryan should get what he wants besides:

He's 22 years old

He's 6'3" 223 lbs.

He scored 60+ points last year (oh and was a +3),

He doesn't get injured much, and

He's slotted to be the first line center this year.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

blahblah asked IHeartZ a very good question earlier in this thread (above) that he never responded to that might give him a chance to explain better to many of us why (particularly as to relates to the bolded part of bb's question) Ryan should get what he wants besides:

He's 22 years old

He's 6'3" 223 lbs.

He scored 60+ points last year (oh and was a +3),

He doesn't get injured much, and

He's slotted to be the first line center this year.

Did you not watch the team last year? Do you honestly think Ryan Johansen deserves to be paid less than Nick Foligno? I like how you scoff at Joey's numbers and measurables. Sorry, would you prefer Mark Letstu center the top line?

What exactly didn't I answer? I never said he deserved "Toews money" or that the front office should just "give him what he wants" but they do need to work with his agent to get a deal done and not hide behind the CBA and whine to the press. Numerous times I believe I mentioned the two year term should be in the $5 to 5.5 million range per year.

And for everyone looking at past deals, the market changes every year and the cap has been going up and projected to go up.

Sorry that you feel his NHL numbers, projected numbers going forward, role on the team, and elite measureables are secondary to getting benched in the AHL one time 2 years ago.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

This thread is page after page of the same people saying the same things and changing absolutely nobodies mind.

I just want this to end so this thread can, too

 

[Socks]

This thread is page after page of the same people saying the same things and changing absolutely nobodies mind.

I just want this to end so this thread can, too

I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

[db2011]

blahblah asked IHeartZ a very good question earlier in this thread (above) that he never responded to that might give him a chance to explain better to many of us why (particularly as to relates to the bolded part of bb's question) Ryan should get what he wants besides:

He's 22 years old

He's 6'3" 223 lbs.

He scored 60+ points last year (oh and was a +3),

He doesn't get injured much, and

He's slotted to be the first line center this year.

Because the average cap hit for players who have achieved what Ryan did by age 21 (one season of 30 g and 30 a) is just north of 10%, which in dollar terms is $7.2 million.

Davidson scoffs at $4 million.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Hmmm...well, I guess you didn't watch the team last year to ask such a question.

But to answer, here are the facts:

He's 22 years old.

He stands 6'3, 223 pounds.

Last season he played all 82 games and has no real injury concerns.

As a 21 year old kid he put up 33 goals, 30 assists, was +3, played on the top line and routinely against top centers and defenders, had 5 game winning goals and 7 powerplay points. It is very rare that a player has their best NHL season as a 21 year old most players who show that kind of touch at a young age build off that. Especially if they keep working, and by Aaron Portzline's reporting, he has trained extremely hard this summer, packed on muscle and is in great shape coming into this season.

He is slotted to be our number one center this year, play number one center minutes and responsibilities, and build off last years numbers, he's not even into his prime yet and has already proven to be a force who acts as one of the main catalysts of getting this team into the playoffs. His agent wants him to be paid accordingly and I don't blame him.

The other basic part of business is "demands" in a negotiation which you and others don't seem to understand. His agent is asking for a high number, the front office is asking for a low number. They need to negotiate a deal that is satisfactory to both parties. His agent routinely is coming to the table and making offers, our front office are the ones throwing public tantrums, refusing to meet, acting like petulant children and making it a media fiasco (what Fro likes to call "taking a ball and going home"). The front office shouldn't expect KO to accept their lowball offer just because he is restricted and under team control per the CBA. Just like the front office doesn't have to accept "outrageous" terms from KO.

Toews and Kane's agent asked for $12 million and settled for $10.5. Their initial ask was high and would have been brutal to the Hawks cap. But that's all it was, an initial proposal from and agent that was negotiated down to something more reasonable. Initial agent "demands" usually aren't what the final amount is.

But again, as I keep asking - what exactly has Johanseon done that is out of line? Cam Atkinson has been scratched before, Wiz has been suspended multiple times, Dubinsky has taken awful penalties and been suspended, Joey got benched once in the AHL. Most players get benched or scratched at some point in their careers, especially when they're young - it's a learning experience and part of the maturation process.

I already suggested we assume he has done nothing that could be questioned or out of line.

I'm sorry, you may have misunderstood my question.

I am not asking for your opinion or conjecture about what he will become. There are no guarantees he will actually become anything good, bad, or indifferent. The way to handle belief in what someone will become is to even out the risk. Only execute one year contracts or like the NFL eliminate guaranteed contracts and allow for renegotiation.

What facts can you offer that support his salary demands?

 

[DarkandStormy]

And for everyone looking at past deals, the market changes every year and the cap has been going up and projected to go up.

That's why I've used % of cap at the time on the Duchene, Couture, and Stepan deals. Give him 5-7% of the current cap. That's a 2 year / $8-$9 million bridge.

Sure, the cap has gone up. That's why many here have stuck with the percentage of the cap similar to the last few bridge deals.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Because the average cap hit for players who have achieved what Ryan did by age 21 (one season of 30 g and 30 a) is just north of 10%, which in dollar terms is $7.2 million.

Davidson scoffs at $4 million.

I mean, I guess if you just skip over his barely-there production of the first two years....

 

[orthosrgn2]

JK/JD certainly know what upper limit they are willing to offer RyJo. I am certain they also want #19 to be in the fold. I feel they are hoping to see a positive trend in the player before they open the bank, because they have an internal cap, want to ice the best team and need to be responsible to the entire team. I suggest they offer that # on a 2 year deal and say take it or leave it. If KO/RyJo balk then I doubt their commitment to this team's overall concept. I would say "thank you" but negotiations are closed. Any subsequent offer would be less a percent based on the # of games missed. The only other alternative would be a trade that offered management a suitable return, otherwise....sit for the whole year!

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

I already suggested we assume he has done nothing that could be questioned or out of line.

I'm sorry, you may have misunderstood my question.

I am not asking for your opinion or conjecture about what he will become. There are no guarantees he will actually become anything good, bad, or indifferent. The way to handle belief in what someone will become is to even out the risk. Only execute one year contracts or like the NFL eliminate guaranteed contracts and allow for renegotiation.

What facts can you offer that support his salary demands?

Apparently you don't understand then when the FO receives a contract offer, it's not a "demand" from a someone trying to extort them. This isn't a hostage situation where Joey is quitting the Blue Jackets until his "demands" are met. It's a contract proposal and the front office can then offer a counter proposal. It's a business negotiation, both sides should be talking and trading proposals until a a contract is worked out.

And as far as your concern that Joey is really no good and only had one year and he doesn't have the heart of a real player like D-Mac, a 2 year term (which he has agreed to) protects the team if he does turn out to be a bust, since they aren't on the hook long term.

 

[Jive Pawnbroker]

I mean, I guess if you just skip over his barely-there production of the first two years....

That, along with the players who he's referring to who make 10% of their respective team's cap currently are likely in their UFA years vs. their RFA years (if not, I'd like to know who they are).

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

I mean, I guess if you just skip over his barely-there production of the first two years....

Seriously, all players need to be paid according to what they did as 19 year olds.

 

[WannabeFinn]

JK/JD certainly know what upper limit they are willing to offer RyJo. I am certain they also want #19 to be in the fold. I feel they are hoping to see a positive trend in the player before they open the bank, because they have an internal cap, want to ice the best team and need to be responsible to the entire team. I suggest they offer that # on a 2 year deal and say take it or leave it. If KO/RyJo balk then I doubt their commitment to this team's overall concept. I would say "thank you" but negotiations are closed. Any subsequent offer would be less a percent based on the # of games missed. The only other alternative would be a trade that offered management a suitable return, otherwise....sit for the whole year!

according to who/what?

 

[pete goegan]

From Puckrakers,

Today's Cannon Fodder is a fair examination of the situation:

http://bluejacketsxtra.dispatch.com...-podcast--partly-cloudy-outlook-for-fans.html

Interestingly, or frighteningly, they describe the front office of looking very MacLeanish! They all agree that $3mil/yr for two years is too low, but that the other side's demands are outrageous. Porty thinks $4-4.5/yr is fair, Arace sees $9.8 total as fair. All three guys insist Ryan is a really good kid and very popular in the room. In all, it's a very interesting discussion, including talk of Horton, lineup possibilities, rookies, etc.

 

[Socks]

Seriously, all players need to be paid according to what they did as 19 year olds.

Seriously, all players need to be paid according to what they did in one good year.

Can go both ways.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Seriously, all players need to be paid according to what they did as 19 year olds.

He just turned 22. He has THREE NHL seasons on his resume. You can't simply skim over two of them because you don't like them.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Today's Cannon Fodder is a fair examination of the situation:

http://bluejacketsxtra.dispatch.com...-podcast--partly-cloudy-outlook-for-fans.html

Interestingly, or frighteningly, they describe the front office of looking very MacLeanish! They all agree that $3mil/yr for two years is too low, but that the other side's demands are outrageous. Porty thinks $4-4.5/yr is fair, Arace sees $9.8 total as fair. All three guys insist Ryan is a really good kid and very popular in the room. In all, it's a very interesting discussion, including talk of Horton, lineup possibilities, rookies, etc.

2 years, 8.6 mill is more than fair, I agree 2 yrs at 3 mill is low, but if he wont sign the 2 year 8.6, and a few weeks drag on, I think its time to explore some trade talks, because when he does finally give in after the season has started, he will probably already have mind made up that he doesnt resign here in 2 years.