RW Matvei Michkov - HC Sochi, KHL (2023 Draft) - PART 3

[BB88]

Actually those stats will be pretty comparable if Michkov plays enough games, cuz both pre-draft Ovi and Matvei are playing in low-scoring leagues. There was only 1 PPG producer (Maxim Sushinskiy) in the 2003-2004 Russian Superleague season and there are only 2 PPG producers (Nikita Gusev and Stephen Da Costa) in the KHL this season

World changes a lot in 20 years and KHL lost an insane amount of talent last year.

 

[NatusVincere]

Michkov certainly had the Olympics in mind with the term until 2026. He'd rather buy himself out of the existing contract than extend it again in Russia. He'll just be too good for the KHL.

Otherwise I don't understand the talk about his position. Bedard goes at no 1. Where exactly Michkov comes behind is completely irrelevant. Rather, he should make a Jagr and try to influence Teams who he ends up. There are also advantages not going 1st... imagine something like Arizona having the 1OA.

 

[biscuits and guitar]

World changes a lot in 20 years and KHL lost an insane amount of talent last year.

That's fair enough, but there wasn't lots of talent in the Russian Superleague back in the day. I've been supporting Salavat Yulaev Ufa and watching Russian League games since the early 2000s, so I can make approximate comparisons between the present and the past. Talentwise Russian League (KHL) peaked between 2009 and 2014. Sooo, old Russian Superleague from 2004 and today's KHL both are mainly built around homegrown players and I think they are compatible talentwise.

 

[Kshahdoo]

World changes a lot in 20 years and KHL lost an insane amount of talent last year.

Insane? The league has lost 17 out of 50 top scores, and got quite a few new interesting players. Plus the whole team of busts (I mean Torpedo) all of a sudden has become one of the top teams. That's a lot of new players (have you heard about Radulov?) plus old players who've rejuvenated their careers.

The drop of skill in the KHL is rather exaggerated.

 

[BB88]

Insane? The league has lost 17 out of 50 top scores, and got quite a few new interesting players. Plus the whole team of busts (I mean Torpedo) all of a sudden has become one of the top teams. That's a lot of new players (have you heard about Radulov?) plus old players who've rejuvenated their careers.

The drop of skill in the KHL is rather exaggerated.

Yes.

They dropped massive amount of depth.
It’s impossible for Russia to replace that competition

 

[OskarOskarius]

Insane? The league has lost 17 out of 50 top scores, and got quite a few new interesting players. Plus the whole team of busts (I mean Torpedo) all of a sudden has become one of the top teams. That's a lot of new players (have you heard about Radulov?) plus old players who've rejuvenated their careers.

The drop of skill in the KHL is rather exaggerated.

Rank 1-50: 19 players lost
Rank 51-100: 15 players lost

So they lost 38 % of top 50 and 30 % 51-100.
If you look at D they lost 7/10 top dmen (measured in points).

It’s not a very good league anymore.

 

[Caser]

Yes.

They dropped massive amount of depth.
It’s impossible for Russia to replace that competition

Rank 1-50: 19 players lost
Rank 51-100: 15 players lost

So they lost 38 % of top 50 and 30 % 51-100.
If you look at D they lost 7/10 top dmen (measured in points).

It’s not a very good league anymore.

While I don't want to argue about league comparisons and the quality of replacement of the players left, the question was about comparing it to the RSL of Ovechkin's years there and I don't think anyone can say the competition isn't stronger now comparing to those times.

 

[Kshahdoo]

Rank 1-50: 19 players lost
Rank 51-100: 15 players lost

So they lost 38 % of top 50 and 30 % 51-100.
If you look at D they lost 7/10 top dmen (measured in points).

It’s not a very good league anymore.

The league got back quite a few good players. Radulov, Tkachev, Jaskin are easily better than any players that left save Kuzmenko. Golyshev got back. There are new quality NA players like Khmelevsky, Duszak, Leslie, Camara and more. Some young guys have made big progress (Nikishin), some veteran players and former bust prospects all of a sudden have career years (the whole Torpedo team) so no, I don't agree with all those whines about significant drop of the KHL's skill level. Of course the league has lost some depth but the loss isn't as critical as some people think.

 

[OskarOskarius]

The league got back quite a few good players. Radulov, Tkachev, Jaskin are easily better than any players that left save Kuzmenko. Golyshev got back. There are new quality NA players like Khmelevsky, Duszak, Leslie, Camara and more. Some young guys have made big progress (Nikishin), some veteran players and former bust prospects all of a sudden have career years (the whole Torpedo team) so no, I don't agree with all those whines about significant drop of the KHL's skill level. Of course the league has lost some depth but the loss isn't as critical as some people think.

They are having career seasons because the league lost almost half its top talent and isb’t very good anymore.

 

[Kshahdoo]

They are having career seasons because the league lost almost half its top talent and isb’t very good anymore.

Nah, they have career years because of Larionov...

Some teams haven't lost any good players or even become stronger on paper but they have the same or less points than they had last season. Look at Avangard, Magnitogorsk, Ak Bars, CSKA...

 

[Daximus]

They are having career seasons because the league lost almost half its top talent and isb’t very good anymore.

Yeah when former busts and veteran guys are having career years all of the sudden when there is a big exodus of top producers. It likely has more to do with those top producers leaving and watering down the league than it does that all the sudden all of those guys just got markedly better over the course of a summer.

 

[Caser]

Yeah when former busts and veteran guys are having career years all of the sudden when there is a big exodus of top producers. It likely has more to do with those top producers leaving and watering down the league than it does that all the sudden all of those guys just got markedly better over the course of a summer.

Tell me you're not watching the KHL without telling me you're not watching the KHL. I might surprise you, but it always consisted of a lot of "former busts" by the NHL standards. As for the veteran guys having career years, you mean guys like Nikishin or Kovalenko?

 

[Daximus]

Tell me you're not watching the KHL without telling me you're not watching the KHL. I might surprise you, but it always consisted of a lot of "former busts" by the NHL standards. As for the veteran guys having career years, you mean guys like Nikishin or Kovalenko?

I watched a couple of Michkov games with Sochi just to see how the kid is doing. But other than that yeah I can only go based on what I see. But it stands to reason better talent leaves = lesser talent rises. Pretty apples to apples I think.

 

[SoundAndFury]

I don't agree with all those whines about significant drop of the KHL's skill level. Of course the league has lost some depth but the loss isn't as critical as some people think.

And yet your first argument is how old man Radulov, who is slowly sinking Ak Bars' season, somehow raises the quality...

Of course, there are bright spots here and there and players like Nikishin were always going to emerge, it's not like Russians stopped being able to play hockey or anything. But the league's top-end talent dropped off massively, it is what it is, and pointing fingers at the few success stories doesn't really change it.

To paraphrase what ozo said on the KHL board in the summer, if this isn't "critical", nothing is. It's just a matter of the words "significant" or "critical" meaning different things to different people.

 

[Caser]

I watched a couple of Michkov games with Sochi just to see how the kid is doing. But other than that yeah I can only go based on what I see. But it stands to reason better talent leaves = lesser talent rises. Pretty apples to apples I think.

Yes, that is something I can agree with, just your arguments seemed very strange to me.

 

[Czechboy]

The KHL is weaker argument is one I didn't conisder. I noticed Jaskin was Top 5 again the other day.

On one hand.. they lost a lot of Finns/Swedes/Czechs and a few more.

On the other hand.. they lost 2 full teams so maybe the talent level is not as watered down due to their being 60 less spots available?

Hard to say.. like many others, I fully admit I'm not following the KHL very close at all this season since there are only a few Czechs this time.

 

[Caser]

The KHL is weaker argument is one I didn't conisder. I noticed Jaskin was Top 5 again the other day.

On one hand.. they lost a lot of Finns/Swedes/Czechs and a few more.

On the other hand.. they lost 2 full teams so maybe the talent level is not as watered down due to their being 60 less spots available?

Hard to say.. like many others, I fully admit I'm not following the KHL very close at all this season since there are only a few Czechs this time.

KHL is indeed weaker, but that doesn't mean that scoring there has become easier and I think that is what matters for the Michkov discussion.

 

[NatusVincere]

As has already been said here, the Russian talent pool is the basis of the league. Certainly not the 10% fewer foreigners now playing elsewhere. Also, even after the loss of talent, which has spread all over Europe, the KHL is still clearly stronger than the SHL. How absurd one wants to relativize Michkov's production... No more OT plz.

 

[Czechboy]

KHL is indeed weaker, but that doesn't mean that scoring there has become easier and I think that is what matters for the Michkov discussion.

Thanks I really wasn't sure. It didn't even occur that it'd be weaker till reading around here. I was thinking maybe 2 less teams offset the loss of non Russia talent along with a higher percentage of North Americans.

 

[SoundAndFury]

the KHL is still clearly stronger than the SHL.

That is, at this point, very heavily debatable if you look at the SHL rosters. If you wanted to say "top KHL teams are stronger than top SHL teams" - sure. But that's not the same thing you are saying.

 

[biscuits and guitar]

KHL is indeed weaker, but that doesn't mean that scoring there has become easier and I think that is what matters for the Michkov discussion.

Majority of foreigners who left KHL were forwards and offensively-minded defensemen, which resulted in the drop of the offensive talent leaguewise. On the other hand defense and goaltending staff stays on pretty the same level, cuz it's mostly Russian. What we get is less offensive talent facing the same defensive talent. What I wanna say is leaguewise scoring got even a lil harder)

 

[OskarOskarius]

Majority of foreigners who left KHL were forwards and offensively-minded defensemen, which resulted in the drop of the offensive talent leaguewise. On the other hand defense and goaltending staff stays on pretty the same level, cuz it's mostly Russian. What we get is less offensive talent facing the same defensive talent. What I wanna say is leaguewise scoring got even a lil harder)

They lost like 70 % of top goalies.

 

[SoundAndFury]

On the other hand defense and goaltending staff stays on pretty the same level, cuz it's mostly Russian. What we get is less offensive talent facing the same defensive talent. What I wanna say is leaguewise scoring got even a lil harder)

I will borrow Caser's "Tell me you're not watching the KHL without telling me you're not watching the KHL". There were 18 import goalies in the KHL last year. 5 of them in the top-10 Sv% (discounting the goalies with less that 15 games). Whatever this take is, it's not accurate at all. If you look at the Sv% leaders in the KHL this year, it's a bunch of nobodies even from the KHL fans' perspective.

And in general, throughout the history of the KHL, one of the import slots going to the goalie was pretty much the norm, that's how Koshechkin got his 2 million per year contract basically for being Russian. It's probably the area current situation impacted the most.

 

[Caser]

I will borrow Caser's "Tell me you're not watching the KHL without telling me you're not watching the KHL". There were 18 import goalies in the KHL last year. 5 of them in the top-10 Sv% (discounting the goalies with less that 15 games). Whatever this take is, it's not accurate at all. If you look at the Sv% leaders in the KHL this year, it's a bunch of nobodies even from the KHL fans' perspective.

And in general, throughout the history of the KHL, one of the import slots going to the goalie was pretty much the norm, that's how Koshechkin got his 2 million per year contract basically for being Russian. It's probably the area current situation impacted the most.

On the other hand if comparing let's say 20th goalie's SVS% it will be .921 this year Vs. .917 last season, so while in terms of the names goalie pool really suffered, in terms of the quality I think those nonames are performing really well. And the GAA of the 20th goalie at that parameter has decreased from 2.33 to 2.23, so that's about the scoring.

 

[SoundAndFury]

On the other hand if comparing let's say 20th goalie's SVS% it will be .921 this year Vs. .917 last season, so while in terms of the names goalie pool really suffered, in terms of the quality I think those nonames are performing really well. And the GAA of the 20th goalie at that parameter has decreased from 2.33 to 2.23, so that's about the scoring.

Yeah, which once again just leads down the rabbit hole of why is that so and makes any oversimplified, boiled-down argument like that seem flimsy.

All we know a lot of good players left, that's just a hard fact. Pointing fingers at a select few examples trying to "prove" the point is rather silly (from either side). Maybe that's the reason why Admiral or Torpedo are successful, maybe it isn't. Maybe that's the reason guys nobody has ever heard before and reclamation projects are now the best goalies in the league, maybe it isn't. The point is, some of it is the trickle-down effect due to the changes in the league because there can't NOT be one. But the fabric here is much more complex than "guy x left but guy y arrived, therefore.." statements.