RW Matvei Michkov (2023, 7th, PHI) Part 4

[Kshahdoo]

And empty netter... 2+1 again or 4+2 after 2 games. Given his teams scored 7 goals in 2 games it's obvious who was the MVP...

 

[Mawwerg]

And empty netter... 2+1 again or 4+2 after 2 games. Given his teams scored 7 goals in 2 games it's obvious who was the MVP...

To be frank Kapitan goalie Pleshkov was impressive as well.

 

[Kshahdoo]

To be frank Kapitan goalie Pleshkov was impressive as well.

Yeah, he was. Still 6 points and 4 goals in 2 games is 6 points and 4 goals in 2 games...

 

[NatusVincere]

And empty netter... 2+1 again or 4+2 after 2 games. Given his teams scored 7 goals in 2 games it's obvious who was the MVP...

Kapitan vs Vityaz without Michkov: 1:1 (1:0 / 2:3)
Kapitan vs Vityaz with Michkov: 2:0 (3:1 / 4:1)

Let's see how far he can take them.

 

[Garl]

Tarasenko's team finished 20th out of 24 teams in his draft year. That's definitely not an "average team". Not to mention, his dad was the coach so it's not exactly a surprise he made that team.

Similar story for other top prospects.
Kuznetsov: Traktor finished 18th out of 24 teams
Panarin: Vityaz finished 23rd out of 24 teams
Kaprizov: Novokuznetsk finished 27th out of 28 teams

Nichushkin had 15 points in 43 games (RS + playoffs), including 6 points in 18 games in the RS, and 9 in 25 in PO. How is that more impressive overall than Michkov's season? It's not his fault his team sucks ass and never even sniffed being 2nd last in the league.

Kravtsov had 18 points in 51 games (RS + playoffs). His playoff performance was impressive (11 points in 16 games) but that ppg (in playoffs only, ignoring his much weaker RS) is about the same as Michkov who is playing on a dogshit team and did it over a larger sample size. Not to mention, Michkov has been impressive at every level, whereas Kravtsov's claim to fame is pretty much just that one playoff. He was never as impressive before or after that. Michkov actually had a higher ppg this year than Kravtsov had in any of his first 4 seasons.

I agree that playing on a bad team helps young players since they get more ice time, but Michkov's team is so historically awful that I think it actually works against him. His teammates are bad even by bad KHL team standards. He was 4th in team scoring despite playing half of the number of games of anyone ahead of him. His ppg was the highest by far, and he only played 16 minutes a game.

The only guy (since Ovechkin/Malkin) you listed who actually compares favourably to Michkov in their draft season is Cherepanov, and unfortunately we'll never know how good he could have been.

SKA has 2 rosters worth of players and Russian coaches are dinosaurs that bury young players unless they have no other options. It has little to do with his performance.

To look at it another way, Michkov played with Khusnutdinov last year both on the junior team and on SKA, and he and more points in both cases. Khusnutdinov stayed on SKA this year and got the same amount of ice time per game as Michkov on Sochi (15:47 vs 15:51 toi), yet Michkov still has a higher ppg this year despite having much worse teammates. Besides icetime, in what way does playing on a shit team help Michkov?

Based on what you are saying about "making" SKA, Khusnutdinov became way better than Michkov this year, despite still having comparable ppg with the same ice time, and with Khusnutdinov having way, way, better teammates.

Kunlun may be 2nd last, but they were almost closer to a playoff spot (19 points out) than they were to HC Sochi (17 points ahead). Even garbage teams are decent competition when you play on probably the worst team in league history.

1. Kaprizov went in 5th round, Panarin undrafted. Btw, if they had same results for a top team, would have went in the 1st round, at least Kaprizov, Panarin was a 140 lbs guy in 2009, at that time that was considered to be a no-no.
2.Nichushkin had a very impressive draft season, was impactful in playoffs, scored a lot of goals. Same with Kravtsov. I was not very high on both btw. PPG in playoffs is way more impressive than scoring some pts for a bottom team.
3.Tarasenko had a better season easily. He was 90kg and his father was a coach though, it is also truth. Michkov is a better prospect.
4.Rotenberg and Bochner are dinosaurs? SKA is a young team
5.Yes, Khusnutdinov is better than Michkov at the moment obviously. Michkov is a better prospect and almost 3 years younger. Btw, last year, they didn't play in juniors together with Michkov and Khusnutdinov had more points than Michkov for SKA.

Kunlun is a decent competiton. But it was the last game of the season, and I guess they didn't really play in a very strict system, season was done, game was meaningless, you can have fun.

 

[Caser]

Kapitan vs Vityaz without Michkov: 1:1 (1:0 / 2:3)
Kapitan vs Vityaz with Michkov: 2:0 (3:1 / 4:1)

Let's see how far he can take them.

Will play Vs. SKA-1946 in the first round.

 

[NatusVincere]

Will play Vs. SKA-1946 in the first round.

Sure? Not Loko? However, it won't be easy either way. SKA will certainly add at least Buchelnikov and Ivanov as soon as NEVA is out.

 

[NatusVincere]

1. Kaprizov went in 5th round, Panarin undrafted. Btw, if they had same results for a top team, would have went in the 1st round, at least Kaprizov, Panarin was a 140 lbs guy in 2009, at that time that was considered to be a no-no.
2.Nichushkin had a very impressive draft season, was impactful in playoffs, scored a lot of goals. Same with Kravtsov. I was not very high on both btw. PPG in playoffs is way more impressive than scoring some pts for a bottom team.
3.Tarasenko had a better season easily. He was 90kg and his father was a coach though, it is also truth. Michkov is a better prospect.
4.Rotenberg and Bochner are dinosaurs? SKA is a young team
5.Yes, Khusnutdinov is better than Michkov at the moment obviously. Michkov is a better prospect and almost 3 years younger. Btw, last year, they didn't play in juniors together with Michkov and Khusnutdinov had more points than Michkov for SKA.

Kunlun is a decent competiton. But it was the last game of the season, and I guess they didn't really play in a very strict system, season was done, game was meaningless, you can have fun.

1. Nothing to do with the team they played, more with people like you dont know a shit about the KHL and russian prospects.
2. Kravtsov and Nuke were two big dudes with one single move.
3. Tarasenko hadn't a better season.
4. SKA is a "young" team beacuse SKA is buying all the blue chip talent.
5. Khus isn't better than Michkov at the moment. He is faster, thats all about. Both played side on side for the U20 last year, it wasnt close who the better player was.

 

[Caser]

Sure? Not Loko? However, it won't be easy either way. SKA will certainly add at least Buchelnikov and Ivanov as soon as NEVA is out.

AKM won their playins, so they are facing Loko, therefore SKA Vs. Michkov it is.

 

[MonkeyBusiness]

Another great game from him. Kapitan look poised to go far in the playoffs. Anyone catch that 2 on 1 when Monakhov had the puck and didn't pass it to Michkov? Michkov wasn't happy at all.

 

[Garl]

1. Nothing to do with the team they played, more with people like you dont know a shit about the KHL and russian prospects.
2. Kravtsov and Nuke were two big dudes with one single move.
3. Tarasenko hadn't a better season.
4. SKA is a "young" team beacuse SKA is buying all the blue chip talent.
5. Khus isn't better than Michkov at the moment. He is faster, thats all about. Both played side on side for the U20 last year, it wasnt close who the better player was.

1. This "you don't know shit" theory is unfalsifiable. Every time there is a top russian player who went undrafted or was drafted low theory is proven, every time russian top pick busts, it is also proven. Disproving it is impossible.

I however was around here in 2009 and don't remember any hype from russian posters about Panarin. Zero. Talk was about Burmistrov, Tarasenko, Kuznetsov. But a guy like S.Barbashev had more hype than Panarin. This "everyone in Russia knew he is great, it is just stupid amerikwans who don't know shit" is pure bs.
Similar story with Kaprizov, even though his results were probably good enough for 2nd-3rd round.
Funny that I actually was high in both Panarin and Kaprizov, when they played for SKA/Salavat I was sure that they would become at least good TOP 6 players in NHL
2.I never liked Kravtsov as a player, but he had great playoff run in 2017.
3. Tarasenko had a bug role on a decent team, Michkov on a farm of SKA
4. Yes, but it is irrelevant, Rotenberg like him or not puts young players in the lineup
5.Of course Khusnutdinov is better at the moment. He is more mature, that's why he is with SKA and is doing good, while Michkov is with Sochi. The fact that Michkov can score more against juniors is not the same as being better.

 

[Cahokia]

1. Kaprizov went in 5th round, Panarin undrafted. Btw, if they had same results for a top team, would have went in the 1st round, at least Kaprizov, Panarin was a 140 lbs guy in 2009, at that time that was considered to be a no-no.
2.Nichushkin had a very impressive draft season, was impactful in playoffs, scored a lot of goals. Same with Kravtsov. I was not very high on both btw. PPG in playoffs is way more impressive than scoring some pts for a bottom team.
3.Tarasenko had a better season easily. He was 90kg and his father was a coach though, it is also truth. Michkov is a better prospect.
4.Rotenberg and Bochner are dinosaurs? SKA is a young team
5.Yes, Khusnutdinov is better than Michkov at the moment obviously. Michkov is a better prospect and almost 3 years younger. Btw, last year, they didn't play in juniors together with Michkov and Khusnutdinov had more points than Michkov for SKA.

Kunlun is a decent competiton. But it was the last game of the season, and I guess they didn't really play in a very strict system, season was done, game was meaningless, you can have fun.

1. It seems we might not be arguing exactly the same things. I am not really concerned with draft position (I'm not claiming Mickov goes #2), I'm comparing him to other Russian prospects and claiming he is at or near the top.

In Kaprizov's draft season he had 8 points in 31 games in his draft season playing on a team that was terrible but still decently better than Michkov's Sochi. He still had a decent amount of hype, at least in Russia. The fact he was drafted in the 5th round is more a failure of scouting than him not being very good at the time. I mean, Guryanov, Dergachyov, Vorobyov, and Zhukenov (LOL) were drafted ahead of him and those last three guys couldn't even manage ppg in the MHL. So Kaprizov holding his own in a men's league was viewed as less impressive than guys putting okay numbers in a junior league. The Wild more or less admitted they 'discovered' him by accident when a scout's flight got cancelled. That's more of an indictment of NHL scouting than it is of Kaprizov as a prospect.

I think you are right about Panarin though. He did play on the 2011 WJC team so it wasn't like he was a complete unknown, but I don't think he was that highly hyped. He should have been drafted but I don't think it was super obvious at the time that he would become as good as he did.

2. Nichushkin had 6g + 3a in 25 games, which is 0.36ppg or 106th in playoff ppg. Michkov had 9g + 11a in 30 games, which is 0.67 ppg or 45th in league ppg. Michkov had higher gpg too with 0.3gpg vs 0.24gpg. I think you can give credit to playoff points being a bit more valuable than regular season but Michkov basically scored at double the rate. I also still hold that Michkov's team is so awful that his points there are more impressive, not less.

I do not value playoff scoring that much when players like Kravtsov overperformed in that one 16 game sample size compared the rest of his body of work. Sure, he was a good prospect, but his stats were never as good as Michkov's. Scoring a bunch in a 15 game sample size is the same to me as Michkov scoring 5 points vs Kunlun. It doesn't mean much if not accompanied by a larger body of work. Michkov has unprecedented production in MHL, VHL, and now KHL, as well as in international tournaments. That's not true for Kravtsov or Nichushkin, so I think comparing only the best parts of their junior career to Michkov is unfair.

3. How did Tarasenko have a better season? Tarasenko had 24p in 42g, which is 0.57ppg. Michkov had 20p in 30g which is 0.67ppg. Both had awful teams, but Michkov's was historically awful. So Tarasenko had the benefits of playing on a bad team while still having better linemates than Michkov.

90kg might have made him appealing to NHL scouts at the time but it doesn't make him a better player or prospect. I would say that Michkov's stats with such a small frame actually make him more impressive as a prospect, since if he grows and fills out more he will be much easier time physically than he currently does.

4. I'm referring to the mentality of burying young (as in U20 players) because while they may be much more talented than the alternatives, there's a small chance of the young player making a mistake so they tend to get buried on top teams. Don't believe me? You can find pretty much any drafted Russian prospect's thread (at least the prospects on decent teams) on this forum is full of drafting team's fans complaining about the prospect playing less than 5 minutes a game.

However, in fairness to SKA, they are loaded and they had 2 wingers in the top 10 of league scoring and 4 in the top 30 of league scoring. So if Michkov did stay he would have to play 3rd line at best anyway, which means probably no pp time and 10 minutes of ice time per game. Through that lens I don't think Michkov getting sent to Sochi is much of an indictment.

5. Sorry, when I said "played together in junior" I meant they played in the cancelled WJC and pretournament games together and looked comparable in that small sample size.
Last year Michkov had 5 points in 13 games for SKA for 0.38ppg. Khusnutdinov had 12 points in 32 games for 0.38ppg. So they had the same ppg last year playing for SKA. This year Michkov has a higher ppg despite playing the same amount of time and playing with much worse players.

I'm not even trying to argue Michkov > Khusnutdinov right now as players but I'm merely showing that their level of play was at least comparable last year as reflected by the stats and this year they show the same trend as last year. You would expect if something was different this year his stats would be higher or lower relative to Khusnutdinov's stats. I tried to control for variables in this comparison too. Icetime? They play the same amount. Linemates? Khusnutdinov's are way better so this helps his point production. What exactly about playing on SKA makes Khusnutdinov's production so much better? and I mean much better, not a little better.

I actually mostly agree that the 5-point game vs Kunlun is not that important in the grand scheme of things but selectively removing it would be like removing his games for SKA because he averaged 3min/game. As I said before Michkov has outperformed other Russian prospects at every level he's played so I give him the benefit of the doubt in cases like this. Even so, embarassing what is still a better team is at least worth something.

 

[Zine]

1. This "you don't know shit" theory is unfalsifiable. Every time there is a top russian player who went undrafted or was drafted low theory is proven, every time russian top pick busts, it is also proven. Disproving it is impossible.

I however was around here in 2009 and don't remember any hype from russian posters about Panarin. Zero. Talk was about Burmistrov, Tarasenko, Kuznetsov. But a guy like S.Barbashev had more hype than Panarin. This "everyone in Russia knew he is great, it is just stupid amerikwans who don't know shit" is pure bs.
Similar story with Kaprizov, even though his results were probably good enough for 2nd-3rd round.
Funny that I actually was high in both Panarin and Kaprizov, when they played for SKA/Salavat I was sure that they would become at least good TOP 6 players in NHL
2.I never liked Kravtsov as a player, but he had great playoff run in 2017.
3. Tarasenko had a bug role on a decent team, Michkov on a farm of SKA
4. Yes, but it is irrelevant, Rotenberg like him or not puts young players in the lineup
5.Of course Khusnutdinov is better at the moment. He is more mature, that's why he is with SKA and is doing good, while Michkov is with Sochi. The fact that Michkov can score more against juniors is not the same as being better.

This is disingenuous. Roster role depth is not linear.
Khusnutdinov is on SKA over Michkov because he can play C and is a better 2-way player. His skill-set fills a void in SKA's lineup that Michkov's doesn't, especially with Prokhorkin out.
This makes Khusnutdinov more valuable to SKA, but it doesn't mean he's an innately better player.
Let me guess.......you think Bardakov is better than Michkov too?

If Khusnutdinov was on Sochi I can't fathom him doing what Michkov did. He wouldnt have the luxury of Gusev and Yaskin on his flanks.

 

[Kshahdoo]

 

[Steve Kournianos]

I dont care if he does go ahead of Carlsson or not. The thing I am arguing against is fake news that Michkov had some super impressive historical season.
If he had same results for SKA, no question, there would be an argument for him as a 1st overall over Bedard, but he didnt, he was loaned to a farm team

The problem with your argument is that Michkov was already part of the SKA organization and put up record-setting numbers or paces in his draft-2, draft-1, and draft year with Neva. Look at Khusnutdinov. He is having a great d+3 season with SKA in the KHL and has nothing left to prove, but his MHL and VHL numbers are a galaxy behind Michkov’s.

Also, Michkov was the best player at the 2021 U18 WC. So the idea that he only smoke weak competition or can’t hang with the big boys is waaaaay off base. Besides, he was essentially the MVP of last year’s Kharlamov Cup on a loaded SKA-1946 with Svechkov, Buchelnikov, Chibrikov, Groshev, and even Khusnutdinov. That’s a 1st, 3 2nds and a 3rd at the NHL draft, and all forwards.

When was the last time in the MHL a draft-1 led his team in playoff goals on that kind of roster?

Hint: Don’t bother looking it up. It’s unprecedented.

 

[ViD]

The problem with your argument is that Michkov was already part of the SKA organization and put up record-setting numbers or paces in his draft-2, draft-1, and draft year with Neva. Look at Khusnutdinov. He is having a great d+3 season with SKA in the KHL and has nothing left to prove, but his MHL and VHL numbers are a galaxy behind Michkov’s.

Also, Michkov was the best player at the 2021 U18 WC. So the idea that he only smoke weak competition or can’t hang with the big boys is waaaaay off base. Besides, he was essentially the MVP of last year’s Kharlamov Cup on a loaded SKA-1946 with Svechkov, Buchelnikov, Chibrikov, Groshev, and even Khusnutdinov. That’s a 1st, 3 2nds and a 3rd at the NHL draft, and all forwards.

When was the last time in the MHL a draft-1 led his team in playoff goals on that kind of roster?

Hint: Don’t bother looking it up. It’s unprecedented.

All fair points

 

[Garl]

The problem with your argument is that Michkov was already part of the SKA organization and put up record-setting numbers or paces in his draft-2, draft-1, and draft year with Neva. Look at Khusnutdinov. He is having a great d+3 season with SKA in the KHL and has nothing left to prove, but his MHL and VHL numbers are a galaxy behind Michkov’s.

Also, Michkov was the best player at the 2021 U18 WC. So the idea that he only smoke weak competition or can’t hang with the big boys is waaaaay off base. Besides, he was essentially the MVP of last year’s Kharlamov Cup on a loaded SKA-1946 with Svechkov, Buchelnikov, Chibrikov, Groshev, and even Khusnutdinov. That’s a 1st, 3 2nds and a 3rd at the NHL draft, and all forwards.

When was the last time in the MHL a draft-1 led his team in playoff goals on that kind of roster?

Hint: Don’t bother looking it up. It’s unprecedented.

My idea is not that he smoked weaker competition, but that he couldn't get a job for a good team and was loaned to it's farm. This is just a fact. He is a prodigy, of course he has done a lot of great things in his career. He also failed to make a serious KHL team in his draft year and instead, played for a farm, where there is way less competition for a job, way less pressure, way less structure etc.
Look at guys like Nikita Gusev or Linus Omark. They are obviously more talented and skilled than many NHLers. Who is more talented and skilled, Gusev or let's say Barabanov? Gusev obviously. Omark or Hornqvist? Omark. If you for example would put Gusev and Barabanov in lets say swiss league, Gusev would outscore Barabanov, and Omark would outscore Hornqvist. But, in NHL Hornqvist is a very good player, Omark got kicked out after 1 season, Barabanov is a servicable player, Gusev couldn't make it.

Michkov is a prodigy, and it was expected from him, to be an impact player in KHL in his draft year. He wasn't. This is not a sentence, doesn't mean he is a bust. But it is a fact.

 

[Kcoyote3]

Michkov is a prodigy, and it was expected from him, to be an impact player in KHL in his draft year. He wasn't. This is not a sentence, doesn't mean he is a bust. But it is a fact.

It's a fact if you distort the meaning of the sentence entirely and ignore tons of evidence to the contrary.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

My idea is not that he smoked weaker competition, but that he couldn't get a job for a good team and was loaned to it's farm. This is just a fact. He is a prodigy, of course he has done a lot of great things in his career. He also failed to make a serious KHL team in his draft year and instead, played for a farm, where there is way less competition for a job, way less pressure, way less structure etc.
Look at guys like Nikita Gusev or Linus Omark. They are obviously more talented and skilled than many NHLers. Who is more talented and skilled, Gusev or let's say Barabanov? Gusev obviously. Omark or Hornqvist? Omark. If you for example would put Gusev and Barabanov in lets say swiss league, Gusev would outscore Barabanov, and Omark would outscore Hornqvist. But, in NHL Hornqvist is a very good player, Omark got kicked out after 1 season, Barabanov is a servicable player, Gusev couldn't make it.

Michkov is a prodigy, and it was expected from him, to be an impact player in KHL in his draft year. He wasn't. This is not a sentence, doesn't mean he is a bust. But it is a fact.

Michkov was better for SKA in his draft minus-1 than any draft-1 in their recent history. Are we forgetting his serious knee injury in the preseason?

He wasn’t cut from SKA because of his play. He was loaned because SKA views him as a long-term asset and want him happy. He missed over a month, and had 11 combined shifts in three games, and SKA was by that point already on a record-setting pace with set lines. It’s literally the identical situation with Nemec and New Jersey, or Knies with Toronto. A coach isn’t messing around with his lines for a kid who will be his top liner in 1-2 years.

The strategy behind the loan was putting him in a top-line role in the KHL. Not a punishment. In fact, it’s a reward and speaks to how much SKA values him. I’d say mission accomplished.

But SKA has decided that the development of a player at the KHL level is now more important. Sochi is in last place in the Western Conference, there is not the strongest team. Michkov is quite capable of becoming the leader of this team. At 18, playing on the front line, trying your hand at the level of the strongest rivals is worth a lot. I think a few games with good playing time will be enough for him to adapt to the KHL. I can’t wait to see him in action with Sochi. And if everything works out and Matvey picks up physics, then the road back to St. Petersburg will be open to him, – quotes the words of Yudin “Championship”.

SKA went to meet Michkov, loaning him to Sochi - Yudin - Athletistic

Former SKA hockey player Alexandre Youdin believes that the management of the St. Petersburg team went to meet striker Matvey Michkov, loaning the hockey player to Sochi. Earlier, Sochi announced the striker's loan from SKA. Saint Petersburg club head coach Roman Rotenberg in a commentary to...

athletistic.com

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Sorry, I just don’t get the whole “He has to perform on a record KHL pace with only one team to prove his greatness”.

Rangers traded Doug Weight because he was blocked. Wings traded Adam Oates because he was blocked. Brett Hull was traded because he was blocked.

 

[ItWasJustified]

My idea is not that he smoked weaker competition

What? Playing for a far worse team in the same league is playing weaker competition? He certainly played with worse teammates than he would've done with SKA.

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

I hope the Hawks win the lottery, draft Bedard, Michkov falls for some stupid reason and they trade up and get him too.

In five years, the Hawks would be unfair

 

[bsu]

I hope the Hawks win the lottery, draft Bedard, Michkov falls for some stupid reason and they trade up and get him too.

In five years, the Hawks would be unfair

Well I'm sure you also hope you will win the real lottery and get free lap dances whenever you want.... because the actual chances of both scenarios is zero.

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

Well I'm sure you also hope you will win the real lottery and get free lap dances whenever you want.... because the actual chances of both scenarios is zero.

Stranger things have happened.

The Hawks currently are a smidge above beer league right now and dare I say the Hawks have enough draft and prospect capital to make any move they would want to make.

 

[Realgud]

My idea is not that he smoked weaker competition, but that he couldn't get a job for a good team and was loaned to it's farm. This is just a fact. He is a prodigy, of course he has done a lot of great things in his career. He also failed to make a serious KHL team in his draft year and instead, played for a farm, where there is way less competition for a job, way less pressure, way less structure etc.
Look at guys like Nikita Gusev or Linus Omark. They are obviously more talented and skilled than many NHLers. Who is more talented and skilled, Gusev or let's say Barabanov? Gusev obviously. Omark or Hornqvist? Omark. If you for example would put Gusev and Barabanov in lets say swiss league, Gusev would outscore Barabanov, and Omark would outscore Hornqvist. But, in NHL Hornqvist is a very good player, Omark got kicked out after 1 season, Barabanov is a servicable player, Gusev couldn't make it.

Michkov is a prodigy, and it was expected from him, to be an impact player in KHL in his draft year. He wasn't. This is not a sentence, doesn't mean he is a bust. But it is a fact.

Michkov had 1G+1A when he played against SKA though. And I wouldn't say that Sochi lacks structure. It lacks talent. If anything, Michkov playing for Sochi this season really showed how much he can adapt to a system and play as a team, something some people weren't sure he could do. He has looked incredible in the KHL this season, and not only as a goalscorer, but as an overall hockey player, at least in my opinion. I'm sure he would have had a great season had he played in the top-6 for SKA and maybe with even better stats. With Sochi it was a lot of defensive zone time and also his linemates being unable to keep offensive possession and often just turning the puck over.