RW Jordan Dumais - Halifax Mooseheads, QMJHL (2022, 96th, CBJ)

[HighLifeManIsHigh]

I'm sorry, but this is not a good argument.

A few things.

1. How exactly is it in the NHL's best interests? It might make the CHL slightly better each season, but we can't act like a few players makes the quality of the league.

The NHL's best interests are to see hockey be as big as possible and raise the level of the sport compared to previous generations of the league. That doesn't require the CHL to be a premier league. Not to say this would be better or worse, but let's say the effect of this policy caused most of the best Canadian players to play NCAA hockey, why would that be bad for hockey?

2. The NHL doesn't prop up the USHL with the same rule, let alone leagues like MHL and J20. Why does the CHL get special treatment?

3. Why are we concerned about making the CHL a little stronger when the point of the NHL is to advocate for future NHL players? Sorry for the 3LW on Chicoutimi, but it's in the interest of hockey to see Dumais play at his appropriate level than some dude that'll be a cook or cleaner in 3 years to get the experience of facing off against a future NHL'er. The interests of the players this hurts should be the players that we are looking out for disproportionately with NHL policies towards junior hockey leagues.

Because the CHL produces more NHLers than all of those leagues combined? You can’t be this obtuse. The NHL wants to keep the CHL happy because it’s the league’s major pipeline for talent.

Also, if you’re drafted out of the USHL, MHL or J20, you can play in the AHL as an 18 year old. The 20 year old rule only applies to players drafted out of the CHL. So what special treatment are you talking about exactly? Unless I’m missing something about your statement.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Because the CHL produces more NHLers than all of those leagues combined? You can’t be this obtuse. The NHL wants to keep the CHL happy because it’s the league’s major pipeline for talent.

Also, if you’re drafted out of the USHL, MHL or J20, you can play in the AHL as an 18 year old. The 20 year old rule only applies to players drafted out of the CHL. So what special treatment are you talking about exactly? Unless I’m missing something about your statement.

I’m pretty sure that’s not true. Do you have some numbers to back that up?

The special treatment is that the CHL has their own rule where they get to keep players back from the AHL beyond them being drafted. Being the only one that gets that exemption is special treatment.

 

[ProspectsFanatic]

1st game back, 3G-2A

 

[Artorius Horus T]

what a disappointment to hear, that he was sent back to the Q
oh well... he'll probably score 150 - 180 points this season, in 50+ games.
that happens when you send elite top 6 NHL player to the juniors..

 

[WarriorofTime]

He’s getting hosed by the arcane transfer agreement. The nhl needs to scrap it. They don’t need to cave to the CHL. And the idea that the CHL needs it to stay “solvent” is a mistaken fallacy. A couple more guys that would be playing junior a playing in the major junior leagues would literally go unnoticed. In fact it already has, look at how many Ontario and Western kids play NCAA these days and thus a lesser player takes their spot.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

42-16 shots on goal, against Halifax... Dumais scores 3+2 (both assists primary)
Halifax wins 6-4...

Halifax is a two player team; Dumais and Rousseau.

 

[Tube Skates]

Still developing. Looks faster and stronger on the puck now. Nice game 1 back in the Q.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

I think he is gonna play with "some" anger this season, that fuels him the entire season,
He knows he should be playing pro hockey atm, not junior hockey.

 

[Reddawg]

He got his signing bonus and he'll be able to play in the WJC this year and dominate there as well. Just have to make the most of the situation.

 

[Peasy]

He’s getting hosed by the arcane transfer agreement. The nhl needs to scrap it. They don’t need to cave to the CHL. And the idea that the CHL needs it to stay “solvent” is a mistaken fallacy. A couple more guys that would be playing junior a playing in the major junior leagues would literally go unnoticed. In fact it already has, look at how many Ontario and Western kids play NCAA these days and thus a lesser player takes their spot.

Dreger also reported: “The general managers coming out of Tuesday’s meetings want to talk more about 19-year-olds playing in the American Hockey League and it feels like every March, when we’re healthy enough to be in a face-to-face environment, that the topic comes up. I know Kelly McCrimmon of the Vegas Golden Knights gave a very passionate account — as the former owner of the WHL’s Brandon Wheat Kings — to tell the general managers (there are 11 new guys in there) how devastating it would be to the CHL if they introduce 19-year-olds at the AHL level.”

But yeah Im sure you know best

 

[WarriorofTime]

But yeah Im sure you know best

Explain how it would be devastating. There are like 60 CHL teams. Losing a couple extra 19 year olds will do very much nothing. People aren’t gonna stop going to games no more than they would stop going to games if Macklin Celebrini opted for Boston University. Nobody goes to junior games because they’re the best players in the world.

It’s faulty logic. Like saying one and done would kill college basketball. It hasn’t and it won’t. People are supporting local teams and enjoying some good sports in the process. Very few 19 year olds would be in the AHL because it’s still burning a year of ELC. But for the few that would benefit, it would be good for them and should be prioritized ahead of the fact that the Brandon Wheat Kings may not win as much that season.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Explain how it would be devastating. There are like 60 CHL teams. Losing a couple extra 19 year olds will do very much nothing. People aren’t gonna stop going to games no more than they would stop going to games if Macklin Celebrini opted for Boston University. Nobody goes to junior games because they’re the best players in the world.

It’s faulty logic. Like saying one and done would kill college basketball. It hasn’t and it won’t. People are supporting local teams and enjoying some good sports in the process. Very few 19 year olds would be in the AHL because it’s still burning a year of ELC. But for the few that would benefit, it would be good for them and should be prioritized ahead of the fact that the Brandon Wheat Kings may not win as much that season.

If it was in the NHL's best interest to alter the deal it would have been altered a long time ago. It's not like this agreement is new. It's been a thing for decades and the NHL could have made the adjustment if they wanted too. They clearly don't. It is working for both sides. Maybe at some point the NHL decides differently or to modify it in some way. I do think it would be good to introduce some type of exceptional status to let players into the AHL at 19. In that hypothetical scenario I still doubt Dumais would raise to the level of being able to play in the AHL.

 

[WarriorofTime]

If it was in the NHL's best interest to alter the deal it would have been altered a long time ago. It's not like this agreement is new. It's been a thing for decades and the NHL could have made the adjustment if they wanted too. They clearly don't. It is working for both sides. Maybe at some point the NHL decides differently or to modify it in some way. I do think it would be good to introduce some type of exceptional status to let players into the AHL at 19. In that hypothetical scenario I still doubt Dumais would raise to the level of being able to play in the AHL.

Because they are content to save the year of ELC.

But “it’s always been this way” isn’t particularly compelling for “it should always be this way”.

In the case of Dumais, he’s getting hosed which is a shame. The last thing he needs is to put up 2 PPG against future USports or ECHL scrubs.

 

[wetcoast]

I’m pretty sure that’s not true. Do you have some numbers to back that up?

The special treatment is that the CHL has their own rule where they get to keep players back from the AHL beyond them being drafted. Being the only one that gets that exemption is special treatment.

The CHL has a longstanding agreement with the NHL, there is nothing preventing other leagues to negotiate their own agreement .

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Because they are content to save the year of ELC.

But “it’s always been this way” isn’t particularly compelling for “it should always be this way”.

In the case of Dumais, he’s getting hosed which is a shame. The last thing he needs is to put up 2 PPG against future USports or ECHL scrubs.

Right my point is that the NHL has had many chances to change the current deal if they wanted and if they wanted to change it what is the CHL going to do? In the end the deal is mutually beneficial for both NHL teams and the CHL. Not so great for individual players in some cases for sure.

 

[Peasy]

It honestly gets tiresome reading this argument in specific prospect threads every year.

Click on someone's thread to see what they've been up too and all it is is just CHL bashing and people going on about how dumb this agreement is.

If the AHL is somehow such a superior development league, how come someone like Byfield is still struggling to transition to the NHL? Do you really think him getting to play in the AHL right away instead of the OHL did wonders for his development?

 

[Reddawg]

If the AHL is somehow such a superior development league, how come someone like Byfield is still struggling to transition to the NHL? Do you really think him getting to play in the AHL right away instead of the OHL did wonders for his development?

This is a good point, but I don't think anyone is arguing that the AHL is a better developmental league than anywhere else for an 18-19yo player. They're arguing that Dumais should be getting paid decent money to play hockey. I don't disagree, but there are perfectly valid reasons why he and the other U20 players aren't AHL eligible, and it's bigger than the individuals when it comes to the overall good of the sport.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Because they are content to save the year of ELC.

But “it’s always been this way” isn’t particularly compelling for “it should always be this way”.

In the case of Dumais, he’s getting hosed which is a shame. The last thing he needs is to put up 2 PPG against future USports or ECHL scrubs.

Also, Don Fehr is a sleeper agent for the league and did nothing to advocate for the players. He certainly wasn’t going to bend over backwards to additionally help players not yet in the union.

Walsh should be making this a priority.

The CHL has a longstanding agreement with the NHL, there is nothing preventing other leagues to negotiate their own agreement .

Yes, but it’s also not in the NHL’s interest for any league to have that type of agreement.

 

[wetcoast]

Yes, but it’s also not in the NHL’s interest for any league to have that type of agreement.

It is what it is and almost always the player in question simply isn't ready.

 

[Goose of Reason]

It honestly gets tiresome reading this argument in specific prospect threads every year.

Click on someone's thread to see what they've been up too and all it is is just CHL bashing and people going on about how dumb this agreement is.

If the AHL is somehow such a superior development league, how come someone like Byfield is still struggling to transition to the NHL? Do you really think him getting to play in the AHL right away instead of the OHL did wonders for his development?

It's so bad that it's only the single biggest feeder league to the NHL. It ruins players left and right. The argument against the ruling should be a labour issue, in that adults playing hockey are losing the chance to make real wages instead of the small allowances they get in the CHL, not whining about how it's ruining players development.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

It's so bad that it's only the single biggest feeder league to the NHL. It ruins players left and right. The argument against the ruling should be a labour issue, in that adults playing hockey are losing the chance to make real wages instead of the small allowances they get in the CHL, not whining about how it's ruining players development.

This. If a player has what it takes to make the NHL, he's going to make it, regardless of where he plays his 19-20 yr old season. The development difference in CHL vs. AHL at that age is a negligible factor. Dumais playing 20+ minutes a night and being the prime generator and 2X ppg mega-star in junior even while focusing on refining his game has value too, vs. playing a marginal role for 12 minutes a night on a 3rd line the AHL. Dumais isn't missing out on anything developmentally by not being buried in the AHL.

But he IS missing out on $$$. And 18-year olds are adults, and that's where any legal challenge would be, just like Ken Linseman and the whole 20-year old draft issue.

 

[TLEH]

That should be the angle for the players 100%. AHL wages being denied because of some agreement that only benefits the CHL. Doesn’t benefit NHL clubs. Doesn’t benefit the player. Yeah, if the agreement goes away a few of the better players will play their 19 year old seasons in the AHL.

AHL is still a hard ass league and I don’t think the CHL loses all that much.

 

[Tube Skates]

After the first two games it’s easy to tell he’s not shying away from contact as much.

 

[LeProspector]

didn’t George say there was no way he isn’t in the NHL this year?

 

[HarrisonFord]

So disappointed the Leafs didn’t take this guy. Kid is going to be a point producing machine in the NHL