RW Jordan Dumais - Halifax Mooseheads, QMJHL (2022, 96th, CBJ)

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Not a fan of this rule. A bit unethical, you are clearly preventing someone from having a job and earning money on the basis that you technically own them...

Not to mention that you are hurting a player development, and potential future earnings.

That's like working for McDonald for 2 years, and have some sort of clause that prevent you from going to school and earn a degree.
 
Not a fan of this rule. A bit unethical, you are clearly preventing someone from having a job and earning money on the basis that you technically own them...

Not to mention that you are hurting a player development, and potential future earnings.

That's like working for McDonald for 2 years, and have some sort of clause that prevent you from going to school and earn a degree.
It's literally a year (this year) and he still gets money from his elc regardless...he's already made nearly 100k. I think he'll be alright.
 
Not a fan of this rule. A bit unethical, you are clearly preventing someone from having a job and earning money on the basis that you technically own them...

Not to mention that you are hurting a player development, and potential future earnings.

That's like working for McDonald for 2 years, and have some sort of clause that prevent you from going to school and earn a degree.
The rule is there to keep the CHL leagues solvent by maintaining good rosters rather than allowing the best players to go to the AHL early. Keeping the feeder leagues in good shape is in both the CHL and the NHL’s best interests and by and large the players play where they fit the best at the end of the day. This only affects a small handful of players each year who are demonstrably too good for the CHL but not quite good enough for the NHL yet. That’s life, it’s the way it goes. No different than being very well established in your current position at work but not quite ready for the big promotion…you continue to pay your dues and it all works out in the end.
 
The rule is there to keep the CHL leagues solvent by maintaining good rosters rather than allowing the best players to go to the AHL early. Keeping the feeder leagues in good shape is in both the CHL and the NHL’s best interests and by and large the players play where they fit the best at the end of the day. This only affects a small handful of players each year who are demonstrably too good for the CHL but not quite good enough for the NHL yet. That’s life, it’s the way it goes. No different than being very well established in your current position at work but not quite ready for the big promotion…you continue to pay your dues and it all works out in the end.
So, all about revenue? who cares about the player..
- leagues interests ahead of player interests,.. its just business

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It hurts the player development.

For example, Jordan Dumais is a pro player, right now, through and through.
Why should a pro player go play for a junior league?, makes zero sense.
- what good does it do for him to score like 180 points in the Q
 
That’s life, it’s the way it goes. No different than being very well established in your current position at work but not quite ready for the big promotion…you continue to pay your dues and it all works out in the end.
It is actually very different. Anyone of us with “normal” jobs can just go apply for the higher up position with another company.

Your scenario of staying at the same company for all your life and “paying your dues” is exactly how people end up not being paid their worth and is an incredibly outdated line of thinking.
 
So, all about revenue? who cares about the player..
- leagues interests ahead of player interests,.. its just business

-----

It hurts the player development.

For example, Jordan Dumais is a pro player, right now, through and through.
Why should a pro player go play for a junior league?, makes zero sense.
- what good does it do for him to score like 180 points in the Q
It hurts the development of Frankie Corrado when an NHL coach scratches him for nearly a year but what can you do...

Its the world, its not fair or perfect.

If he was so concerned about not being able to play in the AHL at the age of 19 then he could have gone a different route that isnt the CHL like a lot of other Canadian prospects do. I'm sure he was aware of the rules when he signed his CHL contract.
 
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He had the option to go to Tri-City, play a year of NCAA and then jump to pro.

He choose the CHL, and rightfully so. These guys are all understanding of the rules. Both he and his agent were well aware that the AHL wasn't an option at 19 for him. Every player in the league is aware of the rules.

He's not the first, not remotely close, and won't be the last.
 
If it was in the NHL’s best interest to change the agreement it would have been changed by now. If you take out the elite 19 years olds then the 17 year old draft eligibles don’t have the elite talent above them to actually push them.
If you take out the 19 year olds, then the 17 year olds get more minutes which is more valuable for development than the quality of competition.

The NHL allows this rule to stay because some of the more influential owners are buddies with CHL team owners. Not because it would hurt player development. Even if the CHL were to become insolvent, there is such a high demand for a competitive league for 16-18 year olds that one or more would fill in the gap whether it be a new league popping up in Canada or other leagues like the NCAA and foreign leagues filling in.
 
If you take out the 19 year olds, then the 17 year olds get more minutes which is more valuable for development than the quality of competition.

The NHL allows this rule to stay because some of the more influential owners are buddies with CHL team owners. Not because it would hurt player development. Even if the CHL were to become insolvent, there is such a high demand for a competitive league for 16-18 year olds that one or more would fill in the gap whether it be a new league popping up in Canada or other leagues like the NCAA and foreign leagues filling in.
No way you just said this while advocating for Dumais to get an exception to switch leagues so he can play against stronger competition. 😂

He'll play more in junior so its more valuable for development!
 
No way you just said this while advocating for Dumais to get an exception to switch leagues so he can play against stronger competition. 😂

He'll play more in junior so its more valuable for development!

You don't think it's fair to say that 19 yr olds and 17 yr olds may have different development needs?
 
No way you just said this while advocating for Dumais to get an exception to switch leagues so he can play against stronger competition. 😂

He'll play more in junior so its more valuable for development!
I haven't advocated for Dumais to get an exception. I don't think he should until the NHL-CHL agreement is changed.
 
If you take out the 19 year olds, then the 17 year olds get more minutes which is more valuable for development than the quality of competition.

The NHL allows this rule to stay because some of the more influential owners are buddies with CHL team owners. Not because it would hurt player development. Even if the CHL were to become insolvent, there is such a high demand for a competitive league for 16-18 year olds that one or more would fill in the gap whether it be a new league popping up in Canada or other leagues like the NCAA and foreign leagues filling in.
But those 17 year olds aren’t challenged nearly as much which I mean everyone seems to be awfully concerned about with their own drafted prospects but not the future ones they will be picking. I would be in favour of some kind of exception put in for the truly elite level prospect. I just think on the collective on a larger scale then one teams prospect maybe having to stay back the NHL is just fine with the way this works. Fans have been complaining about this literally as long as I can remember and it has never even really been a real discussion about changing it.
 
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Not a fan of this rule. A bit unethical, you are clearly preventing someone from having a job and earning money on the basis that you technically own them...

Not to mention that you are hurting a player development, and potential future earnings.

That's like working for McDonald for 2 years, and have some sort of clause that prevent you from going to school and earn a degree.
Entry level slides still pay out signing bonuses. CHL players also get paid on top of that. Additionally, the CHL teams paid to train and develop these players and give them the platform to get drafted. If you start allowing every 19 year old to jump to the AHL you basically kill the CHL and then the pipeline ends. It would be fine if teams were allowed one exception every so many years, but even then I'd only support it with some additional requirements like statistical anomalies and NHL compensation to the CHL team, and it counting towards the cap regardless of whether the player is in the minors or not.

Your argument is basically that NHL teams should own the players after they're drafted, which is pretty hypocritical to me. The rule literally exists to sustain the CHL, the top players every year are 19-20 year old players. You're also denying younger players the chance to play against a guy as dominant as Dumais to improve themselves as they become draft eligible. A 16-18 year old league would be vastly inferior for developing those players into NHLers. You're basically suggesting neutering the Canadian development system that has produced 80% of historical NHLers.

Plus Dumais didn't work on his defensive game and his numbers were largely dunking on non-playoff teams (Columbus themselves shared an infographic near the end of the season where he was something like 3.5 PPG against the worst team in the league and 0.9 against the best). Halifax's mid-season acquisitions were an injection of talent and likely elevates Dumais' numbers to the inflated number he got to. Lawrence for example was pacing for similar numbers to Dumais after being traded to Halifax and led the team in playoffs scoring.

Joshua Roy had a pretty dominant Q season as well in his D+1, and spent his entire D+2 working on making his game more translatable to the NHL,, hurting his overall numbers but he looks ready to play in the NHL now. He'll still probably start in the AHL, but don't be surprised to see him get games later in the year. Many Habs fans thought he had nothing to prove in the Q and Roy proved them wrong. It is about mindset. Drouin thought he had nothing to learn in the CHL and never progressed as a result.

Dumais still has a lot of things to work on to be an NHLer that can be worked on in the CHL. He's not a Patrick Kane-level talent, so he's not going to get by with Patrick Kane-level defensive awareness. His numbers look more impressive because he never made Team Canada, most top players don't play 64 games in a season. Drouin paced for more points than Dumais in his draft year and his D+1 yet wasn't given exemption status.

Anyways, Dumais won't be hurt development-wise from going to the Q again, he'll be hurt if he thinks he has nothing to work on there. I'm sure he's aware of that.
 
But those 17 year olds aren’t challenged nearly as much which I mean everyone seems to be awfully concerned about with their own drafted prospects but not the future ones they will be picking. I would be in favour of some kind of exception put in for the truly elite level prospect. I just think on the collective on a larger scale then one teams prospect maybe having to stay back the NHL is just fine with the way this works. Fans have been complaining about this literally as long as I can remember and it has never even really been a real discussion about changing it.
While the 17 year olds may not be challenged as much physically, they will receive more attention from the coaches, more TOI, and have larger sample sizes for pro scouts.

Plus, I don't think it's a given that the CHL would collapse if it lost most of its post-draft players. I think fans would still support their local teams and would still focus on the 'future' stars.
 
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I'll never understand the "he has nothing more to prove/learn in junior hockey".

Dumais is a very talented young player but he still has plenty of areas that he could improve upon in junior hockey. For example - he still hasn't proven he can take over in the playoffs.

If I'm Columbus I'm hoping he adds some more muscle and show more consistency in his effort level.
 
Marner went back to the OHL for his draft +1.

If the NHL approves and allows him to go to the AHL, great, but if he goes back he can dummy the league and work on other aspects of his game.

Suzuki as an example, when he went back he focused on his defensive game.

What happens if he's allowed to go to the A, nut struggles mightily ?
 
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I'll never understand the "he has nothing more to prove/learn in junior hockey".

Dumais is a very talented young player but he still has plenty of areas that he could improve upon in junior hockey. For example - he still hasn't proven he can take over in the playoffs.

If I'm Columbus I'm hoping he adds some more muscle and show more consistency in his effort level.
People learn the most when they are challenged. It's fair to say that jrs mostly wont be very challenging for Dumais anymore.

Sure playoffs may be different, but they are a very small part of the season.
 
Your argument is basically that NHL teams should own the players after they're drafted, which is pretty hypocritical to me. The rule literally exists to sustain the CHL, the top players every year are 19-20 year old players. You're also denying younger players the chance to play against a guy as dominant as Dumais to improve themselves as they become draft eligible. A 16-18 year old league would be vastly inferior for developing those players into NHLers. You're basically suggesting neutering the Canadian development system that has produced 80% of historical NHLers.

Why is it Hypocritical ? The NHL only want whats best for the player and hopefully turn into a good player so they can shower him with millions. CHL wants to milk a players talent and name for 1 more year so they can sell tickets.

You could keep the same level of competition in the CHL by allowing 1 more overager or 1 more european import, so its really not about having a better league so that 16-18 years old develop better. They have a limit on overager so it gives a chance for icetime to young player, having Dumais gone would do the exact same thing. People just rather go watch an NHL draft pick that has potential than a 21 yo that will end up in europe or echl.

83% of NHL players played in the AHL at some point, the same argument could be made about having 19-20 years old go to AHL to elavate the game there, and benefits everybody else.
 
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Its not only on-ice. The off-ice is also very important. In the AHL he will be paired with a vet who take him under his wings and show him how to be a pro, have a schedule, eating, training etc.... In the CHL you are stuck with a bunch of tiktokers.

Éric Bélanger (who coached at Q level) also said in a podcast that he tried to be fair and develop everybody but that sometimes he would have to neglect his top players in order to do.
 
Its not only on-ice. The off-ice is also very important. In the AHL he will be paired with a vet who take him under his wings and show him how to be a pro, have a schedule, eating, training etc.... In the CHL you are stuck with a bunch of tiktokers.

Éric Bélanger (who coached at Q level) also said in a podcast that he tried to be fair and develop everybody but that sometimes he would have to neglect his top players in order to do.

And ultimately the coach is trying to win games, right?
 
In the AHL yes and no. A struggling prospect will still get decent minutes/coaching if the NHL team wants to develop him.

The most obvious case is when you see a young goalie getting most of the starts, even tho his number are much lower than the 28-30 years old veteran.
 

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