Olympics: Russia possibly disqualified from Pyeongchang (UPD: IOC Suspends Team Russia)

[Fantomas]

You missed the point altogether. It is you who does not understand basic criminal trial procedures. To be fair and credible, those accused of crimes have to be afforded the opportunity to confront their accusers.

This to me is the biggest problem in all of this. Worst of all, the infamous bottles with scratches have not even been seen and confirmed. We have to take the word of persons like McLaren and the people that were hired to look at them.

Russia was never given the opportunity to inspect these bottles or even pictures, not to mention conduct its own testing.

In other words, none of this would stand in a civilized court of law. But the IOC - an unelected body - does what it wants.

 

[MisterNoItAll]

Why suspend an entire country? Why not just ban the individual athletes, who cheated, from the Olympics? Why should we generalize an entire country, and make innocent hard working athletes suffer for a select few? The decision by the IOC was a plot against Russia, influenced by politics, and no less than that. Anyway, Bettman has been avenged by this news, so he's happy, since the KHL will not participate. The IOC look like a bunch of dummies.

 

[Fantomas]

Why suspend an entire country? Why not just ban the individual athletes, who cheated, from the Olympics? Why should we generalize an entire country, and make innocent hard working athletes suffer for a select few? The decision by the IOC was a plot against Russia, influenced by politics, and no less than that. Anyway, Bettman has been avenged by this news, so he's happy, since the KHL will not participate. The IOC look like a bunch of dummies.

The KHL likely will participate, although we do not know for sure yet.

 

[MXD]

Why would criminal/penal standards be applied to non criminal/penal process, exactly?

 

[MXD]

Why suspend an entire country? Why not just ban the individual athletes, who cheated, from the Olympics? Why should we generalize an entire country, and make innocent hard working athletes suffer for a select few? The decision by the IOC was a plot against Russia, influenced by politics, and no less than that. Anyway, Bettman has been avenged by this news, so he's happy, since the KHL will not participate. The IOC look like a bunch of dummies.

The issue is that these individual athletes are alleged to be against the rules BECAUSE of a state-sponsored program.

Frankly, the issue is that it dragged so long in the first place, thus enabling the IOC to seriously shoot itself in the foot.

 

[TheSituation]

who currently live in fear of their life. Yes whistle blowers that are discredited at every turn, called traitorous , insane, crriminal or all three.

Please tell me what is the operational reason to have a non WADA sanctioned mass spec lab next to the ones that were testing athletes ? is it a fung shuei type of deal ? And if russia DIDNT manipulate tests, you think their inability to produce some 1400 B samples is the result of some unfortunate clerical error ? has anyone been held to accopunt for the loss of these samples ?

This isn't some grand conspiracy of the west and those who insist it is are deluded. Prey tell what level of proof would you accept that this was a systemic far reaching system ? If there is no level of proof that wont crumble before " its those westeners jealous of russia" then come out and say that everyone the world over will simply have to take russia's word for it that they dont dope their atheletes.

thanks, but no.

Wait lol, I'm confused I'm in total agreement with you. I think I misunderstood your past sarcasm.

 

[Zybalto]

Why suspend an entire country? Why not just ban the individual athletes, who cheated, from the Olympics? Why should we generalize an entire country, and make innocent hard working athletes suffer for a select few? The decision by the IOC was a plot against Russia, influenced by politics, and no less than that. Anyway, Bettman has been avenged by this news, so he's happy, since the KHL will not participate. The IOC look like a bunch of dummies.

I dont think you have actually studied the scope of this.

This isnt just the entire Russian under-18 team getting banned for doping.

Were talking more than 1000 Russian athletes between 2011-2015. Systemic doping with full knowledge and participation of the state. This isnt generalizing an entire country when the country has cheating as its official position. 30-50% of all Russian medalists were implicated based on which event was being held.

I would hold off stigmatizing the athletes as much as the state in this though as we do not know who was complicit or who was bullied into doing this. All I know is that if this was happening in my country, public outcry would be so massive that the government would probably fall within a week.

The proof is so damning, people that are defending this are really starting to look ridiculous. I'd rather have the rest of the sports world angry at me but happy I am cleaning up my house versus what we are seeing. Tin foil hat conspiracies and laughable denials combined with a complete lack of accountability.

If the Russian government (and apparently most of the Russian comments I see) want to drive the final nail into the coffin of this generation of Russian athletes as cheaters and liars, they are free to do so but history will not kind to them.

......and one more thing on the IOC (an organization of which I am not a fan), it would be faaaaaaaaaar harder to pull off a credible conspiracy of this scope than for it to have actually happened the way all the evidence says it happened. A little self reflection would be important here......or do you think all Russian whistleblowers should be shot like "Stalin would have done" as was said by the honorary President of Russia's Olympic committee.

This is insanity and its hard to fathom those who would defend it.

 

[IslesNorway]

Ok so this isn't really about protecting athletes from doping it's a logistical matter you're concerned with.

I'm not concerned with anything. I just pointed out to you why the NHL, as a private organization not part of the American or Canadian Ice Hockey Federation, doesn't adhere to WADA/IOC rules in the same manner as others.
The right to compete in the Olympics and World Championships belong to the national federations - not private entities like the NHL. That's why the IOC have to make a deal with the NHL in order to allow their players to take part.

The NHL is not clean , far from it. [MOD] Many NHLers would certianly be banned if they were tested by WADA, but they will not be banned unless they are caught in an international competition. Comparatively, if the owner, GM and team doctor of an NHL consciously fed its players steroids and other performance enhancing drugs, should not the team be thrown out or players banned?

Athletes not subjected to testing by WADA because their organization or sport is not part of the IOC can take as many drugs they want with little or no fear of being caught. Unfair? Perhaps so but those are facts.

As pointed out in the post right above, this is state run doping programmes that has gone on for years and the NHL bit is mostly irrelevant. Sure the Russians are upset and sore but the comments made by top people in Sports over there just makes Russia look more and more like a robber state every day.

Any country where the sports ministers and other top brass threaten whistleblowers with death and injury deserves nothing but resentment by the rest of the world and really has no place amongst the respected sporting nations of the world.

 

[Saskatoon]

For those saying there is no evidence there are two 100ish page reports that found "beyond a reasonable doubt that Russia's Ministry of Sport, the Centre of Sports Preparation of the National Teams of Russia, the Federal Security Service (FSB), and the WADA-accredited laboratory in Moscow had operated for the protection of doped Russian athletes within a state-directed failsafe system"

There is a pile of evidence.


https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/20160718_ip_report_newfinal.pdf

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/mclaren_report_part_ii_2.pdf

 

[sandysan]

For those saying there is no evidence there are two 100ish page reports that found "beyond a reasonable doubt that Russia's Ministry of Sport, the Centre of Sports Preparation of the National Teams of Russia, the Federal Security Service (FSB), and the WADA-accredited laboratory in Moscow had operated for the protection of doped Russian athletes within a state-directed failsafe system"

There is a pile of evidence.


https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/20160718_ip_report_newfinal.pdf

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/mclaren_report_part_ii_2.pdf

piles of evidence from western co-conspirateurs, they say.

 

[Yakushev72]

Its an IOC procedure, not a court procedure, not even mentioning criminal procedure. If you add that he should be returned to Russia, thats another case. I assume everybody accepted IOC procedural rules. If I am right you can appeal to Lausane. Btw forget this positivism which you are used to in first national ordinary court instances. Dont know how this specific arbitrary work though. Any procedure in front of international organization is completely different than national cases. But Russia as member accepted IOC rules so responsible people know what this procedure is all about.

You missed the point again. What I am saying is that the fate of the Russian team fell into the hands of a self-professed criminal and cheat who sought a new life in the USA, and who made allegations against RUSADA that could not be rebutted because Rodchenkov was in hiding. So the accused never had the chance to challenge his account. As a result of his unchallenged accusations, which pardon himself on the basis that he was only doing what his superiors told him to do, the nation of Russia was banned from the Olympics. Its not about procedure, its about fairness.

 

[sandysan]

You missed the point again. What I am saying is that the fate of the Russian team fell into the hands of a self-professed criminal and cheat who sought a new life in the USA, and who made allegations against RUSADA that could not be rebutted because Rodchenkov was in hiding. So the accused never had the chance to challenge his account. As a result of his unchallenged accusations, which pardon himself on the basis that he was only doing what his superiors told him to do, the nation of Russia was banned from the Olympics. Its not about procedure, its about fairness.

what part of fairness is having an unsanctioned mass spec lab and destroying 1400 "B" samples that could have exhonnerated them ?

oh that's right, none. There are perfectly valid reasons to have a black lab connected to the real lab via a hole in the wall. perhaps cell costs are exhorbinant in russia so they resirted to two soup cans at the end of a string to communicate as a cost saving measure and the black lab was just there to let the WADA lab know that they would be more than happy to help with the sample back up and would even go so far as to reduce the amount of work the wada lab would have to do by destroying 1400 samples for them.

Altruists one and all. we shouldn't be banning them. we should be thanking them. thanking them by letting them push whatever they want into their athletes and then take their word for it afterwards.

 

[KrejciMVP]

Glad Putin said athletes can go. Hope the Russians have great success and their fans bring flags and sing the anthem everywhere. Sing that anthem everywhere you go.

 

[MXD]

Wouldn't these flags be disallowed in the buildings, as the flag of a non-participant?

 

[KrejciMVP]

Wouldn't these flags be disallowed in the buildings, as the flag of a non-participant?

Hope every Russian fan brings one in. Paint them on faces. Go all out. Mock the IOC every chance they get

 

[Macman]

I imagine many Russians are feeling embarrassed and upset by all of this but their blame is misdirected. It should be directed at the sport and government officials in their country who are so enamoured by gold that winning by any means necessary is OK with them, including probably taking advantage of unwitting athletes.

When Ben Johnson won his gold by cheating in 1988, Canada held a federal inquiry that lasted for months, uncovered even more cheaters and led ultimately to tougher regulations and testing. Canada didn't blame others or claim it didn't happen. It did something about it. Russia should try that instead of threatening whistleblowers and blaming the West.

The evidence in the McLaren report is overwhelming. If you don't believe it, give it a read. On top of that, Russians are testing positive at a rate that overwhelms all other countries combined. The only conspiracy in all of this is of Russia's making.

The truth sometimes hurts, but it can also be freeing.

 

[Advanced stats]

Are Russian posters really playing the victim card here?

You got caught in a huge scandal, end of story.

No, the west doesn't hate you,
No, it's nothing against Russia specifically.

You got caught cheating and lying and now you're punished. What's so hard about that? You can't cheat and claim victim at the same time.

I'm glad 199/200 countries can now compete fairly.

 

[sandysan]

Hope every Russian fan brings one in. Paint them on faces. Go all out. Mock the IOC every chance they get

yeah that worked wonders for people who tried to wear the apparel of non ioc sponsors ( i.e the branding police). No matter what happens, the annals of history will show that russia won exactly ZERO medals in South Korea.

I'm all for ANYONE mocking the IOC ( there are few as deserving) but you might want to get your mocking in before you enter the venues or wait till the athletes come home then flip the ioc off.

 

[KrejciMVP]

yeah that worked wonders for people who tried to wear the apparel of non ioc sponsors ( i.e the branding police). No matter what happens, the annals of history will show that russia won exactly ZERO medals in South Korea.

I'm all for ANYONE mocking the IOC ( there are few as deserving) but you might want to get your mocking in before you enter the venues or wait till the athletes come home then flip the ioc off.

It's for us. Not you. If a Russian flag offends you get help

 

[sandysan]

It's for us. Not you. If a Russian flag offends you get help

as a member of the west, I though it was your default position that the russian flag MUST offend me and be the cause of this great big conspiracy that I am a willing participant in.

When you get back home, do what you want. Have putin put the medals on all of the winners over their non sanctioned russian uniforms. fine by me. But if the IOC can penalize an athlete for wearing the shoes of her sponsor (New balance) and they can revoke your ticket to venues if you try to advertise non sponsored brands, the idea that they will let people in to wave the russian flag around seems pretty slim.

and it's for you ? Good luck at having players don another jersey to beat up on a bunch of amateurs and has beens in order to get a hockey medal. Sending pros to take on amateurs is right up your alley if I am not misinformed. but I guess if you can't win best on best, then take whatever you might win in.

 

[KrejciMVP]

as a member of the west, I though it was your default position that the russian flag MUST offend me and be the cause of this great big conspiracy that I am a willing participant in.

When you get back home, do what you want. Have putin put the medals on all of the winners over their non sanctioned russian uniforms. fine by me. But if the IOC can penalize an athlete for wearing the shoes of her sponsor (New balance) and they can revoke your ticket to venues if you try to advertise non sponsored brands, the idea that they will let people in to wave the russian flag around seems pretty slim.

and it's for you ? Good luck at having players don another jersey to beat up on a bunch of amateurs and has beens in order to get a hockey medal. Sending pros to take on amateurs is right up your alley if I am not misinformed. but I guess if you can't win best on best, then take whatever you might win in.

Oh the Russians will show up with thousands of flags and they'll be singing their anthem. Perhaps he IOC will have the eject everyone lol. It'll be beautiful to see all the red white and blue. It'll also be wonderful this summer at the world cup. Can't wait

 

[Jablkon]

You missed the point again. What I am saying is that the fate of the Russian team fell into the hands of a self-professed criminal and cheat who sought a new life in the USA, and who made allegations against RUSADA that could not be rebutted because Rodchenkov was in hiding. So the accused never had the chance to challenge his account. As a result of his unchallenged accusations, which pardon himself on the basis that he was only doing what his superiors told him to do, the nation of Russia was banned from the Olympics. Its not about procedure, its about fairness.

And professor of law and entire IOC and WADA just swallowed it. WADA definetely hadnt any concerns before... I am gonna read that report soon so I will let you know. Shame your police didnt find any other evidence.

 

[Dueling Banjos]

Is there a single proof Russian government is directly responsible?

 

[mouser]

Is there a single proof Russian government is directly responsible?

There are some compelling claims that decisions went all the way up to Vitaly Mutko’s office as then Minister of Sports. Mutko now holds the position of Deputy Prime Minister. Many other government employees are implicated in the report. As well as employees of the FSB—the main successor agency to the KGB.

Best to read the reports if you want to make your own decisions.

 

[Zybalto]

Is there a single proof Russian government is directly responsible?

Grigory Rodchenkov, The director of the doping lab, the guy who ran the whole show, is the key witness. He took all of his hard drives with him with a TON of information detailing contacts between him and his superiors. The evidence against Russian deputy PM Vitaly Mutko was so damning, he has been barred from even attending the games for life. Vitaly Mutko is a very close friend of Putin and is in charge of the 2018 World Cup of Football to be held in Russia. There were of course other government officials involved as well as elements of the FSB.

You should watch the documentary "Icarus". Completely riveting account of how a high end amature cyclist and documentary filmmaker accidentally stumbled onto this while he was working on a documentary detailing the effects of the drugs in light of the problems in the sport of Cycling. and was able to film the entire thing.

This wasnt a snap judgement. The investigation has been going on for a couple of years kicked off by a German documentary.

In short, its not a single proof but a ton of digital and forensic proof to go along with the testimony of the guy who ran it all. Read the WADA reports.