Olympics: Russia possibly disqualified from Pyeongchang (UPD: IOC Suspends Team Russia)

[Fantomas]

There's no truth in that statement.

Actually there is truth in the statement that Americans systematically doped. The US will claim that they have since cleaned up their act, but there is no way of knowing this because they are the ones pushing all the investigations.

OLYMPICS; Anti-Doping Official Says U.S. Covered Up

 

[KrejciMVP]

Actually there is truth in the statement that Americans systematically doped. The US will claim that they have since cleaned up their act, but there is no way of knowing this because they are the ones pushing all the investigations.

OLYMPICS; Anti-Doping Official Says U.S. Covered Up

these guys could watch Americans inject steroids right in front of them and they would still deny it

 

[Xokkeu]

these guys could watch Americans inject steroids right in front of them and they would still deny it

Not really. Lance Armstrong is basically a persona non grata in America. Marion Jones lost all her endorsements. None of the MLB players even suspected of using steroids are in the Hall of Fame.

If the US organized a mass doping program and all we got was an anthem and shirt ban I doubt many people would care. We still know who's American and who's not.

 

[BalticWarrior]

Not really. Lance Armstrong is basically a persona non grata in America. Marion Jones lost all her endorsements. None of the MLB players even suspected of using steroids are in the Hall of Fame.

If the US organized a mass doping program and all we got was an anthem and shirt ban I doubt many people would care. We still know who's American and who's not.

As if the U.S. goverment has the effin time in the world to supervise systematic doping scheme. Only Russian goverment could stoop so low.

 

[KrejciMVP]

Not really. Lance Armstrong is basically a persona non grata in America. Marion Jones lost all her endorsements. None of the MLB players even suspected of using steroids are in the Hall of Fame.

If the US organized a mass doping program and all we got was an anthem and shirt ban I doubt many people would care. We still know who's American and who's not.

what happened to Peyton Manning when PED's were shipped to his house in his wifes name?

Rodney Harrison a PED user is in the HOF cohosting sunday night football

the 90's yankees titles are all still there and not stripped.

 

[Jussi]

Actually there is truth in the statement that Americans systematically doped. The US will claim that they have since cleaned up their act, but there is no way of knowing this because they are the ones pushing all the investigations.

OLYMPICS; Anti-Doping Official Says U.S. Covered Up

Note the difference in national Olympic committee and government officials and sports ministers. US government had no part in any USOC test result cover ups (and I'm sure there have been such in the past, e.g. Carl Lewis), where as Russian government did via Mutko.

 

[Jussi]

these guys could watch Americans inject steroids right in front of them and they would still deny it

Citation needed.

 

[IslesNorway]

Actually there is truth in the statement that Americans systematically doped. The US will claim that they have since cleaned up their act, but there is no way of knowing this because they are the ones pushing all the investigations.

OLYMPICS; Anti-Doping Official Says U.S. Covered Up

There have lots of American (and other) athletes being doped over the years, often systematically . That is not the point. But when they are caught, they do not blame other countries for their misfortune, or threathen those who expose them with death.

As someone posted above, when Team Finland got caught in Lahti they did not blame the World but themselves. [MOD]

 

[Jussi]

what happened to Peyton Manning when PED's were shipped to his house in his wifes name?

Rodney Harrison a PED user is in the HOF

the 90's yankees titles are all still there and not stripped.

Who gives a shit? Government wasn't involved, try to stick to the thread topic and stop engaging in worhtless whataboutism.

 

[Fantomas]

Note the difference in national Olympic committee and government officials and sports ministers. US government had no part in any USOC test result cover ups (and I'm sure there have been such in the past, e.g. Carl Lewis), where as Russian government did via Mutko.

1) IOC has presented no proof of Russian state involvement, but they claim to believe it

2) Saying that state-orchestrated doping is somehow inherently worse than, say, corporate-orchestrated doping is bogus framing. America's power does not derive from the state, but Russia's does. So this is a superficial defense.

America also has extremely decentralized state institutions and most economic power is vested by corporations. But this does not get them off the hook in any way.

 

[Hockeyisl1fe]

I will just quote your post back at you so you can admire its prejudice and banality.

I see nothing wrong with what he said. Actually applies to Finland too. Not just with hockey though, people went crazy over basketball a couple of months ago because of the FIBA EC success. Before that nobody gave a shit.

 

[sandysan]

these guys could watch Americans inject steroids right in front of them and they would still deny it

well we learned from the best.

just wondering, what happened to those nearly 1500 "B" samples ? Any guesses ? did you guys have a second unacreditied black lab that the first unacredited blcack lab was unaware of ? how you guys keep track of the multiple levels of cheating is something to behold, its not surprising that some adulterated samples fell through the cracks ( or the holes in the walls, your choice)

and people who get caught doping in the west are either pariahs or begrudgingly accepted but not supported ( gatlin). no one reveres ben johnson. lance armstrong will likely end up peniless 1400 samples under russian control went poof and what was the consequence again ? of that's right, excluding the promotion of the guy responsible for their security to the world cup, nothing. nothing but denials and conspiracy theories.

 

[Macman]

What I find interesting about all of this is that when the McLaren report first came out many Russian officials acknowledged the problem and vowed to clean it up. Now the response seems to be "Western lies." I thought there was some hope but I guess not.

The IOC demanded after Sochi that the Moscow lab turn over 1,400 stored urine samples for testing but the lab destroyed them instead. That alone is reason enough to sanction Russia.

 

[Jussi]

1) IOC has presented no proof of Russian state involvement, but they claim to believe it

2) Saying that state-orchestrated doping is somehow inherently worse than, say, corporate-orchestrated doping is bogus framing. America's power does not derive from the state, but Russia's does. So this is a superficial defense.

America also has extremely decentralized state institutions and most economic power is vested by corporations. But this does not get them off the hook in any way.

Mutko's involvement is enough.

 

[mouser]

If the mods have to come through and clean this thread up again posters are going to start receiving thread bans.

That's enough of the petty bickering.

 

[Fantomas]

There have lots of American (and other) athletes being doped over the years, often systematically . That is not the point. But when they are caught, they do not blame other countries for their misfortune, or threathen those who expose them with death.

Actually, as that article demonstrates, when American athletes get caught they are immediately forgiven.

 

[Hunn]

Reading this thread I realize that there are too many misconceptions and outright lies about the IOC ban.

(1) It is well-known that (some) athletes do PEDs. They do that in Europe, in the US, in China, in Russia, virtually everywhere. When athletes (teams, coaches, federations) are caught, they are punished depending on the circumstances, evidence, severity. Sometimes the punishment is mild (example: Sharapova), sometimes is devastatingly harsh (example: Armstrong).

However, until now, no existing state has been ever caught running a state-sponsored doping program. This is the main (and frankly speaking, the only) point behind the IOC ban.

(2) Do other states run state-sponsored doping programs? Perhaps so, but it is unlikely a Western country does this. The reason is that in the West, sports is not that important for promoting political/ideological agenda.

Do you honestly believe that, say, Swedish government would run a doping program (with all risks associated with it) to promote the idea that Swedish skiers are the greatest in the world and, therefore, "Mother Sweden is Great"? It is as ridiculous as the idea of Henrik Lundqvist organizing a "LöfvenTeam" social movement. This is just not part of Western mentality and style of governing.

(3) The IOC ban is not politics, but government officials meddling with urine samples is politics by definition. It is Russian government politicizing sports, not IOC, Switzerland, the West, the world, the Universe.

There is nothing special about Russia to hate it and to invest resources into "russophobia industry". Russia is just one country out of 200+ currently on the map, not worse and not better than Japan, France, etc.

We all live on the same planet, belong to the same world, and we are bound by international rules. If you don't like them, feel free to renegotiate them, not break them.

(4) The ban itself is surprisingly soft, basically all clean athletes are welcome to participate in the Olympics, including team events.

In ice hockey, apart from certain redesign of sweaters, Team "Olympic Athletes from Russia" would be indistinguishable from "Team Russia". So, please stop promoting blunt lies about "punishing the innocent".

 

[Farnham4top6]

Reading this thread I realize that there are too many misconceptions and outright lies about the IOC ban.

(1) It is well-known that (some) athletes do PEDs. They do that in Europe, in the US, in China, in Russia, virtually everywhere. When athletes (teams, coaches, federations) are caught, they are punished depending on the circumstances, evidence, severity. Sometimes the punishment is mild (example: Sharapova), sometimes is devastatingly harsh (example: Armstrong).

However, until now, no existing state has been ever caught running a state-sponsored doping program. This is the main (and frankly speaking, the only) point behind the IOC ban.

(2) Do other states run state-sponsored doping programs? Perhaps so, but it is unlikely a Western country does this. The reason is that in the West, sports is not that important for promoting political/ideological agenda.

Do you honestly believe that, say, Swedish government would run a doping program (with all risks associated with it) to promote the idea that Swedish skiers are the greatest in the world and, therefore, "Mother Sweden is Great"? It is as ridiculous as the idea of Henrik Lundqvist organizing a "LöfvenTeam" social movement. This is just not part of Western mentality and style of governing.

(3) The IOC ban is not politics, but government officials meddling with urine samples is politics by definition. It is Russian government politicizing sports, not IOC, Switzerland, the West, the world, the Universe.

There is nothing special about Russia to hate it and to invest resources into "russophobia industry". Russia is just one country out of 200+ currently on the map, not worse and not better than Japan, France, etc.

We all live on the same planet, belong to the same world, and we are bound by international rules. If you don't like them, feel free to renegotiate them, not break them.

(4) The ban itself is surprisingly soft, basically all clean athletes are welcome to participate in the Olympics, including team events.

In ice hockey, apart from certain redesign of sweaters, Team "Olympic Athletes from Russia" would be indistinguishable from "Team Russia". So, please stop promoting blunt lies about "punishing the innocent".

Norway is doing it.

 

[Jussi]

Reading this thread I realize that there are too many misconceptions and outright lies about the IOC ban.

(1) It is well-known that (some) athletes do PEDs. They do that in Europe, in the US, in China, in Russia, virtually everywhere. When athletes (teams, coaches, federations) are caught, they are punished depending on the circumstances, evidence, severity. Sometimes the punishment is mild (example: Sharapova), sometimes is devastatingly harsh (example: Armstrong).

However, until now, no existing state has been ever caught running a state-sponsored doping program. This is the main (and frankly speaking, the only) point behind the IOC ban.

(2) Do other states run state-sponsored doping programs? Perhaps so, but it is unlikely a Western country does this. The reason is that in the West, sports is not that important for promoting political/ideological agenda.

Do you honestly believe that, say, Swedish government would run a doping program (with all risks associated with it) to promote the idea that Swedish skiers are the greatest in the world and, therefore, "Mother Sweden is Great"? It is as ridiculous as the idea of Henrik Lundqvist organizing a "LöfvenTeam" social movement. This is just not part of Western mentality and style of governing.

(3) The IOC ban is not politics, but government officials meddling with urine samples is politics by definition. It is Russian government politicizing sports, not IOC, Switzerland, the West, the world, the Universe.

There is nothing special about Russia to hate it and to invest resources into "russophobia industry". Russia is just one country out of 200+ currently on the map, not worse and not better than Japan, France, etc.

We all live on the same planet, belong to the same world, and we are bound by international rules. If you don't like them, feel free to renegotiate them, not break them.

(4) The ban itself is surprisingly soft, basically all clean athletes are welcome to participate in the Olympics, including team events.

In ice hockey, apart from certain redesign of sweaters, Team "Olympic Athletes from Russia" would be indistinguishable from "Team Russia". So, please stop promoting blunt lies about "punishing the innocent".

More importantly, governments financials are too transparent for such a thing to be possible. The use of every cent has to be documented and some people (ie. journalists) have no other job than to go through every possible financial document when it comes to sports.

 

[Jussi]

Norway is doing it.

Well pretty much every one outside of Norway is expecting them to be caught sooner or later for at least tampering/hiding positive doping samples of cross country skiiers.

 

[IslesNorway]

Well pretty much every one outside of Norway is expecting them to be caught sooner or later for at least tampering/hiding positive doping samples of cross country skiiers.

Yet no Norwegian skier has ever been caught for actually taking PEDs. When Johaug was caught for the lip balm everything was done in public and no blame was shifted elsewhere. In fact no Norwegian winter athlete has ever been taken for illegal drugs as far as I can recall


I'm not saying that it doesn't exist here but Norway hasn't got the resources to run a state program like the Russians nor is it part of our mentality. There have been some borderline cases with the breathing machines and asthma medication but they are not doping cocktails. And once it has been known to the public nothing's been covered up.

Perhaps there will be cases here too but it won't be because the skiing federation ordered it. And the state does not run Norwegian sports - the federations do.

Finland got caught because they desperately wanted to win at home after many fruitless years and fell to the temptation. In Norway, the sheer number of quality skiers makes a thing like that unnecessary.

 

[Jussi]

Yet no Norwegian skier has ever been caught for actually taking PEDs. When Johaug was caught for the lip balm everything was done in public and no blame was shifted elsewhere. In fact no Norwegian winter athlete has ever been taken for illegal drugs as far as I can recall


I'm not saying that it doesn't exist here but Norway hasn't got the resources to run a state program like the Russians nor is it part of our mentality. There have been some borderline cases with the breathing machines and asthma medication but they are not doping cocktails. And once it has been known to the public nothing's been covered up.

Perhaps there will be cases here too but it won't be because the skiing federation ordered it. And the state does not run Norwegian sports - the federations do.

Finland got caught because they desperately wanted to win at home after many fruitless years and fell to the temptation. In Norway, the sheer number of quality skiers makes a thing like that unnecessary.

It was a bit more complicated than that. It was a number of skiiers coached by certain people. The whole team weren't coached by these people and most had no dealing with hemohes injections.

 

[Tomas W]

If the mods have to come through and clean this thread up again posters are going to start receiving thread bans.

That's enough of the petty bickering.

Sorry that this gone political, but sadly international sports sometimes gets political. It would be great if it werent, but alas.

Dont blame us fans for that, blame the people who try to destroy good fun, and good sportmanship by cheating.

 

[Yakushev72]

What I find interesting about all of this is that when the McLaren report first came out many Russian officials acknowledged the problem and vowed to clean it up. Now the response seems to be "Western lies." I thought there was some hope but I guess not.

The IOC demanded after Sochi that the Moscow lab turn over 1,400 stored urine samples for testing but the lab destroyed them instead. That alone is reason enough to sanction Russia.

I don't think many Russians are arguing that no doping went on. The objection is that the allegation that the Government ordered the doping can't be rebutted because Rodchenkov is hiding out under witness protection protocol, and accordingly can't be cross-examined by representatives for the accused. It is just as plausible that he provided masking services on his own initiative, to be a valuable team guy and collect the rewards that could go with such a role. Once accepted under witness protection, his testimony is only valuable if he points the finger at higher ups. Maybe they are guilty, but regardless, WADA and the IOC took his word at face value, resulting in the punishment of all of Russian athletes. That is the objection.

 

[Macman]

I don't think many Russians are arguing that no doping went on. The objection is that the allegation that the Government ordered the doping can't be rebutted because Rodchenkov is hiding out under witness protection protocol, and accordingly can't be cross-examined by representatives for the accused. It is just as plausible that he provided masking services on his own initiative, to be a valuable team guy and collect the rewards that could go with such a role. Once accepted under witness protection, his testimony is only valuable if he points the finger at higher ups. Maybe they are guilty, but regardless, WADA and the IOC took his word at face value, resulting in the punishment of all of Russian athletes. That is the objection.

Who would Rodchenkov be collecting those rewards from if he was the highest guy in the food chain? There's absolutely no reason or reward for him to risk doing this alone. The scheme was also much too elaborate for one guy. For one, it involved the collection of hundreds of clean samples from athletes prior to the Games so they could be swapped out when the competitions began. He would have been one busy fella. Also, WADA and the IOC didn't just take his word for this. They were given the lab's hard drives, spreadsheets and thousands of documents and emails.

Unless he's also a master forger, that had been pretty convincing.