Olympics: Russia possibly disqualified from Pyeongchang (UPD: IOC Suspends Team Russia)

[KrejciMVP]

[mod]

My predict the IOC won't go after dopers these games in an attempt to make it look like only a Russian problem. Politics always come first before justice, no matter how many dopers America sends to compete

 

[Fantomas]

My predict the IOC won't go after dopers these games in an attempt to make it look like only a Russian problem. Politics always come first before justice

I think it's amazing to see Western (particularly American) posters know so little about their own countries' histories. They actually honestly believe that Russians invented cheating, spying and intimidation and are willing to take on faith that their institutions are conducting fair and objective processes.

And with their holier-than-thou attitudes they only preach to the converted. The entire Russian public will embrace the government's position about the Olympics not because they believe their state to be completely without fault, but because they will see that Western institutions (and Western media) wish their country only the worst.

 

[Yakushev72]

It's not the West- It's the World. Blaming the West is just more of the classic " the West hates Russia" mentality that you've been taught for the past 100 years. If the IOC didn't find the evidence damning they wouldn't have done this and got massive worldwide support in doing so.
The clean Russian athletes (If they even exist) should be the ones to speak out against their bosses in the Ministry of Sports and the Olympic committee because they are the true losers in all of this.
Nobody outside Russia are inclined to believe the Kremlin propaganda this time - and rightly so. The earth is still round even if your leaders tell you it is not

The problem that troubles most Russians is that Rodchenkov's testimony was offered under the provisions of "witness protection" in the United States. He is in hiding, and his identity has been changed, ostensibly to protect him from Russian retaliation. But to obtain witness protection status, you have to offer something of value to those who protect you. In this case, he offered evidence to, in effect, indict himself, to prove that he coordinated and supervised criminal operations, since he was personally in charge of all drug testing operations at the Sochi Labs. He is protected not because he is a self-confessed criminal, but because he claims that he was only carrying out the instructions of higher level authorities. Unlike normal court trial procedures, the accused cannot confront their accuser (Rodchenkov), because he is in hiding and can't be identified. In effect, this makes him the judge and executioner, without offer of a fair opportunity to cross-examine him. Of course, his plea for his own security and freedom was taken up by Richard Pound, who has forever been a crusader against alleged Russian doping.

 

[holyprime]

What i take from this whole mess is, that apparently WADA totally relies on the tests or samples from the national labratories, or at least do no tests at all during a crucial period of an athlete's season (otherwise someone like Legkow, if he doped, should've been caught)?

If so, what could possibly go wrong..?

 

[Jablkon]

When the West gets to be judge, jury and executioner there is a problem. They decide who gets to speak under confidentiality, they pick the witnesses, ban athletes without evidence of doping, set all the rules of the process and somehow you think that's ok.

It's not even a black-and-white matter of guilt but rather one of proportion. Not only has the IOC's burden of proof not been met as for the accusation of state-sponsored doping, they choose to overreach and punish innocent athletes. That is over the line and Russia will be justified in abandoning the Olympics altogether.

So you want to say that canadian lawayer and russian chemist fooled entire Russia. ... I realy wonder what you have against Canada or whats not trustworthy on that guy. You had one year to make statement. You dont wana see circumstances, ok, thats your problem. If you think that Russia didnt do anything wrong, all good, just dont expect many athletes to come. Btw we speak about organized infiltration into laboratories. And you still pointing to your west. As you can see Russia doesnt really have great reputation for neutral investigation as you somehow loosing journalists or some chemists are called cowards and traitors, well they are obviously outside thhe country for that reason. Only thing that matters and will always matter first is if Russia wants to have clear system of doping control or not. If you never adress this issue you will not compete or you will complain soon or later again or you will compete in some of your own competition blaming west for how terribly you were treated and calling people to prepare for war because of IOC.

 

[Jablkon]

The ban gets more interesting when IOC doesn't do anything about rampart North American doping issues. Human growth hormone is a good example...

Now that Russians are dealt with, we can expect US ADA to monitor NHL?

NHL is private entity. All that matters in regards to NHL and OGs are NHL players on OGs being negative in tests.

 

[KrejciMVP]

every response to the wests massive doping culture is, but but but its a private industry, we're clean!

 

[Jablkon]

The problem that troubles most Russians is that Rodchenkov's testimony was offered under the provisions of "witness protection" in the United States. He is in hiding, and his identity has been changed, ostensibly to protect him from Russian retaliation. But to obtain witness protection status, you have to offer something of value to those who protect you. In this case, he offered evidence to, in effect, indict himself, to prove that he coordinated and supervised criminal operations, since he was personally in charge of all drug testing operations at the Sochi Labs. He is protected not because he is a self-confessed criminal, but because he claims that he was only carrying out the instructions of higher level authorities. Unlike normal court trial procedures, the accused cannot confront their accuser (Rodchenkov), because he is in hiding and can't be identified. In effect, this makes him the judge and executioner, without offer of a fair opportunity to cross-examine him. Of course, his plea for his own security and freedom was taken up by Richard Pound, who has forever been a crusader against alleged Russian doping.

Cant believe how you undervalue classic legal institute by calling it judge and executioner. Sure something like IOC would baned one of the biggest member just for fake accusation. Btw you still can go to Lausane with that, dont you? To be honest that Rodchenkov guy is obviously already dishonested in entire Russia. People are just pissed that he even said it.... No surprise he is under protection or hiden.

 

[Jussi]

If the top political leadership is in favor of it, do you think the KHL will say, "No Volodya, we must defy your wishes, because we have been threatened by Rene Fasel, the mustachioed man from Switzerland, who might provisionally suspend us from the WC in May. Obviously, Volodya, the World's attention is much more intensively focused on the IIHF May championships than on the Olympic Games." I think, overall, the KHL is equal as frightened of Fasel as the NHL is.

As I explained, Fasel can't make decisions signlehandedly. If the other federations are for it, then it will happen.

 

[sandysan]

It doesn't necessarily have to be this complicated. With the meldonium scandal we have learned that the definition of doping is extremely fluid and that certain governing bodies have unlimited freedom in setting parameters and applying them toward drugs. Meldonium wasn't doping for many years, but suddenly it became doping. A drug that is scientifically known to not be performance enhancing was banned very suddenly by persons who knew that it was extremely widespread in certain countries in the former Soviet block. The same persons also most likely knew that the drug took months to clear an athlete's system.

They banned it anyway, knowing what would happen. Suddenly scores of athletes from Russia and these other countries became dopers. Just like that. What a propaganda coup.

And now every one of these athletes is tainted as a result of political moves. That's what power in politics can do.

if you think that drugs have to be shown to be beneficial to be banned, you might want to look into what WADA says about it and look at the concept of maskers. No one is taken back by WADA adding compounds in the middle of the night, they know. They either just don't care or are willing to risk it. you rolls the dice and you takes your chances. If they REALLY wanted to keep injecting god knows what into their ciculatory systems they could have sought out therapeutic exceptions which are, surprisingly, quite easy to obtain.

FCS the canadian snow boarder almost lost his medal over weed. But if you want to argue that individuals under an unmbrella that has CLEARLY engaged in subterfuge if not outright fraud should be viewed exactly as any athlete who ISNT part of a state sponsored doping program, good luck with that. and if you are going to have testing there has to be OBJECTIVE limits, lest it devolves into people seeking refuge in claiming ignorance. WADA increased the limit for THC ( I presume) 10X, but whatever the limit, you pee over you know what you are ? A doper. By definition.

And maybe you can help me out, if everything was on the up and up, what happened to all of those misplaced/destroyed B samples ? A simple clerical error ? Were they dropped when they were passed through the hole in the wall into the black lab ? but your right, on top of the other evidence the fact that the samples that could either exhonorate or damn russia just happened to go poof while under russian control and its STILL a giant conspiracy from the west.

Do you have anymore fanciful tales ? perhaps ones involving unicorns ?

 

[Jablkon]

every response to the wests massive doping culture is, but but but its a private industry, we're clean!

Jesus, everybody expect NHL to take care of it when they go to OGs or WHC, wherever, they are all profesionals. You can open thread about it but it doesnt relate to this topic.

 

[Jussi]

every response to the wests massive doping culture is, but but but its a private industry, we're clean!

Holy false strawman, Batman! You really can't make the difference between state run doping and individual doping, can you? "Western" governments are clean because they're not involved in it, unlike with Russia.

 

[sandysan]

The ban gets more interesting when IOC doesn't do anything about rampart North American doping issues. Human growth hormone is a good example...

Now that Russians are dealt with, we can expect US ADA to monitor NHL?

the NHL is a private league. if the us ADA said they wanted to look into NHL players the league would be well within their rights to tell them to go pound sand.

And it's always struck me as strange that people don't deny that the russians are dopers, but claim ( with no evidence) that since everyone else is clearly doping as well that it somehow magically absolves the russians. So seriously which is it ? Are the russians dopers or is the argument that of course they are dopers but they are being selectively singled out and THAT is what is not fair ?

 

[Jussi]

Yeah based on Rodchenkov's testimony. Meanwhile Legkov has never tested positive.

You don't need to test positive in order to get banned/suspended. Do you have even the faintest idea of how many ways athletes can get suspended?

 

[IslesNorway]

[MOD]

every response to the wests massive doping culture is, but but but its a private industry, we're clean!

The NHL is as is all American sports - they aren't under the National Federations like in Europe. The NHL is littered with drugs of all kinds but since the NHL do not compete in the OG athletes are only texted when the NHL wants. If WADA decided to do drug tests there'll be lots of suspensions but they can't. However they can do tests at the games and those can kead to susiensions if the NHL complies. Unfair perhaps but all down to organisation.

There's lots of doping in the West and elsewhere but nowhere else is it organised by it's government

 

[TheSituation]

Western countries with established black labs that accept samples through a hole in the wall ? I'm sure there are TONS of them, but they pay the extortion to the WADA cabal to keep their names out of it, I'm pretty sure. it's all very hush hush.

Well, sounds like you have it all figured it out.

 

[sandysan]

You truly believe that governments of US and UK who spent a lot of money on their sport programs have no say in wich substances will be allowed by WADA who ran by Americans and Brits, really?

so wada decides to let substance X pass, you think the piss limits are somehow secret ? if russia sees that substance X is allowed. why can't they switch to substance X ? Are they tied by legacy to use substance Y and only substance Y?

I love the image of some guy at wada making arbitrary changes to the piss limits 5 minutes before an even in order to cause the disqualification of athletes from only one country.

 

[KrejciMVP]

So if Russia doping goes private it's Ok?

 

[Yakushev72]

Cant believe how you undervalue classic legal institute by calling it judge and executioner. Sure something like IOC would baned one of the biggest member just for fake accusation. Btw you still can go to Lausane with that, dont you? To be honest that Rodchenkov guy is obviously already dishonested in entire Russia. People are just pissed that he even said it.... No surprise he is under protection or hiden.

You missed the point altogether. It is you who does not understand basic criminal trial procedures. To be fair and credible, those accused of crimes have to be afforded the opportunity to confront their accusers. This is especially true in cases like Rodchenkov's, carried out under "witness protection" provisions, where the only person offering testimony has admitted that he is personally guilty of the crimes that he is testifying about.

 

[Instincts]

UN declaration of human rights
1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defense

 

[IslesNorway]

So if Russia doping goes private it's Ok?

If they say that in our organisation we will not compete in international competitions like the world cup or Olympics or sort under the IOC - then yes. If the KHL goes all private they can let their players use as many drugs as they like as long as they only play in Russia. Once they compete internationally, they come under WADA jurisdiction.

Have you ever wondered why professional boxers or sumo wrestlers don't take part in the Olympics? Body builders? MMA? None of them would pass a drugs test.

 

[KrejciMVP]

If they say that in our organisation we will not compete in international competitions like the world cup or Olympics - then yes. If the KHL goes all private they can let their players use as many drugs as they like as long as they only play in Russia. Once they compete internationally, they come under WADA jurisdiction.

Have you ever wondered why professional boxers or sumo wrestlers don't take part in the Olympics? Body builders? MMA? None of them would pass a drugs test.

Ok so this isn't really about protecting athletes from doping it's a logistical matter you're concerned with.

 

[Jablkon]

You missed the point altogether. It is you who does not understand basic criminal trial procedures. To be fair and credible, those accused of crimes have to be afforded the opportunity to confront their accusers. This is especially true in cases like Rodchenkov's, carried out under "witness protection" provisions, where the only person offering testimony has admitted that he is personally guilty of the crimes that he is testifying about.

Its an IOC procedure, not a court procedure, not even mentioning criminal procedure. If you add that he should be returned to Russia, thats another case. I assume everybody accepted IOC procedural rules. If I am right you can appeal to Lausane. Btw forget this positivism which you are used to in first national ordinary court instances. Dont know how this specific arbitrary work though. Any procedure in front of international organization is completely different than national cases. But Russia as member accepted IOC rules so responsible people know what this procedure is all about.

 

[mouser]

UN declaration of human rights
1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defense

The IOC banning the Russian OC is not a penal offense/penal punishment.

 

[sandysan]

The IOC banning the Russian OC is not a penal offense/penal punishment.

but they didnt bold that part, so just ignore it.