Rumour, Trade & Free Agent Discussion

[Whileee]

Use the threat of an offer sheet as leverage to drive the price down a bit.

I highly doubt that the Jets would prepare or threaten an offer sheet. That's a sure way to tick off the TB GM and ensure he won't consider a trade with the Jets. The only plausible option for a trade with the Jets would be if TB was afraid that Cirelli would sign an offer sheet they couldn't or wouldn't match and would prefer to work out a trade with a team in the western conference.

The sequence is improbable, but would have to look like this...

Cirelli and agent far apart from TB in contract negotiations, to the point that they are willing to sign an offer sheet.

Another team prepares or works towards an offer sheet that Cirelli seems inclined to sign.

TB decides they can't or won't match, and looks for a trade before the offer sheet is signed.

There would be a lot of intrigue and cat and mouse, but my guess is that TB would know before free agency whether they need to trade Cirelli.

In terms of teams that might be a threat for an offer sheet, I think the Habs might be high on the list. They could use another top 2C, and they have a GM that doesn't mind playing tough with other GMs.

 

[ecolad]

Outside of Cirelli some other center targets:

Patrik (If he comes back and plays the last part of the season and shows decently well)
Dvorak (Coyotes will need to clear salary if they bring back Hall). He is still only 24 and was pacing 45 points this season, good faceoffs, and among the best on the team in terms of CF% and XGF%
Necas - Hurricanes now have Aho, Staal and Torchek down the middle. Would this open up the possibility of trading him for pieces to help on the wing?
Dylan Strome - Is rumored to be available. Good offensive player but is suspect defensively.
Lias Andersson - Hasn't produced that well as of yet but might just need a change of scenery.

Most of these players have some question marks and or holes in their games.

For the Jets purposes I would think Cirelli or Dvorak would fit best due to how far along they are in their development. Necas as a very young player and is likely only available for a large overpay. I still like Patrik's style of play and think he fits this teams identity but he has to be healthy to even consider him. Not really interested in Strome and Andersson might have some nice upside but is very unproven.

Just to flesh out your thoughts a bit, what type of player (style/ skill attributes) do you believe would constitute the best fit 2C on our team ? Would we want the speedy puck possession type guy - one who can shoot well but is more a playmaker, looking to set up others? Or maybe the speedy, more physically inclined player that forechecks with intensity, wins board battles and cycles well?
Which of these types would work best with our probable wingers - not cast in stone but likely Laine/Ehlers ? And after we answer that, which of the players that you nicely identified would be the probable target ?

 

[Gil Fisher]

Little and Copp would both be excellent options for 2C...if Connor and Wheeler were the wingers.

 

[surixon]

I highly doubt that the Jets would prepare or threaten an offer sheet. That's a sure way to tick off the TB GM and ensure he won't consider a trade with the Jets. The only plausible option for a trade with the Jets would be if TB was afraid that Cirelli would sign an offer sheet they couldn't or wouldn't match and would prefer to work out a trade with a team in the western conference.

The sequence is improbable, but would have to look like this...

Cirelli and agent far apart from TB in contract negotiations, to the point that they are willing to sign an offer sheet.

Another team prepares or works towards an offer sheet that Cirelli seems inclined to sign.

TB decides they can't or won't match, and looks for a trade before the offer sheet is signed.

There would be a lot of intrigue and cat and mouse, but my guess is that TB would know before free agency whether they need to trade Cirelli.

In terms of teams that might be a threat for an offer sheet, I think the Habs might be high on the list. They could use another top 2C, and they have a GM that doesn't mind playing tough with other GMs.

The Leafs used that tactic to get Kessel. Turned out bad for them when they bottomed out and had to give up Seguin.

But you are probably right in that our organization is likely to play fair.

 

[surixon]

Just to flesh out your thoughts a bit, what type of player (style/ skill attributes) do you believe would constitute the best fit 2C on our team ? Would we want the speedy puck possession type guy - one who can shoot well but is more a playmaker, looking to set up others? Or maybe the speedy, more physically inclined player that forechecks with intensity, wins board battles and cycles well?
Which of these types would work best with our probable wingers - not cast in stone but likely Laine/Ehlers ? And after we answer that, which of the players that you nicely identified would be the probable target ?

That is a very good question. Personally I think what I would want is very different than what Maurice would prefer.

I would like a speedy play driving playmaking center like a Barzel type. I would have liked to see Roslovic get a long look there this past year. He has the speed and the ability to drive offense but I don't think he fits Maurices ideals so he only plays C when Maurice is out of options.

I think Maurice values size and tenacity down the middle hence his love of Lowry and him converting Wheeler. His ideal is probably a big body center that can break up the cycle effectively in his own end and can forecheck hard in the offensive end. That C also needs to have high end skill to play with the puck in the nz and the ability to read off his line mates and keep plays going or finish them.

It is the reason why I keep bringing up Nolan Patrick. Its not that he is my first choice, just that he checks most of the boxes that I believe Mauroce values. Granted the health concerns are a big risk.

• Is big and plays physical
• Good cycle player and projects to be very good there as he fills out
• Intelligent player that reads the play well and doesn't need to hold the puck for a long time
• Shows signs of developing into a plus defensive C
• Very good with the puck in the nz and is excellent at gaining the zone with control
• Is a very good playmaker and has a good shot so should be able to facilitate or capitalize.
• Likes to hang out around the crease and get his nose dirty

As far as wingers to play with. I would go with Connor and Wheeler. Patrick can gain the zone in the nz and would fit well with players who can really cycle well. He would also I think excel with players with more defined roles (Connor scorer and Wheeler playmaker).

I'm in the process of comparing all lottery pick centers and his career start isn't all that out of the ordinary except for missing this past year.

 

[ps241]

That is a very good question. Personally I think what I would want is very different than what Maurice would prefer.

I would like a speedy play driving playmaking center like a Barzel type. I would have liked to see Roslovic get a long look there this past year. He has the speed and the ability to drive offense but I don't think he fits Maurices ideals so he only plays C when Maurice is out of options.

I think Maurice values size and tenacity down the middle hence his love of Lowry and him converting Wheeler. His ideal is probably a big body center that can break up the cycle effectively in his own end and can forecheck hard in the offensive end. That C also needs to have high end skill to play with the puck in the nz and the ability to read off his line mates and keep plays going or finish them.

It is the reason why I keep bringing up Nolan Patrick. Its not that he is my first choice, just that he checks most of the boxes that I believe Mauroce values. Granted the health concerns are a big risk.

• Is big and plays physical
• Good cycle player and projects to be very good there as he fills out
• Intelligent player that reads the play well and doesn't need to hold the puck for a long time
• Shows signs of developing into a plus defensive C
• Very good with the puck in the nz and is excellent at gaining the zone with control
• Is a very good playmaker and has a good shot so should be able to facilitate or capitalize.
• Likes to hang out around the crease and get his nose dirty

As far as wingers to play with. I would go with Connor and Wheeler. Patrick can gain the zone in the nz and would fit well with players who can really cycle well. He would also I think excel with players with more defined roles (Connor scorer and Wheeler playmaker).

I'm in the process of comparing all lottery pick centers and his career start isn't all that out of the ordinary except for missing this past year.

I like the idea of a Patrick type but probably not Patrick himself. Between injuries and other sketchy intangibles I think there is way too much risk associated with him. The only way I would feel comfortable with the risk with Nolan Patrick is if the cost of acquisition was really low. I would not give up an A prospect and would not give up a 1st round pick. Without a fully clean bill of health I would probably give up a 3rd round pick and that's not getting it done.

 

[surixon]

I like the idea of a Patrick type but probably not Patrick himself. Between injuries and other sketchy intangibles I think there is way too much risk associated with him. The only way I would feel comfortable with the risk with Nolan Patrick is if the cost of acquisition was really low. I would not give up an A prospect and would not give up a 1st round pick. Without a fully clean bill of health I would probably give up a 3rd round pick and that's not getting it done.

I hear you on the risk. It would have been great to get O'Reilly as he fits that archetype when he was available. But then there were character issues on him as well. Wasn't he the guy who drove drunk into a Tim Hortons restaurant? I guess I am OK taking a chance on players with character issues if you believe you can help the kid grow as a person.

As I mentioned Patrick isn't my first choice but I'm not sure if there is another center who can realistically be acquired that plays that prototypical Maurice game. Do you have any suggestions?

 

[ps241]

I hear you on the risk. It would have been great to get O'Reilly as he fits that archetype when he was available. But then there were character issues on him as well. Wasn't he the guy who drove drunk into a Tim Hortons restaurant? I guess I am OK taking a chance on players with character issues if you believe you can help the kid grow as a person.

As I mentioned Patrick isn't my first choice but I'm not sure if there is another center who can realistically be acquired that plays that prototypical Maurice game. Do you have any suggestions?

Just a bit weeded at work I will respond when I get a shot.

 

[ecolad]

That is a very good question. Personally I think what I would want is very different than what Maurice would prefer.

I would like a speedy play driving playmaking center like a Barzel type. I would have liked to see Roslovic get a long look there this past year. He has the speed and the ability to drive offense but I don't think he fits Maurices ideals so he only plays C when Maurice is out of options.

I think Maurice values size and tenacity down the middle hence his love of Lowry and him converting Wheeler. His ideal is probably a big body center that can break up the cycle effectively in his own end and can forecheck hard in the offensive end. That C also needs to have high end skill to play with the puck in the nz and the ability to read off his line mates and keep plays going or finish them.

It is the reason why I keep bringing up Nolan Patrick. Its not that he is my first choice, just that he checks most of the boxes that I believe Mauroce values. Granted the health concerns are a big risk.

• Is big and plays physical
  
• Good cycle player and projects to be very good there as he fills out
  
• Intelligent player that reads the play well and doesn't need to hold the puck for a long time
  
• Shows signs of developing into a plus defensive C
  
• Very good with the puck in the nz and is excellent at gaining the zone with control
  
• Is a very good playmaker and has a good shot so should be able to facilitate or capitalize.
  
• Likes to hang out around the crease and get his nose dirty

As far as wingers to play with. I would go with Connor and Wheeler. Patrick can gain the zone in the nz and would fit well with players who can really cycle well. He would also I think excel with players with more defined roles (Connor scorer and Wheeler playmaker).

I'm in the process of comparing all lottery pick centers and his career start isn't all that out of the ordinary except for missing this past year.

Thanks for the comprehensive response. Your assessment of Patrick makes it very clear why you have suggested him as a potential target for a 2C. But Id be very interested to know how you would rate someone like Cirelli, on a comparative basis if possible? I haven`t been able to find much info on here which actually trys to rate Cirelli - although the underlying premise seems to be that he would immediately solve our 2nd line problems.Any thoughts?

 

[mondo3]

Nolan Patrick for our first would be very tempting and I think fair for both teams,

 

[surixon]

Thanks for the comprehensive response. Your assessment of Patrick makes it very clear why you have suggested him as a potential target for a 2C. But Id be very interested to know how you would rate someone like Cirelli, on a comparative basis if possible? I haven`t been able to find much info on here which actually trys to rate Cirelli - although the underlying premise seems to be that he would immediately solve our 2nd line problems.Any thoughts?

I'm busy at work this afternoon but will post a reply this evening.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I hear you on the risk. It would have been great to get O'Reilly as he fits that archetype when he was available. But then there were character issues on him as well. Wasn't he the guy who drove drunk into a Tim Hortons restaurant? I guess I am OK taking a chance on players with character issues if you believe you can help the kid grow as a person.

As I mentioned Patrick isn't my first choice but I'm not sure if there is another center who can realistically be acquired that plays that prototypical Maurice game. Do you have any suggestions?

I'm with PS on the price I'd pay for Patrick. And we don't have a 3rd this year so it would have to be next year's 3rd. That would be the absolute top price I would pay. I would rather make it a C or D level prospect. The closer to nothing the better. Not just too much risk. Wayyyy too much risk. Even a clean bill of health wouldn't encourage me by very much. His pattern is that he can get healthy, but he can't remain healthy for any length of time.

I think you are trying too hard to match your version of what Maurice wants. If Maurice can't have what he wants, he will make do with the best he can get.

Wasn't Hayes a fit, by your definition? He was not a complete flop at 2C but Maurice demoted him to the 4th line anyway.

 

[surixon]

I'm with PS on the price I'd pay for Patrick. And we don't have a 3rd this year so it would have to be next year's 3rd. That would be the absolute top price I would pay. I would rather make it a C or D level prospect. The closer to nothing the better. Not just too much risk. Wayyyy too much risk. Even a clean bill of health wouldn't encourage me by very much. His pattern is that he can get healthy, but he can't remain healthy for any length of time.

I think you are trying too hard to match your version of what Maurice wants. If Maurice can't have what he wants, he will make do with the best he can get.

Wasn't Hayes a fit, by your definition? He was not a complete flop at 2C but Maurice demoted him to the 4th line anyway.

Well he hasn't to date with regards to trying homegrown none Maurice type players at center. Roslovic hasn't gotten a fair look, Petan never got a look with skilled players at C, Harkins was used fully on the wing etc. Maurice hasn't really groomed a C other then Lowry and Scheifele here. He prefers to use natural C's like Copp, Roslovic, Petan (formally), Harkins, Appelton at wing at the NHL level. He'd rather convert a natural winger in Wheeler then try a young natural C that doesn't mesh with his ideals. Not shocking the one young player he played at C is Gus who has that physicality and defensive foundation he requires.

Hayes is big but he's not a particularly physiacal or amazing player. Little outplayed him so he went to the fourth line by default due to Maurice valuing his checking line.

 

[10Ducky10]

AZ has quite a few centers. What would it cost for Schmaltz?
Poolman, a 2nd and KV or Poolman, a 2nd and Roslo?
He's a pretty good playmaker and AZ needs a RHD.
Would Niku, KV and a 2nd get it done?
I'd like to see Schmaltz between Wheeler and KC.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Well he hasn't to date with regards to trying homegrown none Maurice type players at center. Roslovic hasn't gotten a fair look, Petan never got a look with skilled players at C, Harkins was used fully on the wing etc. Maurice hasn't really groomed a C other then Lowry and Scheifele here. He prefers to use natural C's like Copp, Roslovic, Petan (formally), Harkins, Appelton at wing at the NHL level. He'd rather convert a natural winger in Wheeler then try a young natural C that doesn't mesh with his ideals. Not shocking the one young player he played at C is Gus who has that physicality and defensive foundation he requires.

Hayes is big but he's not a particularly physiacal or amazing player. Little outplayed him so he went to the fourth line by default due to Maurice valuing his checking line.

Not disputing your idea of a Maurice type but Bryan Little never fit that mold and Mau always went to him when he was available. As shown in the Hayes situation. I'm not sure Little was outplaying him but Maurice liked something better in him than in Hayes, which is all that matters.

I'm not debating your assessment of Maurice, or of his preferences. I'm saying that you are trying too hard to accommodate Maurice's preferences. If you can't find a better Maurice type C than Patrick, then give up on the Maurice type C. Cirelli not only scores at a decent clip and makes plays for his linemates but he is outstanding defensively, IIRC. I think Maurice would learn to like him pretty quickly with those attributes. DeMelo does not fit the Maurice archetype of a Dman either but look at how Mau reacted to him.

 

[Howard Chuck]

Interesting reading everyone's thoughts on 2C. I don't know all of the other mentioned players as well as most of you here. My only input is that we really need someone between Laine and Ehlers, because we know who Maurice prefers with Schief.

Laine and Ehlers are very creative/eastwest players that don't fit a typical mold, so whoever we get for 2C is going to have to fit that type of play. That's why I think Little still would have done great this year, but not with Ehlers and Laine. With Connor and Wheeler? Yes!

It all boils down to style of play for me. The right 2C would give us 2 first lines, not a first and second. We have 4 top line wingers, it would be amazing to have them both play with appropriate Centers.

Now I'll go back to listening

 

[surixon]

Not disputing your idea of a Maurice type but Bryan Little never fit that mold and Mau always went to him when he was available. As shown in the Hayes situation. I'm not sure Little was outplaying him but Maurice liked something better in him than in Hayes, which is all that matters.

I'm not debating your assessment of Maurice, or of his preferences. I'm saying that you are trying too hard to accommodate Maurice's preferences. If you can't find a better Maurice type C than Patrick, then give up on the Maurice type C. Cirelli not only scores at a decent clip and makes plays for his linemates but he is outstanding defensively, IIRC. I think Maurice would learn to like him pretty quickly with those attributes. DeMelo does not fit the Maurice archetype of a Dman either but look at how Mau reacted to him.

Oh Maurice would love Cirelli defensively. I just question if he has more offense then Copp in him. His scoring at 5 on 5 hasn't been much better then Copps despite playing with more skilled players.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

AZ has quite a few centers. What would it cost for Scmaltz?
Poolman, a 2nd and KV or Poolman, a 2nd and Roslo?
He's a pretty good playmaker and Vegas needs a RHD.
Would Niku, KV and a 2nd get it done?
I'd like to see Schmaltz between Wheeler and KV.

I don't think any of those come close but it is Az, so who knows?

I think you need to start with our 1st. Not sure what else they would need. What does VGK needing RHD have to do with anything?

How do you see Schmaltz between Wheeler and KV when you trade KV to Az for Schmaltz?

I think Schmaltz might be a good fit but I don't think we get him cheaply. He scored only 45 pts this year but that is still leading that team. Az has already given Keller a big raise and I assume they still want to retain Hall. If so they have a cap issue so Schmaltz could come available. In fact, I think they have a cap problem even without signing Hall.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Oh Maurice would love Cirelli defensively. I just question if he has more offense then Copp in him. His scoring at 5 on 5 hasn't been much better then Copps despite playing with more skilled players.

Fair question then. Who were his most common linemates? Are they a match for Ehlers and Laine? Ehlers and Wheeler?

 

[10Ducky10]

I don't think any of those come close but it is Az, so who knows?

I think you need to start with our 1st. Not sure what else they would need. What does VGK needing RHD have to do with anything?

How do you see Schmaltz between Wheeler and KV when you trade KV to Az for Schmaltz?

I think Schmaltz might be a good fit but I don't think we get him cheaply. He scored only 45 pts this year but that is still leading that team. Az has already given Keller a big raise and I assume they still want to retain Hall. If so they have a cap issue so Schmaltz could come available. In fact, I think they have a cap problem even without signing Hall.

haha
Sorry about that...got into the banana bread a bit early today.

 

[surixon]

Fair question then. Who were his most common linemates? Are they a match for Ehlers and Laine? Ehlers and Wheeler?

I'll post an analysis in a bit.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Oh Maurice would love Cirelli defensively. I just question if he has more offense then Copp in him. His scoring at 5 on 5 hasn't been much better then Copps despite playing with more skilled players.

Of his 44 pts this year 5 came on the PP, 2 came short handed. So 37 at evens. That's not bad. It is quite a bit more than Copp has ever scored in a season. In fairness though, Copp has usually been on the Lowry line and hasn't had much PP time at all.

 

[BatVader]

Oh Maurice would love Cirelli defensively. I just question if he has more offense then Copp in him. His scoring at 5 on 5 hasn't been much better then Copps despite playing with more skilled players.

You put Cirelli between Ehlers and Laine and your getting production... a lot more than if you put Copp in the same spot.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

You put Cirelli between Ehlers and Laine and your getting production... a lot more than if you put Copp in the same spot.

That's what I am thinking - but my opinion is soft. Haven't actually watched Cirelli enough. Cirelli has produced points at every level. Copp has not. I think Copp could score fairly well on a 3rd line with players like Harkins and Appleton/Roslovic. Not so much with Lowry - ???.

 

[10Ducky10]

I'd love to see Cirelli here but TB isn't going to trade him for what most of us would be willing to pay.
They will do other things to stay under the cap.
I think Schmaltz could be available, is on a nice deal and is only 24 years old.
Niku, 1st rounder and Berdin?