Duke749
Savannah Ghost Pirates
Did people really sit back and watch Pionk this past year and honestly think “yeh, that guy can barely play on the second pair.” while constantly carrying around dead weight? 
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Yup, many of them calling for him to be moved this off-season before his NMC kicks in.
Gil Fisher
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That would be foolish. I posted a list of top RHD earlier in the season. It got pretty weak pretty quick. He was easily top 15 and in a good year colser to top 5.
I would take him back at that price and term in a heartbeat.
untouchable21
I am not the guy you want to be wrong about.
sure but that's not really the point i was making. if Trouba really was no-good during his time as a Jet, posters would not be expecting that large of a return for him.
No one said Trouba was no good. I’m saying ppl are being unfair to pionk and the difference between is the two isn’t that great. If Trouba is a 2d Pionk is definitely a top 4 d. Also that I’d rather have Pionk and cap space than Trouba.
Trouba was and is a very good D. Better than Pionk. But I think this season shows how context matters, and you can't fully adjust for it with existing models when you are trying to evaluate a high minute player on a bad team. That's probably why so many, including me, had an overly negative assessment of Pionk from his metrics with the NYR. As we can see, even a very good D like Trouba can struggle when he's given top assignment on a bad team.
That's why Pionk's performance on a bad Jets team is encouraging. His relative metrics are good, and watching him play you can see how effective he is in many aspects of D. He still has holes in his game. He isn't great at managing the crease areas and he still tries to do too much and can get caught out of position. But I think he'll continue to improve in those areas, and he'll benefit with a really solid LD partner like Samberg or Morrissey.
Our whole D last year was better so of course everyone had better numbers when Buff is on your second pairing with chariot. Chariot and Myers both played top pairing this season.
Playing with Mo helped Trouba’s numbers pionk did not get that advantage. Little helped boost our numbers and we were a top team Pionk did not get that advantage. Would love to see numbers for turnovers in own end though. Give Pionk Samberg and I’m sure he’ll look a lot better 5 v5 too.
Not to mention we also got Heinola who looks great.
Playing with Mo helped Trouba’s numbers pionk did not get that advantage. Little helped boost our numbers and we were a top team Pionk did not get that advantage. Would love to see numbers for turnovers in own end though. Give Pionk Samberg and I’m sure he’ll look a lot better 5 v5 too.
Not to mention we also got Heinola who looks great.
5 points in 8 games with about 18 minutes a game?
Prettay, prettay, prettay, prettay good.
well we still have a hole at top pair RD so cap-space will be needed to fix that and Pionk's contract is only for 1 more year and i would not be surprised if he gets a yearly AAV higher than Morrissey on a long-term deal. Total Points and TOI are usually the drivers for Dmen salaries and Pionk leads in both for the Jets. That 5m cap saving b/w Trouba and Pionk is temporary and will be gone pretty fast, probably this off-season.
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Aries56
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I was never sold on Trouba as much as others here.
He was put in an advantageous position last year in an attempt to make him happy. I have no doubt that the organization was catering to him in an attempt to have him re-sign long term.
He put up a lot of points because he played on the PP, but he never excelled with the man advantage. He was just there and could pass the puck to our dynamite forwards up front.
His physicality is missed. He has the tools to clear bodies from the net and play physical if needed. He was better in the defensive zone than most we have now, but his transition game is weak.
Not a bad player, but I don't think he's worth ~8 million. He's not a franchise player that you build your defense around.
He was put in an advantageous position last year in an attempt to make him happy. I have no doubt that the organization was catering to him in an attempt to have him re-sign long term.
He put up a lot of points because he played on the PP, but he never excelled with the man advantage. He was just there and could pass the puck to our dynamite forwards up front.
His physicality is missed. He has the tools to clear bodies from the net and play physical if needed. He was better in the defensive zone than most we have now, but his transition game is weak.
Not a bad player, but I don't think he's worth ~8 million. He's not a franchise player that you build your defense around.
jgimp
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I wasn’t a huge fan of Trouba, but him and Morrissey together was one of the best pairings in the league. They complimented each other very well and each had their own quirks but each made up for each other.
Buffdog
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- Feb 13, 2019
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A high dollar top pairing is great until your weber/doughty/hedman/etc goes down for the season in February.
I'm really starting to like the idea of a defense made up of smart, good skating dmen who can make a nice read/first pass and defend positionally with good sticks. I'd take 6 "lidstrom lites" any day
I do think you want them to have some size sprinkled in there though. Lidstrom was a pretty strong guy and 6'2 so he wasnt getting pushed around much. Having 6 Quimm Hughes on the back end would make your puck moving pretty elite but all it takes is a team to figure out how tou transition the puck and put a heavy forecheck into that and you can neautralize a team of 6 Quinn Highes pretty quick.
Buffdog
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I agree. The need for average/above average size to go with those attributes is necessary.
i think you need to post some examples of team's d groups that fit each of those options
STL, WSH have a heavily invested top 4, and then a drop and i think both of those have good D-groups which helped them win cups. Vegas is another team with a strong investment in their top 4 then drop off after. Do not think a team with 6 lidstrom lights/or three 2nd pairs exists, maybe Carolina? But that's only if you using the criteria of $ and it will change when Hamilton gets his next deal. Whatever option is in-line with STL's composition, or WSH during their cup run is what i'd go with. I do not think i'd consider either having 3-2nd pairs though.
Like i mentioned before, in the POs seems like coaches often disregard the third pairing a bit and ride their top 4 heavily. Whatever equates to having very strong players in those roles imo is the best option.
isn't the bolded Pionk this year? Pionk has much higher PP1 TOI/PP points% than Trouba did in his final season and our PP as a whole has been very underwhelming with Pionk at the helm (he is part of the reason, not all of it of course), yet some fans are hush hush about this.
Trouba was only put on PP1 after Buff and Morrissey got hurt. Maybe they did do it just to make him happy, idk impossible to say. But they also went through 2 injuries, and (IIRC) Tyler Myers prior to him getting that role. He was 3rd in-line for that PP1 opportunity, I am not sure if that screams attempting to make him happy.
I do not think Trouba is a "franchise player" on the back-end, not many of those type of Dmen exist in the league, however the pairing of Morrissey-Trouba could have been a "franchise pairing" imo.
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Teemusalami204
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My hot take - Enstrom-Buff is the best pairing the Jets have had, and in some respects they could have been counted as one of the best in the NHL during their tenure.
Morrissey-Trouba were also a very strong pairing, but they had their ups and downs. I would say they were a good top pair, but not elite.
For the foreseeable future I don't see the Jets winning based on having the best top 4 on D. They need to be adequate in their top-4 and overwhelm teams with their forwards.
JetsWillFly4Ever
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IMO Toby-Buff was so underrated because a lot of our fans (myself included) struggled to identify what a good defensemen looks like. There numbers were damn near elite but they didn't look like the traditional d-pairing so they were underrated by our fans all the time. A lot of people wanted Buff moved to forward or traded early in his Jets career.
all casuals remember about toby is him getting hit in the boards a few times during Anaheim
id be surprised. idk which teams have a readily available high quality top 6 C and/or top-pairing RD to trade.
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Teemusalami204
Registered User
all casuals remember about toby is him getting hit in the boards a few times during Anaheim
All I remember about Toby was he was a damn good defencemen when we were a shit team and when we weren't a shit team anymore he wasn't as good. The timing never lined up well with him. It's kind of like Little. Are they still good players? Yes. Are they what they were in 2011-2015? No.
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