- Jun 10, 2014
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Fair enough. But our D being composed of some terrible players means he has played with some terrible partners too.
Rumour, Trade & Free Agent Discussion
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Fair enough. But our D being composed of some terrible players means he has played with some terrible partners too.
- Jun 10, 2014
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I don't think NYI is trading Barzal. He's their 1C
You could have stopped right there.
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Where does Morrissey rank? How would you rate him overall as a D?
I think you are way off in your assessment of Pionk if you think he's just a PP specialist.
Imo you can't use XGF or Corsi for the Jets as any kind of metric to compare against the rest of the league this past year as the whole team was in the sewer and skews everyone's individual results.
Even defensive and usual underlying metric star Lowry was bottom of the league bad.
Throw the stats out and hopefully the playoffs and next season see the team play more like they have the last 20 to 30 games.
Even defensive and usual underlying metric star Lowry was bottom of the league bad.
Throw the stats out and hopefully the playoffs and next season see the team play more like they have the last 20 to 30 games.
Atoyot
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Fun fact that I didn't expect, I mentioned that Pionk is tied for 5v5 scoring among our defensemen, the player he is tied with is Tucker Poolman.
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Atoyot
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OK, he has 20 pts not on the PP.Morrissey has been poor this year i've said it many times before. but he has put up good results in previous seasons.
So you rate Pionk the same level of Pietrangelo and Slavin then? since his rank is in their realm as you pointed out. You'd be comfortable paying him similarly in Caphit% to those guys?
The role he occupies on the Jets PP has historically provided very efficient individual point production across a myriad of different Dmen (Buff, Trouba, Myers, Morrissey for instance). His scoring rates at 5v5 have been quite underwhelming - worse than Trouba's as a Jet, and even as a Ranger in fact....actually even worse than Myers - and his defense imo id rate below-average/average for a 2nd pairing dmen.
PP Specialist/PP Reliant, whatever you want to call it the fact is his point production is heavily PP driven, the most reliant in the league other than 1 Dman. If you have trouble grasping this fact then we can end this convo here.
Where would you place Trouba as other than the physicality I don’t think Pionk is that much worse in his end. Trouba I don’t remember racking up a lot of points 5 v 5.
Trouba also had a lot more turnovers and Pionk rarely has costly turnovers. If Trouba is a 2 d I can’t see how Pionk is a 4/5. I’d rate him either a solid 3 d at worst 3/4.
Buffdog
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All this 2d vs 2/3 vs 3/4 has me wondering... would you rather have
1. A big dollar top pairing then a drop off to your second pairing then a drop off to your third pairing
Or
2. 3 second pairings (basically 6 dman that could be considered 2/3/4 dmen) but no drop off.
With jomo, pionk, and (hopefully) demelo and samberg, I think that's what we're looking at next year. With heinola in the pipeline, we are a couple of years and a 2-4RHD away from having a well rounded, balanced, affordable D corps
1. A big dollar top pairing then a drop off to your second pairing then a drop off to your third pairing
Or
2. 3 second pairings (basically 6 dman that could be considered 2/3/4 dmen) but no drop off.
With jomo, pionk, and (hopefully) demelo and samberg, I think that's what we're looking at next year. With heinola in the pipeline, we are a couple of years and a 2-4RHD away from having a well rounded, balanced, affordable D corps
I thought Trouba as a Jet was better than Pionk defensively and was often against tougher competition/usage. Trouba also carried some crap partners ie: Beaulieu and Stuart to good on-ice results, along with showing excellent chemistry with Morrissey and really enhanced our top pairing into one of the best duos in the league imo, which we have been clearly lacking this season. Trouba was one of the top 5v5 producers in his final 3 seasons as a Jet among NHL Dmen, in both totals and efficiency. from '16-'19 season: 14th in 5v5 pts/60, 15th in 5v5 pts/gp, 22nd in total 5v5 pts. Trouba got 123 mins of PP1 time his final season as a Jet and net a 50 pt year (36% PP points%), Pionk ended(?) this season with 155 mins with the top unit and was roughly scoring at the same overall pace as Trouba, however with evidently more PP1 time and heavier reliance on the PP for point production (55.6% PP points%).
Option 1 imo. I think having a very strong top 4D is crucial in the playoffs. Coaches often ride their top D pairings harder in the POs, i think having elite players in those roles is essential. ie: look at the spread of 5v5 TOI between Pietrangelo and Parayko, vs rest of the STL D group.
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Yeah him and Morrissey complimented each other very well.
We started seeing some nice chemistry between Morrissey and DeMelo near the end so hopefully we can retain DeMelo and see if that builds.
Sbisa and Beaulieu are pretty crap. Trouba was also playing a lot of those minutes with Morrissey for most of them. You said last 3 years which was after Stuart was gone.
You have Trouba’s offensive stats but defensively he gave away a lot of bad turnovers. His offensive numbers this year suggest he was able to put up those numbers because he had Morrissey vice versa but Pionk has not had Mo on the same line most minutes. This limits how offensively he can play. How effective. He also had Little, Stastny bumping up that second line. The more they score the more assists etc.
Also Pionk does not have to be Trouba equivalent if Trouba is a 2 after all, people are just arguing Pionk is a 3 3/4 which is lower.
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I don't think that is what he meant by option 1. Not how I read it at any rate. I think the drop off from pair 1 to pair 2 was meant to be greater than that. I think he meant relying heavily on that top pair. Not so much on a strong top 4.
You could make an argument in favour of that though, with the top 2 D playing very big minutes, 27-28/gm.
But I also like the idea of a competent but not all-star 1st pair and above average 2nd and 3rd pairs. Say about a 26-28 mil $ D corps.
My point is that he's been more well-rounded than just a PP specialist. That's all.
His on-ice shooting % has very likely dampened his ES scoring. As an example, Trouba's ES point production is about the same as Pionk's this year, and has dropped from last year. A big part of that is a drop in on-ice shooting %. It's an important variable, and not very stable from year to year for D.
Anyway, watching Pionk play this season
and not just focusing on metrics makes it pretty clear to me that he's not only effective on the PP. He has a solid all-around game.
But I think you're right, we've gotten to the end of useful discussion on this topic. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Atoyot
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There's some revisionist history going on with Trouba here. Make no mistake, Trouba was a very good defenseman for us and was better offensively for us than Pionk and is much, much better defensively.
jgimp
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Sorry... family issues to deal with... where were we...
1) I don’t think Little will play again. That injury looked bad and has apparently done serious damage. I think he’ll either call it a career or if he needs/wants money, get put on LTIR for a season before retiring.
2) Little isn’t a healthy player and definitely falls into the definition of LTIR
3) Little is not a 2C, or at least not on the Jets. He might be elsewhere, but for what he’s brings in Winnipeg, he’s overpaid.
Yes it would likely cost to move him, or at least we would get less in return, but to clear up his cap and open the roster spot for a player that can do the job we need him to do... it’s worth it.
As long as Little is here, Maurice will play him on the 2C.
4) Why buy him out? That should be the absolute last resort!
I’d rather get a 7th round pick than buy a player out and we could get at least that for both Little and Perreault.
5) Kulikov is not better than Beaulieu.
6) Sbisa sucks. If he didn’t it would have cost more to get him and he’d be getting payed more. Anyone can gave a good few games, but if you look back at their prior history you can see trends,.. I’m not saying Beaulieu is great, by any means and if we could get better, then sure, I’m all for it. But Kulikov and Sbisa are not better. At best they’re equal, and then I’d still choose Beaulieu.
7) yes
8) I’d take DeMelo over Pionk any day. I like his game and his style more. I think Pionk is hugely over rated on here.
I agree, if we get a true partner for Mo, that everyone wouldn’t just slide. Personally, I’d trade Pionk and keep DeMelo to partner with Samberg.
9) This team needs to stop living in the past and look and move forward. This isn’t the Atlanta Thrashers. We should hold no loyalty to that team or the players that played there just because they did, ie; Little
10) nothing to write here, I just hate ending a list on #9
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nobody imp0rtant
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agreed. it's particularly funny if you go back and re-read some of the trade proposals that were mustered up prior to Trouba actually getting traded. People undervalue his time as a Jet, or complain about his warts (ones that literally every Dman in the NHL have) but at the same time wanted PHI's '19 1st+Patrick/Myers/Frost or Sanheim, or Zibanejad from NYR etc in return for him. Makes no sense, if he was that bad you sure as hell ain't getting those pieces.
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1 & 2) I'm on the fence whether Little will play again or not. Apparently he was getting close to coming back, but decided to shut it down for the surgery. There is no guarantee that surgery will be successful enough to allow him to play again - but it might. If it does, I think there is a good chance he comes back. If it does not, then he would qualify for LTIR. But if he is passed as fit to play but chooses not to risk further injury he cannot honestly be LTIR'd.
That would be a tough spot for him. Retirement means losing a lot of money. The fact he is already a millionaire doesn't carry a lot of weight. There are not many like Buff. But he could follow that path. Refuse to report until they come around to cancelling his contract by mutual agreement. He probably gets at least some money that way.
3) That's a conclusion that does not fit the facts. He was playing well when he got hurt. He played up to 2C level the preceding 2 years even though the Jets wanted better for the PO. He was not a high end 2C. He was not a good fit with Ehlers and Laine. He should not have been playing with Ehlers and Laine. That is not his fault.
The price we would need to pay to move him - if he is as bad as you say, would use up the assets we would need to acquire a replacement.
The best solution is for him to come back and play well with whatever linemates he gets. He might play on the 3rd line and be a little overpaid for that role. Barring that, LTIR would be the next best option.
4) Buy him out if he can't play well enough and he can't be LTIR'd. When all the other options are gone what's left becomes the best option. Retirement is not an option that the Jets have. That needs to be his decision. I think it is extremely unlikely that he would walk away from that money. Trading him if he can't earn his contract, or at least come close, would cost us a 1st, at least. So it is not on the table, IMO.
Buying him out costs:
2.6 vs 5.3
.85 vs 5.3
2.1 vs 5.3
3.1 vs 5.3
1.5 vs 0
1.5 vs 0
1.5 vs 0
1.5 vs 0
an actual saving of 6.25 mil and a cap saving of 6.25 mil with the rest spread out over 8 years.
I think that is a very long time to be carrying that cap hit but it gives us more than half of his cap hit freed over the first 4 years and what will be a pretty small amount to pay over each of the last 4.
I'm not recommending buying him out. I hope it won't come to that. But it is a viable option.
5) Yes he is. Beaulieu is probably, but not certainly, better than Bitetto. We don't know about Dahlstrom since he got injured just when he was starting to play well. Sbisa and Kulikov are both clearly better than Beaulieu. You can take my word for it or we can just agree to disagree.
6) Beaulieu sucks. If he didn't it would have cost more to get him and he'd be getting paid more. You can choose Beaulieu all you like. He is seriously bad - and I am giving him full credit for fighting. Obviously we disagree but I think people are forgetting how well Sbisa played for us this year before getting hurt.
7) He earned - and got - a big raise last year. I think he has played better than his sv% indicates. He has been the victim of horrible support. But he has not played up to the contract he earned last year. He will be lucky to get that much again next year with this year's stats on his back. That's the life of a backup goalie. A series of 1 year contracts, always paying you for last year. If the Jets are feeling generous, they offer him another year at the same salary.
8) That is an opinion. I like DeMelo. I think he is making our whole D corps better. If it is up to me I sign DeMelo and don't spend either $$$ or player assets on a further upgrade to the RD. He has a quiet, reliable defensive game. He has very little offense. Pionk is a better puck mover, better offensively and almost as good defensively. But if we did acquire a true top pair RHD, I leave Pionk where he is and move DeMelo down to the 3rd pair. But it is close. I think they are both legit 2nd pair D.
If we have someone better than either Pionk or DeMelo on the top pair and the two of them elsewhere on the right side we don't have any more problems at RD.
9) I have no idea what you are talking about. Really.
10) Good idea.
jgimp
Registered User
I truly believe that if Trouba and his agent didn’t game the system, we could have gotten a return like that. It sounds like Troubas agent let it be known that he would ONLY sign in NY thereby severely diminishing return. Even TV pundits were shocked at the small return.
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