Rumor: Rumors & Proposals Thread | Lavoie Vs. Pederson Vs. Sutter Vs. Gagner Vs. Caggiula

Which of these players makes the team?

  • Lavoie

    Votes: 56 39.4%
  • Pederson

    Votes: 14 9.9%
  • Sutter

    Votes: 15 10.6%
  • Gagner

    Votes: 57 40.1%
  • Caggiula

    Votes: 7 4.9%
  • Bourgault

    Votes: 8 5.6%
  • Petrov

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • Other (specify in a post)

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • None of them makes the team, we'll start with 11 forwards

    Votes: 8 5.6%

  • Total voters
    142
  • Poll closed .
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Not open for further replies.

K1984

Registered User
Feb 7, 2008
15,340
16,968
A guy who's scored 20 goals more than once. You haven't even seen him play so don't make any judgements Drive. Your bias is ridiculous at times.

It's pretty evident you're going to hate him this season because of his size lmao because apparently size is the most important

I can't wait to slog through the incessant Brown rants this year no matter the actual performance.
 

CupofOil

Knob Flavored Coffey
Aug 20, 2009
48,537
45,311
NYC
Not sure why some people are even comparing Janmark to Kostin. Janmark is a perfect bottom 6 (4LW) player making 1m a year. Signing Janmark didnt prevent signing anyone else.

The debate is really Foegele vs Kostin vs Bjugstad. And a case can be made for all of them.

Foegele
- We more or less know what we are getting with him. Its a good thing and a bad thing. Hes going to give us probably around 12G in the regular season and probably a couple goals in the playoffs. Decent floor but limited ceiling.
- Fits in well with the team. Team mates like him.
- No particular value on the PP or PK.
- Is ok defensively.
- Big body. Goes to the net. Not great hands.
- Hes not a 2.75m dollar player
- Could argue that hes just blocking Holloway (LW3)
- Fact that he only has 1 year left on his deal (versus 2 from the others) I think is a plus. We also dont know if there was a cost to move his contract.

Kostin
- Bigger body and has shown the ability to fight. (fills a different role than Foegele)
- I think the fact that he hasnt produced well in the AHL is a bit of a red flag. When you watch him, you can see the potential though. Ceiling is higher than Foegeles but its hard to say where his floor is. There is also just more risk in Russian players.
- Seems ok defensively to me. But I do wonder if doesnt instill in game what the coaches want in practice.
- Crowd favorite. Sticks up for teammates. Has some swagger.
- Showed more in the playoffs than the other two.
- No value on the PK. He may have some PP value but he isnt getting it with this team.
- Could argue that hes just blocking Holloway (LW3)
- Paying him 2m a year would of allowed a 22 man roster (if Foegele was moved)

Bjugstad
- Big body
- RC fills a role. I would argue that 3C/4C is a bigger hole on this team than LW3 (which Holloway can likely fill)
- More value on the PK than Foegele/Kostin
- Ok defensively. Shown spurts of offense.
- We dont know how well he fit in with the team (hard to know when you're a TDL acquisition)
- Decent floor but not a high ceiling (probably higher than Foegeles)
- Biggest knock for me is, for a guy thats made $30m total, he would rather play on Arizona for an extra 1m a year. Need guys that want to win.
- Paying him 2m a year would of allowed a 22man roster (if Foegele was moved)

I think from an actual roster and cap point of view, Foegele is probably the worst bet. Hes not a 2.75m player at the end of the day. But we dont know if the team could realistically move him or not. Hes liked by his teammates and the Oilers know what they will get from him, which means something. But not sure that he makes us a better team over the other two. I could see him signing more of a team friendly deal next year to stay.

I think Kostin was the riskiest of the three but higher reward. Higher chance that he doesnt replicate what he did (high shooting % combined with no real AHL success). But I think he has more potential than the other two. Fills a different role than Foegele and would of allowed a 22 man roster (which I think is important).

Honestly think Bjugstad makes more sense than both Foegele and Kostin. Fills a role and Holloway can likely replace Foegele/Kostin anyway. But I do question how much he wanted to win so who knows really.

I am not sure that the difference between any of the three really matters though.
Good post. The Janmark/Kostin comparison is apples and oranges.
Foegele is the comparison and while Foegele did have a pretty good year, I would have rather kept the younger Kostin with perhaps some growth potential and the 750K cap space to sign a 4C perhaps than keep Foegele but it was rumored that the leadership group didn't want Foegele traded so it is what it is. I'm fine with it because Foegele was solid last year but personal preference is Kostin.

In any event, as I've mentioned in the past, Holloway will now take on the Kostin role and I see more potential in him as a 2 way player so we'll see how that goes.
 

Fourier

Registered User
Dec 29, 2006
26,636
22,124
Waterloo Ontario
The price of food has skyrocketed, the cost of goods have skyrocketed, the cost of rent has sky rocketed, the wages have remained mainly the same except for unionized workers that have striked for the most part. With all due respect, if the numbers that you are looking at are what the politcians look at to determine if times are good or bad and they think that times are currently good, then no wonder we are f***ed. This was before the fires fwiw, so now we are doubly f***ed. Unemployment is low because of how many people we have drinking off the government tit and staying home because of getting used to being paid to stay home from covid and getting paid, being disabled or having no desire to work. Literally everywhere I go I see help wanted signs, businesses are closing on days that they'd normally be open on or reducing hours due to a lack of workers. If this is the same case in other places of the US it will have an impact on the NHL's revenue even if just a little. The rich are mostly unscathed by the inflation and as you've said can grow their money safely with higher interest rates. Everyone else suffers.
The numbers are the numbers Bryan. They are also taking the fires into account in their predictions. And I agree that they are certainly counter intuitive. But in your own post you actually outline one reason why things are as the numbers say. People have been predicting a serious tightening in the job market for sometime due to the rapid increase in interest rates. Historically, such changes would have killed the demand for workers and we would see a big recession. But this time has been different. The reason being the pandemic, the resulting stimulus and pent-up demand. The latter is a big driver of the numbers I posted. During the pandemic savings rates in North America skyrocketed because people had few outlets to spend their money. Then add in the stimulus and as a result household debt vs GDP dropped rapidly in the US from the peak in Jan 2021 to a value that is now lower than it was pre-pandemic. The pandemic also shut down a fair bit of immigration. Hence demand rose steeply but the number of people who could fill that demand dropped leading to inflation. This also led to higher wages. And not just for unionized employees. It may be different in the US than in Canada, but in Canada the gap between unionized and non-unionized wages has actually shrunk a fair bit in the last few years. That may be changing as more and more unions start to become more proactive. Even with inflation, and partly because of it the economy is still growing in good part because the shortage of labour is keeping people working and hence putting money in peoples pockets

None of this means that there are not going to be lots of people feeling a pinch, or really economic pain. And I don't mean to down play this at all. Even without a recession inflation can bite hard. And yes, it may impact the NHL revenues, but my point is that it is unlikely to make them drop even if it does slow growth modestly. The NHL primary market tends to be fairly affluent. They are still employed and many have more money to spend on discretionary things than they did pre-pandemic.

Wait a sec. In the history of the NHL contraction has occurred multiple times where teams disbanded, never to return again and the league went back to its 6 team format. Multiple times before 1967 the league had more than 6 clubs and had to back to its base strongest clubs and markets. The NHL is not immune from market effects, and we've just seen some of the most salient with the pandemic.
Certainly the NHL has also had more recent times with gate and ticket sale drops. Some of these have been disguised by increases in TV revenue and arena holdings and corollary enterprise etc.

In my last reply I also cited multiple articles discussing how the standard of living has dropped significantly for most people and that the middle class is dying. One needs in such discussion to make distinctions between economic measures and how wealth impact is occurring across classes. In the last while what is occurring more and more is stratification increasing. That the rich and wealthy are making more than ever while Middle America, Middle UK, Canada etc, are making less relative to standard of living and who's qualtiy of life is declining.
With respect to your first paragraph, the reference was to the period since the cap was implemented. The cap is set formulaically from the revenue. Because of that in almost all situations if the cap rises so did revenue and if the cap falls so did revenue. The two exceptions to this rule are transition from 2011-2012 to 2012-2013 and the period from the end of the 2019-2020 season through 2021-2022. In the former case, the cap did drop but not because revenues felt due to some economic downturn. This was a consequence of the new CBA reducing the player's share to 50%. NHL revenues still increased through the financial crisis, though very modestly. Since 2005 the only full year where revenues dropped from the previous year was the 2020-2021 season. And even then, the NHL used this as a driver to make big gains in out of arena revenue which they are continuing to do. The cap has remained flat or nearly so despite rater steep increases in revenue. As such I say again that since 2005 NHL revenues only dropped year over year for one year due to the pandemic.

I don't dispute the core comments you make in your last paragraph. There has been an erosion of the traditional middle class and a redistribution of wealth that favor's those in the upper tiers for quite a few years. Again, ironically part of this might be due to very low interest rates that have made it cheap for businesses to access capitol and have seen big gains in things like stocks, and have led to huge increases in the cost of housing while more traditional investments like GIC's have not even kept up with inflation. But all of that is separate from the potential for the NHL to raise revenue in this environment. Their target audience is not the group most impacted by inflation. Moreover, none of what I said about current real wage growth contradicts your view of the past. What it does show is that somewhat ironically, despite how it feels for a lot of people, there are lots of people whose actual financial situation is better than it was during the so called good times.
 

SupremeTeam16

5-14-6-1
May 31, 2013
8,847
8,781
Baker’s Bay
Woof, atrocious.
Hey, SupremeTeam16, can I go through your phone?

No?

WHAT ARE YOU HIDING
Take it easy guys, I was being sarcastic. I’m all for privacy and people minding their own business.

That said I always try to be as offensive in public as I am in private so I don’t have to hide anything.
 

SupremeTeam16

5-14-6-1
May 31, 2013
8,847
8,781
Baker’s Bay
Good post. The Janmark/Kostin comparison is apples and oranges.
Foegele is the comparison and while Foegele did have a pretty good year, I would have rather kept the younger Kostin with perhaps some growth potential and the 750K cap space to sign a 4C perhaps than keep Foegele but it was rumored that the leadership group didn't want Foegele traded so it is what it is. I'm fine with it because Foegele was solid last year but personal preference is Kostin.

In any event, as I've mentioned in the past, Holloway will now take on the Kostin role and I see more potential in him as a 2 way player so we'll see how that goes.
You’re right that the comparison should be Foegele vs Kostin and in this case I’d probably rather Kostin @ 2 vs Foegele @2.75 (probably rather Bjug @ 2 above either)
But another factor is that with Kostin you’re tied to a player with a very short sample size for two years, which ups the risk for a team so tight to the cap like the Oilers. They can always walk away from Foegele at the end of this year if they choose. Plus if I’m betting on who’s going to have a better season I’d probably put my money on the guy who’s without a deal at the end of this year over the guy who’s got a little more security with a two year deal.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

Registered User
Feb 19, 2003
16,766
18,514
Vancouver
Good post. The Janmark/Kostin comparison is apples and oranges.
Foegele is the comparison and while Foegele did have a pretty good year, I would have rather kept the younger Kostin with perhaps some growth potential and the 750K cap space to sign a 4C perhaps than keep Foegele but it was rumored that the leadership group didn't want Foegele traded so it is what it is. I'm fine with it because Foegele was solid last year but personal preference is Kostin.

In any event, as I've mentioned in the past, Holloway will now take on the Kostin role and I see more potential in him as a 2 way player so we'll see how that goes.
Have long shared this opinion.

I see this come up a few times about rumours of the leadership group not wanting Foegele traded. I've never seen anything to indicate this. Just curious where it comes from. Leadership group also loved Barrie - on-ice and locker room - but accept hard decisions are required to improve the team. I just don't think there's anything that I've seen that gives credibility about Foegele having some sort of leadership group immunity idol.

Though I don't see Holloway as a Kostin proxy player type.
 

Sweetpotato

Registered User
Jan 10, 2014
6,828
4,024
Edmonton
Jarmo should have been fired over this imo.
They wouldn't do it right away but at some point this season he'll be gone. Ain't no way he keeps his job after this and years of mediocrity.

They need to bring in someone who holds clout, someone to legitimize the org and city and attract players.
 

Mr Kot

Registered User
Jan 15, 2022
5,431
12,334
Babcock is a known dickhead and he went into Columbus and started doing his usual dickhead egotist schtick.

Columbus voted for the Leopards Eating People's Face's party and was absolutely shocked when their face got eaten. Surely the leopard would never eat MY face!


I see

Where can I vote for this Leopard party and do they have a branch in ALberta?
 

Bryanbryoil

Pray For Ukraine
Sep 13, 2004
87,548
37,740
The numbers are the numbers Bryan. They are also taking the fires into account in their predictions. And I agree that they are certainly counter intuitive. But in your own post you actually outline one reason why things are as the numbers say. People have been predicting a serious tightening in the job market for sometime due to the rapid increase in interest rates. Historically, such changes would have killed the demand for workers and we would see a big recession. But this time has been different. The reason being the pandemic, the resulting stimulus and pent-up demand. The latter is a big driver of the numbers I posted. During the pandemic savings rates in North America skyrocketed because people had few outlets to spend their money. Then add in the stimulus and as a result household debt vs GDP dropped rapidly in the US from the peak in Jan 2021 to a value that is now lower than it was pre-pandemic. The pandemic also shut down a fair bit of immigration. Hence demand rose steeply but the number of people who could fill that demand dropped leading to inflation. This also led to higher wages. And not just for unionized employees. It may be different in the US than in Canada, but in Canada the gap between unionized and non-unionized wages has actually shrunk a fair bit in the last few years. That may be changing as more and more unions start to become more proactive. Even with inflation, and partly because of it the economy is still growing in good part because the shortage of labour is keeping people working and hence putting money in peoples pockets

None of this means that there are not going to be lots of people feeling a pinch, or really economic pain. And I don't mean to down play this at all. Even without a recession inflation can bite hard. And yes, it may impact the NHL revenues, but my point is that it is unlikely to make them drop even if it does slow growth modestly. The NHL primary market tends to be fairly affluent. They are still employed and many have more money to spend on discretionary things than they did pre-pandemic.


With respect to your first paragraph, the reference was to the period since the cap was implemented. The cap is set formulaically from the revenue. Because of that in almost all situations if the cap rises so did revenue and if the cap falls so did revenue. The two exceptions to this rule are transition from 2011-2012 to 2012-2013 and the period from the end of the 2019-2020 season through 2021-2022. In the former case, the cap did drop but not because revenues felt due to some economic downturn. This was a consequence of the new CBA reducing the player's share to 50%. NHL revenues still increased through the financial crisis, though very modestly. Since 2005 the only full year where revenues dropped from the previous year was the 2020-2021 season. And even then, the NHL used this as a driver to make big gains in out of arena revenue which they are continuing to do. The cap has remained flat or nearly so despite rater steep increases in revenue. As such I say again that since 2005 NHL revenues only dropped year over year for one year due to the pandemic.

I don't dispute the core comments you make in your last paragraph. There has been an erosion of the traditional middle class and a redistribution of wealth that favor's those in the upper tiers for quite a few years. Again, ironically part of this might be due to very low interest rates that have made it cheap for businesses to access capitol and have seen big gains in things like stocks, and have led to huge increases in the cost of housing while more traditional investments like GIC's have not even kept up with inflation. But all of that is separate from the potential for the NHL to raise revenue in this environment. Their target audience is not the group most impacted by inflation. Moreover, none of what I said about current real wage growth contradicts your view of the past. What it does show is that somewhat ironically, despite how it feels for a lot of people, there are lots of people whose actual financial situation is better than it was during the so called good times.
There are not enough workers here and many of the ones that are here in your lower end jobs flat out are not good workers for a multitude of reasons. We're talking people that I wouldn't hire to clean toilets or sweep floors. The wages that go up for the average Joe at best neutralizes inflation here and at worst/more common still sees you taking a step back. You can say that the numbers are the numbers, but the reality is that the cost of inflation is outpacing the average Joe's pay here. If someone gets a $1/hr rase but food costs go up 10% and rent goes up by $300/month, etc. how does this exactly work out? Not to mention if you need to buy a vehicle and the interest rates are higher.

Their predictions fwiw are likely shit. They said that it'd take 5 years for tourism to come back after covid. If there's one thing that you should know about Hawaii it's that our government workers in high positions are often crap at their jobs. Their word on paper is worth less to me than TP.
 
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joestevens29

Registered User
Apr 30, 2009
54,007
17,139
They wouldn't do it right away but at some point this season he'll be gone. Ain't no way he keeps his job after this and years of mediocrity.

They need to bring in someone who holds clout, someone to legitimize the org and city and attract players.
I don't even know who that is at this point.
 

bellagiobob

Registered User
Jul 27, 2006
24,450
60,806
The numbers are the numbers Bryan. They are also taking the fires into account in their predictions. And I agree that they are certainly counter intuitive. But in your own post you actually outline one reason why things are as the numbers say. People have been predicting a serious tightening in the job market for sometime due to the rapid increase in interest rates. Historically, such changes would have killed the demand for workers and we would see a big recession. But this time has been different. The reason being the pandemic, the resulting stimulus and pent-up demand. The latter is a big driver of the numbers I posted. During the pandemic savings rates in North America skyrocketed because people had few outlets to spend their money. Then add in the stimulus and as a result household debt vs GDP dropped rapidly in the US from the peak in Jan 2021 to a value that is now lower than it was pre-pandemic. The pandemic also shut down a fair bit of immigration. Hence demand rose steeply but the number of people who could fill that demand dropped leading to inflation. This also led to higher wages. And not just for unionized employees. It may be different in the US than in Canada, but in Canada the gap between unionized and non-unionized wages has actually shrunk a fair bit in the last few years. That may be changing as more and more unions start to become more proactive. Even with inflation, and partly because of it the economy is still growing in good part because the shortage of labour is keeping people working and hence putting money in peoples pockets

None of this means that there are not going to be lots of people feeling a pinch, or really economic pain. And I don't mean to down play this at all. Even without a recession inflation can bite hard. And yes, it may impact the NHL revenues, but my point is that it is unlikely to make them drop even if it does slow growth modestly. The NHL primary market tends to be fairly affluent. They are still employed and many have more money to spend on discretionary things than they did pre-pandemic.


With respect to your first paragraph, the reference was to the period since the cap was implemented. The cap is set formulaically from the revenue. Because of that in almost all situations if the cap rises so did revenue and if the cap falls so did revenue. The two exceptions to this rule are transition from 2011-2012 to 2012-2013 and the period from the end of the 2019-2020 season through 2021-2022. In the former case, the cap did drop but not because revenues felt due to some economic downturn. This was a consequence of the new CBA reducing the player's share to 50%. NHL revenues still increased through the financial crisis, though very modestly. Since 2005 the only full year where revenues dropped from the previous year was the 2020-2021 season. And even then, the NHL used this as a driver to make big gains in out of arena revenue which they are continuing to do. The cap has remained flat or nearly so despite rater steep increases in revenue. As such I say again that since 2005 NHL revenues only dropped year over year for one year due to the pandemic.

I don't dispute the core comments you make in your last paragraph. There has been an erosion of the traditional middle class and a redistribution of wealth that favor's those in the upper tiers for quite a few years. Again, ironically part of this might be due to very low interest rates that have made it cheap for businesses to access capitol and have seen big gains in things like stocks, and have led to huge increases in the cost of housing while more traditional investments like GIC's have not even kept up with inflation. But all of that is separate from the potential for the NHL to raise revenue in this environment. Their target audience is not the group most impacted by inflation. Moreover, none of what I said about current real wage growth contradicts your view of the past. What it does show is that somewhat ironically, despite how it feels for a lot of people, there are lots of people whose actual financial situation is better than it was during the so called good times.
The real pain is often felt 1+ years after rates start to increase. Something like 8 trillion of low interest rate US govt debt is maturing in the next year, and will need to be reissued at current rates, adding about 300 billion per year in interest payments. Then we will see the trickle down effect to Joe Citizen. How that ends up affecting hockey remains to be seen.
 
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