Rumor: Rumors & Proposals Thread | Lavoie Vs. Pederson Vs. Sutter Vs. Gagner Vs. Caggiula

[CupofOil]

Bouchard wasn't carrying Broberg. Lots of fans and media saw Bouchard struggling pre-ekholm and thought Broberg would be the better player to keep.

Broberg vs Bouchard

Simple poll . If you were the GM of the Oilers who would you trade if you had to trade 1. Brochard will be a point producing machine at his peek Broberg will be a great skating 2 way defender

forums.hfboards.com

Long term projection perhaps but there was no question, absolutely none, that Bouchard was the better player going into last season.

In any event, Broberg will have to take a significant leap to be as good as Bouchard is right now or even the Bouchard of two seasons ago. It could happen, he has pedigree, but as of now he's an empty canvas. He had a real oppounity to take the bull by the horns and claim the #6 spot last preseason competing against the likes of the skating wounded in Murray and former NHL defenseman in Demers amongst other tomato cans and he dropped the ball.

He had a flash or two in season but it wasn't nearly good enough to the point that they called up a former 6th round pick to take the spot which he subsequently did. Injuries did play a part in derailing Broberg's season but that's the other issue, he gets these nagging injuries a lot. He should be further along at this point and I think even Holland thought that he'd be a regular last season and it just happened yet. It's go time, same with Holloway.

 

[McDoused]

Can you elaborate on this statement with some factual representation as to how/why? I don’t recall him being “best Oiler defencemen” for any stretch that he was in the lineup. Perhaps on individual shifts or even for a period or two, but a stretch of games? He has potential to be a very good player, but to say he was the best on a top 6 NHL club, seems a tad hyperbolic. I do agree that pairing him and/or Bouchard with Eckholm has positive potential for their development.

2022-23	Edmonton Oilers	NHL	46	1	7	8	2	6	9	0	0	0	4
2022-23	Bakersfield Condors	AHL	7	2	2	4	0	-2	--	--	--	--	--

It wasnt for very long back back in January he had the best analytics on the team for stretch. I'll yield that it was more about fans hating Nurse, Bouchard and Barrie being tire fires defensively. For example, January 11th Broberg was rocking a 87% CF, 88% SF and XGF% of 91%. He was the "best" defenceman that night.

Heck I even remember Spector saying stupid things like how he not only thought Broberg was going to be better than Chychrun. The fans and media were very high on Broberg. Broberg has been handled very poorly, like Bouchard was previously. The coaching staff plays them 18 minutes one night and then 4 more the next night. You could say the same for Holloway. Their ability to coach and develop rookies has been abysmal. We have a sink or swim mentality because all that matters is winning the game that night which was very short sighted. Both Holloway and Broberg need to be given more opportunity and not have their ass stapled to the bench every time they make a mistake. It sure as hell makes someone play differently when they are afraid to make mistakes instead of going out their and perfecting their game.

Oilers high on young defenceman Philip Broberg

Philip Broberg probably wouldn’t know Jakob Chychrun if he popped up in his soup, but every time there’s a Chychrun-to-the-Edmonton Oilers trade rumour floating aro…

edmontonsun.com

 

[brentashton]

It wasnt for very long back back in January he had the best analytics on the team for stretch. I'll yield that it was more about fans hating Nurse, Bouchard and Barrie being tire fires defensively. For example, January 11th Broberg was rocking a 87% CF, 88% SF and XGF% of 91%. He was the "best" defenceman that night.

Heck I even remember Spector saying stupid things like how he not only thought Broberg was going to be better than Chychrun. The fans and media were very high on Broberg. Broberg has been handled very poorly, like Bouchard was previously. The coaching staff plays them 18 minutes one night and then 4 more the next night. You could say the same for Holloway. Their ability to coach and develop rookies has been abysmal. We have a sink or swim mentality because all that matters is winning the game that night which was very short sighted. Both Holloway and Broberg need to be given more opportunity and not have their ass stapled to the bench every time they make a mistake. It sure as hell makes someone play differently when they are afraid to make mistakes instead of going out their and perfecting their game.

Oilers high on young defenceman Philip Broberg

Philip Broberg probably wouldn’t know Jakob Chychrun if he popped up in his soup, but every time there’s a Chychrun-to-the-Edmonton Oilers trade rumour floating aro…

edmontonsun.com

Ok thanks. So maybe one game. Definitely not a stretch of games.

I can buy that.

 

[Mr Positive]

The player you are describing probably comes with a cap hit of $3-4M at best. The reality is that with the Oilers current cap situation Broberg makes a lot of sense. He was fine last year when his role was suitable for his experience level.

Trading Broberg may well be the right move down the line. And if there was the right package you could do it today but it is very unlikely that this package would be available at this time of year

That last bit is key for me. At the deadline when there is a nice list of sellers I'm all for Broberg being put up for sale if he's not showing some pretty huge progress, assuming that there is that RD right there. Although, I'd say that if Broberg with all his years of control and affordability is for sale I'd want some term on that player, like Ekholm or maybe a sign and trade.

However as of today I have full loyalty to Broberg and I want him to be a top priority of the team, just like what the team did with Bouchard after the Ekholm trade. Bouchard had a rough season up to that point.

Broberg is a huge mystery. His status today is very similar to what Klef was before he broke out. It's hard to judge a young player like Broberg in a men's league where the top scorer on the team has 45 points. Klefbom was also better in the NHL than in the AHL. The AHL isn't just the NHL but on easy mode. It's also a different game. Klefbom had a lot of doubters and even that amazing contract he signed wasn't loved by everyone, and that was after he broke out. It takes a while to trust a young player but these are the core players you win with

 

[McDoused]

Ok thanks. So maybe one game. Definitely not a stretch of games.

I can buy that.

The game before we lost 6-3 but broberg was still on the ice to 2 GF and 0 GA. Same with the game after, 2GF and 0GA and a xGF of 73%. He had a stretch where he was our best 2 way defenceman. Before that Bouchard was bleeding goals against and Barrie was still on the team. Kulak was being relied on to be a top 4 dman. It was a different time.

 

[McDNicks17]

The game before we lost 6-3 but broberg was still on the ice to 2 GF and 0 GA. Same with the game after, 2GF and 0GA and a xGF of 73%. He had a stretch where he was our best 2 way defenceman. Before that Bouchard was bleeding goals against and Barrie was still on the team. Kulak was being relied on to be a top 4 dman. It was a different time.

I don't think it's possible to be the team's best defenseman when they're playing 10 minutes of 5v5 like in that LA game you mentioned.

Maybe best in his role, but an average top pairing guy is still a much better defenseman than a good third pairing guy.

 

[MessierII]

That last bit is key for me. At the deadline when there is a nice list of sellers I'm all for Broberg being put up for sale if he's not showing some pretty huge progress, assuming that there is that RD right there. Although, I'd say that if Broberg with all his years of control and affordability is for sale I'd want some term on that player, like Ekholm or maybe a sign and trade.

However as of today I have full loyalty to Broberg and I want him to be a top priority of the team, just like what the team did with Bouchard after the Ekholm trade. Bouchard had a rough season up to that point.

Broberg is a huge mystery. His status today is very similar to what Klef was before he broke out. It's hard to judge a young player like Broberg in a men's league where the top scorer on the team has 45 points. Klefbom was also better in the NHL than in the AHL. The AHL isn't just the NHL but on easy mode. It's also a different game. Klefbom had a lot of doubters and even that amazing contract he signed wasn't loved by everyone, and that was after he broke out. It takes a while to trust a young player but these are the core players you win with

You weren’t paying attention to Klef back then if that’s what you came away with. By his second season in North America Klef was completely dominant in the AHL. He had 8 points in the first 9 games and went +10. They had no choice but to call him up he was so good. Haven’t seen anything like that from Broberg.

 

[belair]

Ask yourself -- What kept Broberg out of the NHL this past year?
He never got his shot even when Desi was drowning in the playoffs and Woodcroft was desperate to shore up RD.

The same thing that linked Schenn and Gudas to us at the deadline. The Oilers needed a physical presence.

There was no period where Broberg could've been eased into a role in RD with the stakes that high. Desh filled a need around the deadline and the Oilers ran with for better and for worse.

 

[McDoused]

That last bit is key for me. At the deadline when there is a nice list of sellers I'm all for Broberg being put up for sale if he's not showing some pretty huge progress, assuming that there is that RD right there. Although, I'd say that if Broberg with all his years of control and affordability is for sale I'd want some term on that player, like Ekholm or maybe a sign and trade.

However as of today I have full loyalty to Broberg and I want him to be a top priority of the team, just like what the team did with Bouchard after the Ekholm trade. Bouchard had a rough season up to that point.

Broberg is a huge mystery. His status today is very similar to what Klef was before he broke out. It's hard to judge a young player like Broberg in a men's league where the top scorer on the team has 45 points. Klefbom was also better in the NHL than in the AHL. The AHL isn't just the NHL but on easy mode. It's also a different game. Klefbom had a lot of doubters and even that amazing contract he signed wasn't loved by everyone, and that was after he broke out. It takes a while to trust a young player but these are the core players you win with

I couldnt have said it better myself. Best case scenario is that we get Broberg coming in here on a deal contract and contributing as a top 4 defenceman. Even if you have to bring on a depth defenceman at the deadline for insurance you need these younger players to step up if you want to win.

Like look at a team like Colorado. Makar and MacKinnon get most of the credit but if guys like Byram and Nichushkin didnt take step forwards they likely dont win. Unless you cheat the cap like vegas you cant ice a full lineup of highly paid players.

 

[McDoused]

I don't think it's possible to be the team's best defenseman when they're playing 10 minutes of 5v5 like in that LA game you mentioned.

Maybe best in his role, but an average top pairing guy is still a much better defenseman than a good third pairing guy.

Yeah to me its semantics. Darnell Nurse was our best defenceman pre-ekholm and it wasnt even close. I'm just trying to point out that Broberg showed so flashes and show what hes capable of. Either way, not a hill I'm willing to die on so I'm fine saying he showed the potential to be the best defenceman in his role.

I really do see him being mishandled here and being traded away for peanuts only for him to succeed elsewhere. We need patience like when we had Klefbom. Now I dont think he will breakout to be as good but I honestly believe he has top 4 upside as a good skating 2 way puck retrieval defenceman. Insulating him with Ekholm will do wonders for the kid. Like honestly I think he will be as good or better than Fabbro who Ekholm played with in Nashville. Either pump up his value. He will be a good cheap contract that we need or increase his value so we can upgrade that 1RD.

 

[McDNicks17]

Yeah to me its semantics. Darnell Nurse was our best defenceman pre-ekholm and it wasnt even close. I'm just trying to point out that Broberg showed so flashes and show what hes capable of. Either way, not a hill I'm willing to die on so I'm fine saying he showed the potential to be the best defenceman in his role.

I really do see him being mishandled here and being traded away for peanuts only for him to succeed elsewhere. We need patience like when we had Klefbom. Now I dont think he will breakout to be as good but I honestly believe he has top 4 upside as a good skating 2 way puck retrieval defenceman. Insulating him with Ekholm will do wonders for the kid. Like honestly I think he will be as good or better than Fabbro who Ekholm played with in Nashville. Either pump up his value. He will be a good cheap contract that we need or increase his value so we can upgrade that 1RD.

He showed flashes, but it was still in a really limited role. Like that January 11th game against the Ducks, he played against Zegras for 2 mins, Terry for 52 seconds, Henrique for 36 seconds, McTavish for 21 seconds, etc. while having a 92% offensive zone start. Playing well against fourth lines is great, but it's nothing to write home about.

I don't see how he's been mishandled. The blame should be on the player. There's been a gaping hole on that third pairing for him to take and he hasn't come close to taking it.

Kulak can provide a similar insulation on the third pairing, but they haven't even trusted him there. I don't see why throwing him into a much more difficult role would help him.

 

[frag2]

He showed flashes, but it was still in a really limited role. Like that January 11th game against the Ducks, he played against Zegras for 2 mins, Terry for 52 seconds, Henrique for 36 seconds, McTavish for 21 seconds, etc. while having a 92% offensive zone start. Playing well against fourth lines is great, but it's nothing to write home about.

I don't see how he's been mishandled. The blame should be on the player. There's been a gaping hole on that third pairing for him to take and he hasn't come close to taking it.

Kulak can provide a similar insulation on the third pairing, but they haven't even trusted him there. I don't see why throwing him into a much more difficult role would help him.

This. 4 years post draft and if he still can't even lock down a bottom pairing role, that's on the player...just like if our FWD prospects can't beat out Sutter/Gagner

 

[CupofOil]

The game before we lost 6-3 but broberg was still on the ice to 2 GF and 0 GA. Same with the game after, 2GF and 0GA and a xGF of 73%. He had a stretch where he was our best 2 way defenceman. Before that Bouchard was bleeding goals against and Barrie was still on the team. Kulak was being relied on to be a top 4 dman. It was a different time.

He played a very soft minutes role and had a few nice games. You might as well say that Desharnais was the Oilers best Dman for like 10-12 games because his analytics were good if this is the criteria for Oilers best defenseman.

There is no comparison between Bouchard and Broberg. Bouchard has played a key top 4 role on two playoff teams while Broberg had a few nice games in a bottom pairing role in his career. Bouchard had a bad stretch at times last season before Ekholm arrived but he's a far more accomplished player than Broberg. It's not even guaranteed that Broberg will be in the top 6 to start the season or especially at the deadline if the Oilers, rightly, upgrade the defense.

It would be great if Broberg fourished this season and became a top 4 Dman which would solve a lot of problems for the Oilers but that's a major question mark. It's questionable if he even earns a full time bottom pairing role.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

This. 4 years post draft and if he still can't even lock down a bottom pairing role, that's on the player...just like if our FWD prospects can't beat out Sutter/Gagner

100%. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if the cards were stacked against you, you either rise above and push through or you become roadkill.

 

[Anarchism]

Kane/N.Ritchie--McD--Hyman
RNH--Drais--Brown/Foegele
Foegele/Nick--Mcleod--Ryan/Brown
Nick/Foegele--Holloway--Janmark/Two way Gagner

Nurse--Ceci
Ekholm--Bouch
Kulak--Kovy
Desi

Start the season without Nick. Buy him afterwards.
At some point Kane will be injured.
Line up incorporates offense and defense changes. Woodie needs to practice.
Pederson, Lavoie, Nemo, sometimes Gagner and sometimes Janmark to the farm.
Kovy/Desi a 60/40 split. Chose to keep Desi over Broberg.

One of Soup/Ceci problems can be dealt with at the deadline. Ritchie signs <1 mil.
Switch to traditonal zone defense. ONLY McDavid cheats for flying the zone. Stretch passes only from Defensemen.

 

[Anarchism]

100%. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if the cards were stacked against you, you either rise above and push through or you become roadkill.

Yeah...roadkill...that sick empty feeling when they tell you your not good enough and you realize its true....don't suppose you could find another term?

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Yeah to me its semantics. Darnell Nurse was our best defenceman pre-ekholm and it wasnt even close. I'm just trying to point out that Broberg showed so flashes and show what hes capable of. Either way, not a hill I'm willing to die on so I'm fine saying he showed the potential to be the best defenceman in his role.

I really do see him being mishandled here and being traded away for peanuts only for him to succeed elsewhere. We need patience like when we had Klefbom. Now I dont think he will breakout to be as good but I honestly believe he has top 4 upside as a good skating 2 way puck retrieval defenceman. Insulating him with Ekholm will do wonders for the kid. Like honestly I think he will be as good or better than Fabbro who Ekholm played with in Nashville. Either pump up his value. He will be a good cheap contract that we need or increase his value so we can upgrade that 1RD.

Personally I don't see Broberg potentially being mismanaged and flushed for pennies on the dollar. But I can see a prospective scenario where he establishes himself as a viable third pair D on this win now team and is part of a package to upgrade top two pair RD with a veteran finishing piece.

The goal on this win now team is Broberg to establish himself as a everyday third pair with ideally a mid-term runway to grow into a top four d-man as this team's win now phase seeks to extend itself and veteran d's start to age out of prime years. There's very little quality d prospect options in the system so holding onto Bouchard and Broberg would be valuable.

Broberg's shown flashes quickly in his first year, age 20 North American season with early call-up and huge minutes in Vegas on a very depleted Oilers d-corp. Again in the spring with a 20+ minute stretch drive game playing his off-side in Calgary. He had a quality 22-24 minute season in Bakersfield playing all situations.

Carving ice-time on a mature phase is very difficult ... especially for green banana defensemen. Shouldn't be a surprise Woodcroft opted for Desharnais down the stretch drive given the far deeper pro experience and a clearly defined game this team lacked - big crease clearer and cycle breaker who could help PK on another massive area of weakness.

The ability and raw skills are there. It's about a very young d-man improving on his processing speed of NHL game, gaining confidence and assertiveness in his game, and getting some runway on a "Cup or Bust" mature team. He'll either step up into a realistic 3RD role (his off-side) or potentially be a sacrificial piece to a team that can give him more time and patience to put the sum of his game together. There's no skipping steps to jump into a top 4 D role on a Cup contender. Woodcroft's shown to be a conservative coach onboarding young players.

Firmly believe the Oil will be trading for a top 4 RD upgrade. Question will be what the assets and salary pieces will be required.

 

[Anarchism]

Personally I don't see Broberg potentially being mismanaged and flushed for pennies on the dollar. But I can see a prospective scenario where he establishes himself as a viable third pair D on this win now team and is part of a package to upgrade top two pair RD with a veteran finishing piece.

The goal on this win now team is Broberg to establish himself as a everyday third pair with ideally a mid-term runway to grow into a top four d-man as this team's win now phase seeks to extend itself and veteran d's start to age out of prime years. There's very little quality d prospect options in the system so holding onto Bouchard and Broberg would be valuable.

Broberg's shown flashes quickly in his first year, age 20 North American season with early call-up and huge minutes in Vegas on a very depleted Oilers d-corp. Again in the spring with a 20+ minute stretch drive game playing his off-side in Calgary. He had a quality 22-24 minute season in Bakersfield playing all situations.

Carving ice-time on a mature phase is very difficult ... especially for green banana defensemen. Shouldn't be a surprise Woodcroft opted for Desharnais down the stretch drive given the far deeper pro experience and a clearly defined game this team lacked - big crease clearer and cycle breaker who could help PK on another massive area of weakness.

The ability and raw skills are there. It's about a very young d-man improving on his processing speed of NHL game, gaining confidence and assertiveness in his game, and getting some runway on a "Cup or Bust" mature team. He'll either step up into a realistic 3RD role (his off-side) or potentially be a sacrificial piece to a team that can give him more time and patience to put the sum of his game together. There's no skipping steps to jump into a top 4 D role on a Cup contender. Woodcroft's shown to be a conservative coach onboarding young players.

Firmly believe the Oil will be trading for a top 4 RD upgrade. Question will be what the assets and salary pieces will be required.

You do realize if Broberg steps up to the 3RD role you push Desi to 7th and with any advance in the future from the farm ...out the door right? Or do you think Broberg will be able to replace Kulak by the deadline or next year?

 

[Drivesaitl]

Yeah...roadkill...that sick empty feeling when they tell you your not good enough and you realize its true....don't suppose you could find another term?

Car Salesman?

Utility contract salesman?

Ph sales?

When hockey fails all these options and more exist.

I don't cry a ton of tears for pro sports athletes. If you want to you can still play your sport at a lower rung, toil in AHL, play in Europe, these are not bad fates relatively speaking.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

You do realize if Broberg steps up to the 3RD role you push Desi to 7th and with any advance in the future from the farm ...out the door right?

I don't coach or manage the team. This is the speculated path Holland and Woodcroft see for their young pedigree d-man.

I can see the top 4RD upgrade I think they trade for having NHL proven experience and skill set that includes hard defending style in compete areas of the ice and PK role. Desharnais is a solid 7th d-type who can prospectively peak as a third pair D. Broberg's development path is to stabilize his defending ability as a 3 pair D on a Win Now team and grow over time into a top 4 D with experience, maturity (mentally and physically). The potential trajectory is different for these players based on their age and latent potential.

 

[TheNumber4]

Alternative history Oilers. What if the Oilers had gone with Chychrun at the TDL and then Karlsson in this offseason. The prices these two went for should have been obtainable if Holland wanted them. The offers would have been:

Broberg
23 1st
26 2nd

For Chychrun (4.6Mx2)

Barrie (4.5Mx2)
Foegele (2.75Mx1)
Campbell (5Mx4)
24 1st round pick
+ a sweetener cause our 1st round pick will be less valuable than Pittsburgh’s and Campbell is longer bad cap signed (although San Jose needs a goalie anyways)

For Karlsson (11.5Mx4)

Oilers D Core:

Nurse-Karlsson
Chychrun-Bouchard
Kulak-Ceci
Desharnais

Left and right more balanced. Ceci in his optimal spot, should be elite at a 3rd pair. Campbell gone (!). Love Ekholm, but this would have been a decent scenario too.

 

[Anarchism]

Now that Lindholm is potentially off the board, I wonder if Boston refocus' on Scheifele.
If Chevy makes that deal...would he go full rebuild?

Anyone know if its true Pionk will play in Winnipeg cause its close to home but won't play elsewhere in Canada?

 

[aspin3]

This. 4 years post draft and if he still can't even lock down a bottom pairing role, that's on the player...just like if our FWD prospects can't beat out Sutter/Gagner

The interesting thingvis prior to this last year people were writing off Bouchard as a bust as well. Broberg's competition is way higher than at any point for any youbg D on the oilers before this. There isnt one dman from the 2019 draft chosen after Broberg thatvepuld supplant Nurse, Ekholm, Ceci, Bouchard or Kulak. Thats the reality. A young dman unless a superstar is not going to get in the top 4 of the Oil this year but that is ok

Broberg is a risk we shouldn't take. Rookie mistakes, need for insulation, big chance of out right failure. All when we need to solidify our right side D for this playoffs and next -- our best chance to win in the McDavid/Draisaitl era. If we bough out in the first round to LA this coming year ...well you all heard how frustrated Leon was and what he said...
Trade him right now for a guy that is solid defensively and has a bit of upside in some way or another.
4 years from now you will be saying we got no cups but we got this mediocre top 4 D guy that failed during the playoffs 2 years ago. We were close why didn't we trade him for a real D man then.

Let the kid play the first half of the season. Wow...where are you goong to get cap for an upgrade?

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

I also think they need to strive towards winning the division just to avoid playing LA in the first round again. That has been a really tough battle and if they keep meeting the Kings in the playoffs LA is going to break through and win a series eventually. If it’s in the first round that would be a disaster.

I think LA got worse. They will regret that Dubois deal and Kopitar and Doughty are both getting exposed by the passage of time.

 

[Mcnotloilersfan]

Now that Lindholm is potentially off the board, I wonder if Boston refocus' on Scheifele.
If Chevy makes that deal...would he go full rebuild?

Anyone know if its true Pionk will play in Winnipeg cause its close to home but won't play elsewhere in Canada?

Lindholm signing?