Rumor: Rumors & Proposals Thread | Lavoie Vs. Pederson Vs. Sutter Vs. Gagner Vs. Caggiula

[joestevens29]

Like it or not....and ive skated under so many task masters....Woodie is tomorrows coach.
Sounder is discussing but he does have a very deliberate way of presenting his ideas (sometimes blatantly wrong) that grates. Sometimes he is dead on but it so hard to get past 'this is right".

You skated no where

 

[SupremeTeam16]

What? It's the same team.

When we get a new coach in a couple years after a few more early playoff exits does the entire fanbase have to reset as well? Start at 0 with an even keel and forget we haven't won anything for 40 years?


Again, there is a drastic difference in how the sport is played in the regular season vs the playoffs. Are we not in agreement with that?

Perhaps there are strategies and team dynamics/makeups that lend themselves favourably to regular season play, not so much playoff hockey. Would you agree that is a possibility worth looking into lad?

We were discussing Woodcroft, the teams performance previous to him is irrelevant. Weird that you would try to move the goal posts by saying “the team” after the fact, that’s totally unlike you.

My brain isn’t small enough to believe there’s some magic playoff algorithm that facilitates winning, my belief is that winning is a constant moving target and what it takes to win is constantly changing and evolving. Plenty of teams over the last decade have shown there’s lots of ways to win. It used to be you had to be a big heavy team to be successful in the playoffs until Pittsburgh won back to back with a speed kills approach, Colorado dispelled the notion you had to be a strong defensive team to win when they waltzed to a cup giving up 3/4 goals a game. At the end of every year you end up with a group of 5-6 contenders and while strategy comes into play series to series, generally the winner is the team that as a group elevates their level of execution while also getting a bit of luck at the right time of the year.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Like it or not....and ive skated under so many task masters....Woodie is tomorrows coach.
Sounder is discussing but he does have a very deliberate way of presenting his ideas (sometimes blatantly wrong) that grates. Sometimes he is dead on but it so hard to get past 'this is right".

Oh boy, I wonder what obscure beer league those task masters were at

 

[belair]

I am in agreement, and they all drafted and developed at least one, in some cases multiple all star, all time level Norris winning defencemen.

So that's your prerequisite now? How many Connor McDavids did those teams have?

Heck of a lot easier to have a 'Norris calibre' defenseman on a consistently competitive roster. Heck of a lot easier for an Adin Hill to come out of the woodwork on a team that's handily winning the war at 5v5. Heck of a lot easier for third and fourth liners to standout as solid support there, too.

The constant is the organizational depth. Even pre-cap. It even extends beyond the sport.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

Tbh the people that continuously respond instead of just ignoring are just as annoying. Especially when people know he is arguing in bad faith/trolling. No one is going to make any progress.

It's hard to read these boards with three out of every four posts responding to an ignored poster.

Agreed. I was thinking it would be nice to abandon this thread and leave it for them to have their “discussions” but we all know that’s not what they’re after so even if we migrated somewhere else they’d just follow and endlessly pollute that thread as well.

 

[The Nuge]

Lmao, what? The polls forum. 20th best defenceman in the league because he put up 30 something points, half of them on the PP with McDavid and Draisaitl.

Sanderson, as a complete rookie, also put up 30 something points, with much better advanced stats at even strength for the analytics nerds. Corsi, fenwick, not to mention getting harder matchups than Klefbom and to top it all off, way more starts in the defensive zone.

All you have to do is watch the two play and see one is a far more smart, smooth, poised defender who doesn't seem to be playing in slow motion like Klefbom was. He ain't contact anemic either. This is a rookie by the way.

Klefbom has reached mythological status on this board because he was the only half-decent defenceman we had in forever. He ain't that guy. Sanderson will be that guy.

Right… – Reaction GIFs

Does anyone know what Woodcroft’s record is since he’s become an NHL head coach and how it compares to the other teams in the league in that time?

76-32-12. Which is 112 points over 82 games and is competing for the Presidents trophy basically any given season

 

[MessierII]

We're not losing playoff rounds because of the odd mistake they make, playing the style they play has a little risk to it anyway. We're losing because players like Skinner, Nurse, Ceci are not doing their job or failing miserably at it and then Woodcroft not having a clue about playing defence in the playoffs.

No one can win with the D and goaltending the Oilers have right now against teams like Vegas or Colorado.

Do you think prime Gretzky would? Newsflash, he would not. There's too many players on this roster that don't hold up their end of the bargain.

Like no one is asking Nurse to be Pronger, but how about not getting outplayed by Zack Whitecloud in a playoff series when you're paid more than 9 million?

No one is asking Skinner/Campbell to be Vasilevsky, but how about not being worse than a 40 year old goalie who was hurt?

Why do always absolve them of any responsibility all the time? If Mcdavid doesn’t outscored by Klim Kostin and Bjugstad at 5 on 5 we probably have a better playoff run. If Draisaitl wasn’t getting absolutely torched after game 1 we probably beat Vegas. You win when your best players are your best players. Obviously in a finals run everyone steps up at some point but your best players need to consistently outduel the other teams best players and ours didn’t.

 

[UpHere]

I skipped from page 7 to 24 and don't feel as if i've missed anything new

 

[Nunymare]

I skipped from page 7 to 24 and don't feel as if i've missed anything new

That's because we've been having the same conversation in here since May.

 

[Soundwave]

Why do always absolve them of any responsibility all the time? If Mcdavid doesn’t outscored by Klim Kostin and Bjugstad at 5 on 5 we probably have a better playoff run. If Draisaitl wasn’t getting absolutely torched after game 1 we probably beat Vegas. You win when your best players are your best players. Obviously in a finals run everyone steps up at some point but your best players need to consistently outduel the other teams best players and ours didn’t.

McDavid had the most points of any player in the Vegas-Oilers series.

Draisaitl had the most goals in the series despite getting his arm brutally hacked at the end of game 4 because he had been the best player in the series until that point. Clear as day attempt to injure a player that until that point Vegas couldn't stop.

McDavid and Draisaitl scored 59% of the Oilers goals in the Vegas series, Eichel and Marcchessault scored 23% of Vegas' goals. In the entire series the Oilers scored 5 total goals that didn't involve McDavid or Draisaitl, so they were involved in 74% of the team's goals in the series.

And that's with Vegas directing all their defensive energy at them and Adin Hill pulling a Dominik Hasek save percentage out of his butt whereas Jack Eichel and Marchessault were shooting against swiss cheese and the keystone cops defensive unit. I'd say they did their jobs.

If you want to say "well they also need to help play D because no one on our D corps defended and also need to help the goalie because he couldn't save a beach ball" well ... sure OK.

Maybe you can have them sell popcorn in the intermission too.

 

[Soundwave]

And if things don't click, they have no maneuverability because all of the pieces they possess that have positive value are overly high cap hits that belong to players very close to retirement. All of which who have NTCs. They added an elite offensive defenseman when they already had one. San Jose did the exact same following a Finals appearance and they instantly went up in flames.

The Oilers are currently one of the top teams in the West and have done nothing but improve year over year. Making that type of gamble cripples a teams ability to be competitive in the future. Even if things manage to work out in the short term.

Teams like Tampa, Chicago, Washington, St Louis and yes, even Pittsburgh rose to their competitive status by struggling through their stages of development. Many take years to get to the point where their teams had the depth to go on deep playoff runs with consistency.

Had Pittsburgh stumbled on Crosby at the end of a failed rebuild requiring significant restructuring, there's a good chance that those early Cups wouldn't have been possible. Reality is that he was drafted onto a team that already had much of their early core already intact. There were valuable pieces that they could parlay into that 'support' that you talk about.

Fact of the matter is that in this era teams are held within the limitations of their cap realities. Both short and long term. And teams that want to be consistently competitive must maintain some level of maneuverability that's generally determined by the quantity and quality of prospects and secondary support players. When teams make 'the big move' that spends a large quantity of those limited assets and also commits to cap long-term, it shrinks the competitive window.

Why are the Oilers not making big, risky moves? Because they don't have to.

Don't think even Holland believes that last sentence. He's not the brightest bulb in the pack but he knows the team has some critical deficiencies.

The reason we can't make moves like that is in large part because we've tied up a huge portion of our salary cap on regrettable contract mistakes from management going all the way back to the decision to sign Lucic (still paying for him giving us one good season total), large overpay Nurse, and giving Campbell a $5 million dollar contract is like a $10 million cap penalty of unforced errors.

Dubas added what? Karlsson, the Norris trophy winner, and Reilly Smith, a quality forward for what?

A 3rd round pick for Smith (lol) and Erik Karlsson for a bunch of crap and a 2024 1st and 2025 2nd with 1.5 million retained. Nashville would only retain 250k on Ekholm even though we gave them basically two 1sts.

I would say that's pretty good.

 

[belair]

Don't think even Holland believes that last sentence. He's not the brightest bulb in the pack but he knows the team has some critical deficiencies.

The reason we can't make moves like that is in large part because we've tied up a huge portion of our salary cap on regrettable contract mistakes from management going all the way back to the decision to sign Lucic (still paying for him giving us one good season total), overpay Nurse, and give Campbell a $5 million dollar contract is like a $10 million cap penalty of unforced errors.

You're not following.

A Karlsson trade is a massive shape-shifting trade that both mortgages the team's futures and future cap space.

That is a massive long-term risk. And even if the team was in a position to make that type of gamble, it would be ill-advised. It was Pittsburgh's desperate attempt at remaining relevant in a division where their window is rapidly closing.

The Oilers, like every other team in the league will enter the regular season with deficiencies. That's what the regular season is for. To identify the weaknesses that need to be addressed at the trade deadline and beyond.

They didn't need to make significant long-term risks this off-season because there was no question about how they'd do in the regular season. They're already one of the better rosters in the West.

 

[Soundwave]

You're not following.

A Karlsson trade is a massive shape-shifting trade that both mortgages the team's futures and future cap space.

That is a massive long-term risk.

The Oilers, like every other team in the league will enter the regular season with deficiencies. That's what the regular season is for. To identify the weaknesses that need to be addressed at the trade deadline and beyond.

They didn't need to make significant long-term risks this off-season because there was no question about how they'd do in the regular season.

What future?

The Pens are committed to making sure they have a window to compete with Crosby and Malkin and Letang who are at the tail end of their careers for the next 2-3 years minimum.

They are not going to rebuild or even retool. They are not trading those guys.

That is the mandate. The GM is working within those parameters.

He arguably obtained the most talent overall this summer of any team, Reilly Smith and Erik Karlsson would be a massive help to any team in the league and the only big thing he gave up to get both players was a single 1st round pick next season in a draft class that isn't that great looking.

Does Sidney Crosby have any room to complain that he's not getting proper help at this stage of his career? I would say no. They're still working hard even at the tail end of his career to continually bring in tons of talent for him to play with.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

Why do always absolve them of any responsibility all the time? If Mcdavid doesn’t outscored by Klim Kostin and Bjugstad at 5 on 5 we probably have a better playoff run. If Draisaitl wasn’t getting absolutely torched after game 1 we probably beat Vegas. You win when your best players are your best players. Obviously in a finals run everyone steps up at some point but your best players need to consistently outduel the other teams best players and ours didn’t.

I agree. They can likely improve 5v5 results more by focusing on their overall play as opposed to playing a high risk style that results in a lot of chances and points but can also hang their linemates out to dry and cause confusion. If they do a better job of playing within the structure in their own zone then it’ll improve the play of those around them and in turn the play of the goaltenders.

 

[McSuper]

Tbh the people that continuously respond instead of just ignoring are just as annoying. Especially when people know he is arguing in bad faith/trolling. No one is going to make any progress.

It's hard to read these boards with three out of every four posts responding to an ignored poster.

This times 100. The ones that argue when they know the out come are just giving them ammunition. ignore them and they won't have anyone to argue with, We all win!

 

[Soundwave]

I agree. They can likely improve 5v5 results more by focusing on their overall play as opposed to playing a high risk style that results in a lot of chances and points but can also hang their linemates out to dry and cause confusion. If they do a better job of playing within the structure in their own zone then it’ll improve the play of those around them and in turn the play of the goaltenders.

Or maybe the defence can y'know ... learn how to play defence.

And the goalies can stop being this:

High octane offensive players take risks. Gretzky did. Lemieux did. Ovechkin did. Patrick Kane did.

The difference is those guys had a defence that could actually defend once in a while and a goalie that could make a save once in a while.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

What future?

The Pens are committed to making sure they have a window to compete with Crosby and Malkin and Letang who are at the tail end of their careers for the next 2-3 years minimum.

They are not going to rebuild or even retool. They are not trading those guys.

That is the mandate. The GM is working within those parameters.

He arguably obtained the most talent overall this summer of any team, Reilly Smith and Erik Karlsson would be a massive help to any team in the league and the only big thing he gave up to get both players was a single 1st round pick next season in a draft class that isn't that great looking.

Does Sidney Crosby have any room to complain that he's not getting proper help at this stage of his career? I would say no. They're still working hard even at the tail end of his career to continually bring in tons of talent for him to play with.

Today on Soundwave being disingenuous:

karlsson and Reilly were acquired basically a first!

 

[belair]

What future?

The Pens are committed to making sure they have a window to compete with Crosby and Malkin and Letang who are at the tail end of their careers.

They are not going to rebuild or even retool. They are not trading those guys.

That is the mandate. The GM is working within those parameters.

He arguably obtained the most talent overall this summer of any team, Reilly Smith and Erik Karlsson would be a massive help to any team in the league and the only big thing he gave up to get both players was a 1st round pick next season in a draft class that isn't that great looking.

Does Sidney Crosby have any room to complain that he's not getting proper help at this stage of his career? I would say no.

Big flashy trade to secure their spot in the mushy middle. When Karlsson and the rest of their vets inevitably regress, they're in for a 10+ year rebuild. What better way to start that off than being locked to an untradeable contract.

I look forward to watching Karlsson return to the 50ish point guy that's on and off the IR flipping on and off their top PP unit with Letang who was already a solid PPQB option.

Dubas' 'GM style' doesn't play when talking about the Oilers. Moves like that would be idiotic for a team in our position.

 

[Soundwave]

Today on Soundwave being disingenuous:

karlsson and Reilly were acquired basically a first!

The main thing Pittsburgh gave up to get Karlsson was a single 1st and then a 2nd in 2025.

They got Reilly for a 3rd round pick.

I'm waiting for an "aha!" moment here that says they overpaid. That is a steal of a price for both of those players.

Big flashy trade to secure their spot in the mushy middle. When Karlsson and the rest of their vets inevitably regress, they're in for a 10+ year rebuild.

I look forward to watching Karlsson return to the 50ish point guy that's on and off the IR flipping on and off their top PP unit with Letang who was already a solid PPQB option.

Dubas' 'GM style' doesn't play when talking about the Oilers. Moves like that would be idiotic for a team in our position.

Yeah who needs a defenceman that can take over a game even with Connor and Leon on the ice and once took a team to the Conference Finals on his shoulders, I know I'd rather be paying Lucic/Neal 2 mill, Nurse 2.5 million over his worth, and Campbell 5 million instead to do dick all in playoff rounds.

The last time the Oilers made a "flashy" summer trade for two players that good?

Well they were in a Cup final the next spring as I recall.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

The main thing Pittsburgh gave up to get Karlsson was a single 1st and then a 2nd in 2025.

They got Reilly for a 3rd round pick.

I'm waiting for an "aha!" moment here that says they overpaid. That is a steal of a price for both of those players.



Yeah who needs a defenceman that can take over a game even with Connor and Leon on the ice and once took a team to the Conference Finals on his shoulders, I know I'd rather be paying Lucic/Neal 2 mill, Nurse 2.5 million over his worth, and Campbell 5 million instead to do dick all in playoff rounds.

I don’t really give a shit for your aha moment. Don’t act like the Penguins only had to give up a first in the deal. You can say it was a good deal, that’s fine.

But then again, you did claim Adin Hill had a better save percentage than Stuart Skinner but omitted it was by 0.01%. And that he played 27 games. And then you just dipped when that was brought up.

We get it man. You hate the team. They’ll never win. Maybe take a walk.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

Big flashy trade to secure their spot in the mushy middle. When Karlsson and the rest of their vets inevitably regress, they're in for a 10+ year rebuild. What better way to start that off than being locked to an untradeable contract.

I look forward to watching Karlsson return to the 50ish point guy that's on and off the IR flipping on and off their top PP unit with Letang who was already a solid PPQB option.

Dubas' 'GM style' doesn't play when talking about the Oilers. Moves like that would be idiotic for a team in our position.

Yeah exactly, they’re gonna be first round fodder for a year or two and then it’s gonna be scorched earth.

Great plan

 

[Soundwave]

I don’t really give a shit for your aha moment. Don’t act like the Penguins only had to give up a first in the deal. You can say it was a good deal, that’s fine.

But then again, you did claim Adin Hill had a better save percentage than Stuart Skinner but omitted it was by 0.01%. And that he played 27 games. And then you just dipped when that was brought up.

We get it man. You hate the team. They’ll never win. Maybe take a walk.

And what was Adin Hill's save percentage versus Stuart Skinner's in the playoffs? Was it around 0.01% difference? Would you care to list it?

I hate the blue line and the goaltending, sure.

Not because I'm irrational. Because they are stopping us from winning.

The goal is to win, they are the biggest barrier in terms of us winning. If you gave this version of Connor + Leon the same defence + goaltending even from 2017 they might win a Cup, but this group nah. Skinner/Campbell cannot even carry Talbot's jock strap from that year.

If we had this version of Skinner/Campbell in net in 2017 we lose to San Jose, probably in like 5 games. We've played in 5 playoffs rounds in the last two years and gotten better than .900 goaltending in ONE of the 5 series (that was the first of the 5 series versus LA in 2022). Is that good? That normal for a contender? No it most certainly is not, it's f***ing brutal is what it is.

 

[GOilers88]

What a coincidence that half their roster had massive, massive overperformance when they bought in to how Sutter wanted them to play and accepted being pushed beyond their comfort zone.

It's almost like a dude who took the least talented roster to a Cup Finals in the last 30 years and won 2 other Cups might actually know what he's talking about even if he's not pleasant or the fun babysitter.

A lot of players say they want to win, but really not many of them actually really, really need to win. It's a nice to have. Not a must have for a lot of guys.

Sure they had a good year and got bounced in the 2nd round. Then half the team went public and said they wanted out. Why does this sound like a good option to you?

 

[SupremeTeam16]

I honestly love it in here right now. It’s like when idiot protesters glue themselves to the road and scream about their cause while the general public take turns unleashing on them and or just laughing at them.

 

[belair]

The main thing Pittsburgh gave up to get Karlsson was a single 1st and then a 2nd in 2025.

They got Reilly for a 3rd round pick.

I'm waiting for an "aha!" moment here that says they overpaid. That is a steal of a price for both of those players.

They paid a 2nd just get Montreal to take a retained Jeff Petry, who was a healthy 2nd pairing defenseman.

I could care less about the value they got. For the players. They took on a crippling, immovable contract with hopes they could squeeze out a last run.

Yeah who needs a defenceman that can take over a game even with Connor and Leon on the ice and once took a team to the Conference Finals on his shoulders, I know I'd rather be paying Lucic/Neal 2 mill, Nurse 2.5 million over his worth, and Campbell 5 million instead to do dick all in playoff rounds.

The last time the Oilers made a "flashy" summer trade for two players that good?

Well they were in a Cup final the next spring as I recall.

Yeah, after watching the team struggle at 5v5 in the playoffs, the simple answer is a firewagon D that locks up $10m in cap leading into the years after the Draisaitl and McDavid extensions.

That trade would single-handedly see both of them signing elsewhere if it didn't immediately result in a Championship from a paper thin roster.