Rumor: Rumors & Proposals Thread | Lavoie Vs. Pederson Vs. Sutter Vs. Gagner Vs. Caggiula

[Soundwave]

Not trying to be a dick but to doesn’t seem like theres much enjoyment behind your fandom anymore.

Like shit happens, people mess up, things don’t always go the way we hope. The chicken little act gets old man.

He makes 9 million dollars when he has no business making that, he can take the criticism.

This isn't like San Diego where no one cares about NHL hockey, this is Edmonton.

If you're a Laker in LA who's playing well below their contract in a basketball city like that, welp you can either raise your game or develop thick skin, and those are your two options. That's how it goes, Edmonton is a big hockey market, if you want the big contract, you better live up to it. No excuses, no crying after the fact that people are being "meanies". Suck it up buttercup.

 

[duul]

Matt Duchene wouldn't have fit under the cap at $3M.

I know. Do you think that makes it O.K. for us to spend 4 million on a far inferior player? Because we had nobody else to dance with? We could have just as easily stood pat and not added a 4 million dollar RWer whose role can essentially be filled by anyone, considering we have Hyman at RW already. In times like that you do not destroy your future cap to fit in a third line quality winger -- you look to your well of prospects and internal development or you look for a trade.

Dubas just moved out a ton of people to acquire the best D in the league, one of them anyway. He is what modern GMing should look like with strategies aplenty and anything is possible attitude. Holland is a dinosaur who can not think two steps ahead, and who is incapable of creating intricate deals and plans to get the players we need to win. He has done here what he has always done in his GMing career which is overpay for players in free agency. It worked in Detroit because there wasn't a salary cap. He has been fried since it was implemented.

 

[TheNumber4]

The early Captain's Skates seem like Connor saying "Woody ran a candy ass training camp last year that set the team off on the wrong foot, so if he's not going to do a good camp, I'm taking it into my own hands".

McDavid made a comment during last year's preseason that he wasn't thrilled with lack of intensity in practices during pre and early season last year.

Woody was running a summer fun camp.

I don’t remember that McDavid comment, but sure maybe. Woody seems like he’s pretty professional and efficient with the teams’ time though in a general sense. Haven’t heard too much complaints about his intensity.

 

[Soundwave]

I don’t remember that McDavid comment, but sure maybe. Woody seems like he’s pretty professional and efficient with the teams’ time though in a general sense. Haven’t heard too much complaints about his intensity.

I think they bombed the Calgary and Buffalo games early last year and finally Woodcroft had a practise with a lot of battle drills in it and McDavid was basically like "finally, it was good to have a hard practise for a change". The preseason and early season prep was a joke, not surprised Connor is taking things into his own hands this year.

 

[Soundwave]

Probably a good idea to agitate basically everyone on the roster right as major contracts are coming due. Wise.

McDavid and Draisaitl could be just like Gaudreau and Tkachuk! Odd that those two weren't enthusiastic about staying there with such strong coaching....

I'd like to think McDavid and Draisaitl want a Cup so bad that they will put up with harsh coaching if that's what it takes.

Gaudreau can cry about it all he wants now, but that was by a country mile the best season of hockey he's ever played in his life on both ends of the ice. 115 points and a whopping +64. A +64 is a higher rating than any year in Mario Lemieux's career, that's an absurd stat.

He may not be always pleasant, it won't always be fun, but there's no question IMO he will push you to another level if you buy in and give an effort.

 

[K1984]

I'd like to think McDavid and Draisaitl want a Cup so bad that they will put up with harsh coaching if that's what it takes.

Gaudreau can cry about it all he wants now, but that was by a country mile the best season of hockey he's ever played in his life on both ends of the ice. 115 points and a whopping +64.

And then he went ahead and ran for the hills.

 

[TheNumber4]

I know. Do you think that makes it O.K. for us to spend 4 million on a far inferior player? Because we had nobody else to dance with? We could have just as easily stood pat and not added a 4 million dollar RWer whose role can essentially be filled by anyone, considering we have Hyman at RW already. In times like that you do not destroy your future cap to fit in a third line quality winger -- you look to your well of prospects and internal development or you look for a trade.

Dubas just moved out a ton of people to acquire the best D in the league, one of them anyway. He is what modern GMing should look like with strategies aplenty and anything is possible attitude. Holland is a dinosaur who can not think two steps ahead, and who is incapable of creating intricate deals and plans to get the players we need to win. He has done here what he has always done in his GMing career which is overpay for players in free agency. It worked in Detroit because there wasn't a salary cap. He has been fried since it was implemented.

We needed to walk away from Yamo (RW) and Kostin (RW) cause we just plain couldn’t afford their caps. Going into the season with a weakened RW when it was already a position of weakness wouldn’t have sat well with anyone on the team or fanbase. We are in our Cup Window, can’t be wasting a year hoping for more Wright picks to try and fail at filling the position. Brown was a UNIQUE and RARE contract situation to allow us to fit a legit RWer in for THIS year. And you haven’t provided any alternatives that would have helped THIS year.

I was wondering if Brown had been overpaid. But listening to Serravelli and Brown interviews it’s pretty obvious that Brown had many options. Options with term too. So the market probably did deem his value to be fair at what the Oilers got him for.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Again I just think it's unfair to say there's a book on young goalies like Oettinger and Skinner. Otter had an amazing first run the year prior and struggled this year. Guys like Vasi and Bob have years and years of experience to draw from, but even to that end, Bob has hardly been a guy you look at over the last few years and think "yeah, Cup quality goalie." He also fell apart once they hit the Cup Finals. Vasi didn't just walk on as a rookie and run the tables either. Not to mention he's one of the top, premier goalies of the last 10 years so I still don't think it's a fair comparison, let alone with the team he has and had in front of him.

Hill had a great run this year, but again Oettinger did the same thing the year prior and look how that carried over. He could very easily have a down year next year and suddenly the whole narrative around him looks identical to Oettinger. I think it's way too easy to point at Skinners limited sample and think that's what he is forever.

Thats all fair. But its also premature to anoint Skinner as a proven starter and those comments are also out there.

Oettinger contribution in Dallas need be considered in relation to a club that sports one of the best D squads in the NHL typically. Oats gives up what he does despite that.

In anycase I compared to Adin Hill who ran his game from the start, the moment he got tapped in playoffs and never looked back. But Adin Hill was successful due to how he played goal within a Vegas system. It was a good match. Meanwhile Brossoit with all kinds of experience and the inside track on the job played tentative, nervous, and looked smaller than he is in net. That stuff doesn't play in the playoffs.

This is just a humorous point but Skinner tossing his hair back the way he does and his pregame start stuff, seems like he emulates Smith a lot, probably has a lot of respect for him. But once the game starts he sure doesn't look like him.

 

[Soundwave]

And then he went ahead and ran for the hills.

Greatness is not for everyone.

There is a price to be paid.

 

[duul]

Thats all fair. But its also premature to anoint Skinner as a proven starter and those comments are also out there.

Oettinger contribution in Dallas need be considered in relation to a club that sports one of the best D squads in the NHL typically. Oats gives up what he does despite that.

In anycase I compared to Adin Hill who ran his game from the start, the moment he got tapped in playoffs and never looked back. But Adin Hill was successful due to how he played goal within a Vegas system. It was a good match. Meanwhile Brossoit with all kinds of experience and the inside track on the job played tentative, nervous, and looked smaller than he is in net. That stuff doesn't play in the playoffs.

This is just a humorous point but Skinner tossing his hair back the way he does and his pregame start stuff, seems like he emulates Smith a lot, probably has a lot of respect for him. But once the game starts he sure doesn't look like him.

Yep, funnily enough if you look back to all of the great goaltenders ever. We're talking Hasek, Roy, Luongo, Belfour, Fuhr, even the guy with the highest peak in playoff history in Tim Thomas, what they all had in common was immense confidence and outward personalities.

I can only think of Price from memory as a guy who somehow stole the show in net while being a pretty clearly mentally troubled and anxious individual.

The fact of the matter is when a guy like Campbell or Skinner shrugs their shoulders or stares down at the ice after they let in a stinker, the entire bench is warped. Most of us played hockey, doesn't matter which level -- when you know your goalie is prone to losing you a game by themselves, it ruins morale.

Adin Hill stepped in from one of these Edmonton raised goalies who would bow his head after every failure and from the get-go was after it. Yelling, battling after whistles, yelling. This guy was dialed in and confident.

The best goaltending we've got here since God knows when has been Mike Smith at 40 years old, another loud and confident type. What does that tell you? Maybe it tells you signing a mentally ruinous man to a 5x5 is a poor quality decision. And I'm not buying Skinner's pseudostoicism act either.

 

[belair]

I know. Do you think that makes it O.K. for us to spend 4 million on a far inferior player? Because we had nobody else to dance with? We could have just as easily stood pat and not added a 4 million dollar RWer whose role can essentially be filled by anyone, considering we have Hyman at RW already. In times like that you do not destroy your future cap to fit in a third line quality winger -- you look to your well of prospects and internal development or you look for a trade.

Anyone? If he's anywhere close to the player he was in Ottawa, that's a second line quality forward capable of filling multiple roles at both even strength and in special teams.

You continue to undervalue the player for who he is because you're so fixated on a small blip in the cap next season. So much so that you continue ignoring that this player is costing us $775k on this year's cap.

Dubas just moved out a ton of people to acquire the best D in the league, one of them anyway. He is what modern GMing should look like with strategies aplenty and anything is possible attitude. Holland is a dinosaur who can not think two steps ahead, and who is incapable of creating intricate deals and plans to get the players we need to win. He has done here what he has always done in his GMing career which is overpay for players in free agency. It worked in Detroit because there wasn't a salary cap. He has been fried since it was implemented.

Dubas just spent the majority of the remaining futures of one of the most spent franchises in the league to acquire a player that doesn't fit their immediate needs, both short and long term.

Your 'modern GM' is an idiot that doesn't value a team's ability to improve if their one long shot gamble doesn't immediately pay dividends.

Erik Karlsson is a 33 year old defenseman with a lot of miles and multiple surgeries throughout his playing career. He's known for playing a firewagon, rope-a-dope game that serves to benefit his personal production. And the potential of that game regressing in the coming years is significant.

Pittsburgh was a team that missed the playoffs last season and has seen their team slip from the competitive team they once were. While Edmonton is a team that has consistently improved to the point where it's one of the few teams most people consider as A-list Cup contenders. There's a reason why one of those teams would make that type of gamble, while the other would choose to be risk averse.

 

[Soundwave]

Anyone? If he's anywhere close to the player he was in Ottawa, that's a second line quality forward capable of filling multiple roles at both even strength and in special teams.

You continue to undervalue the player for who he is because you're so fixated on a small blip in the cap next season. So much so that you continue ignoring that this player is costing us $775k on this year's cap.

Dubas just spent the majority of the remaining futures of one of the most spent franchises in the league to acquire a player that doesn't fit their immediate needs, both short and long term.

Your 'modern GM' is an idiot that doesn't value a team's ability to improve if their one long shot gamble doesn't immediately pay dividends.

Erik Karlsson is a 33 year old defenseman with a lot of miles and multiple surgeries throughout his playing career. He's known for playing a firewagon, rope-a-dope game that serves to benefit his personal production. And the potential of that game regressing in the coming years is significant.

Pittsburgh was a team that missed the playoffs last season and has seen their team slip from the competitive team they once were. While Edmonton is a team that has consistently improved to the point where it's one of the few teams most people consider as A-list Cup contenders. There's a reason why one of those teams would make that type of gamble, while the other would choose to be risk averse.

Karlsson at least gives Pittsburgh a shot of a run in the playoffs if things click.

They aren't trading Crosby or Malkin, that's not a "GM decision" that's a "the owner says f*** no you're not doing that" decision. Getting Karlsson for peanuts is an entirely reasonable move.

Maybe there is enough in the tank between those three and if they get a hot goalie they can eek out of the Eastern Conference playoffs leaning hard on their experience.

At least that's an organization that shows it has an obligation to give its stars help and is willing to make big moves to do that consistently throughout Crosby's career.

Can't say the same about the Oilers. This organization acts like they should be given a trophy for acquiring a no.2 D and then sit around and act like McDavid and Draisaitl can materialize a Cup out of thin air with massive holes on the team's back end and no help from the goalie.

 

[K1984]

Greatness is not for everyone.

There is a price to be paid.

All I can do is laugh at this point.

Yep, funnily enough if you look back to all of the great goaltenders ever. We're talking Hasek, Roy, Luongo, Belfour, Fuhr, even the guy with the highest peak in playoff history in Tim Thomas, what they all had in common was immense confidence and outward personalities.

I can only think of Price from memory as a guy who somehow stole the show in net while being a pretty clearly mentally troubled and anxious individual.

The fact of the matter is when a guy like Campbell or Skinner shrugs their shoulders or stares down at the ice after they let in a stinker, the entire bench is warped. Most of us played hockey, doesn't matter which level -- when you know your goalie is prone to losing you a game by themselves, it ruins morale.

Adin Hill stepped in from one of these Edmonton raised goalies who would bow his head after every failure and from the get-go was after it. Yelling, battling after whistles, yelling. This guy was dialed in and confident.

The best goaltending we've got here since God knows when has been Mike Smith at 40 years old, another loud and confident type. What does that tell you? Maybe it tells you signing a mentally ruinous man to a 5x5 is a poor quality decision. And I'm not buying Skinner's pseudostoicism act either.

Clearly you aren't at all familiar with Fuhr whatsoever.

 

[duul]

Anyone? If he's anywhere close to the player he was in Ottawa, that's a second line quality forward capable of filling multiple roles at both even strength and in special teams.

You continue to undervalue the player for who he is because you're so fixated on a small blip in the cap next season. So much so that you continue ignoring that this player is costing us $775k on this year's cap.

Dubas just spent the majority of the remaining futures of one of the most spent franchises in the league to acquire a player that doesn't fit their immediate needs, both short and long term.

Your 'modern GM' is an idiot that doesn't value a team's ability to improve if their one long shot gamble doesn't immediately pay dividends.

Erik Karlsson is a 33 year old defenseman with a lot of miles and multiple surgeries throughout his playing career. He's known for playing a firewagon, rope-a-dope game that serves to benefit his personal production. And the potential of that game regressing in the coming years is significant.

Pittsburgh was a team that missed the playoffs last season and has seen their team slip from the competitive team they once were. While Edmonton is a team that has consistently improved to the point where it's one of the few teams most people consider as A-list Cup contenders. There's a reason why one of those teams would make that type of gamble, while the other would choose to be risk averse.

McDavid just put up 154 points and Draisaitl 130+ with Yamamoto playing with one of them. Guy put up 25 points in 58 games and is playing for 1.5 mil a year now. If Brown tops his career best, as in beats the most points he ever has at 45, that's 20 points gained over Yamamoto (who only played 50 games) for 2.5 million EXTRA on the cap, again, in the least important position in the sport, on a team that already has Hyman, Kane, RNH all playing wing. Brown was the definition of a 'luxury' addition you'd add when you for some reason have cap space and no other holes available.

Literally the last place we should have been trying to upgrade. I laughed when Holland said we will be starting the year with the same 7 D who ended last year. Wonder if we'll run 11-7 again, wouldn't that be something.

 

[Soundwave]

All I can do is laugh at this point.

Do you realize how incredible a +64 season is? Like Lemieux, Crosby, ahem McDavid, never have done that. Gretzky did it like 3 times on an All-Star team in the 80s when you could score a goal just by thinking about it.

Maybe it's just me, but unless that coach is like torturing a kitten in practise, he probably deserves some buy-in for getting you to that kind of a level in play, that season from Gaudreau was unheard of, and what does that locker room do?

Go crying to mommy. How was Columbus this year Johnny? He should be embarrassed by his play last year.

Great players accept hard coaching. Even Gaudreau's dad said it, Johnny plays his best with a hard ass coach, we'll see if Babcock can get Frodo to work.

 

[K1984]

McDavid just put up 154 points and Draisaitl 130+ with Yamamoto playing with one of them. Guy put up 25 points in 58 games and is playing for 1.5 mil a year now. If Brown tops his career best, as in beats the most points he ever has at 45, that's 20 points gained over Yamamoto (who only played 50 games) for 2.5 million EXTRA on the cap, again, in the least important position in the sport, on a team that already has Hyman, Kane, RNH all playing wing. Brown was the definition of a 'luxury' addition you'd add when you for some reason have cap space and no other holes available.

Literally the last place we should have been trying to upgrade. I laughed when Holland said we will be starting the year with the same 7 D who ended last year. Wonder if we'll run 11-7 again, wouldn't that be something.

Yamamoto being absolutely useless was also a major contributing factor to losing to Vegas despite still playing with McDavid and Drai.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Yep, funnily enough if you look back to all of the great goaltenders ever. We're talking Hasek, Roy, Luongo, Belfour, Fuhr, even the guy with the highest peak in playoff history in Tim Thomas, what they all had in common was immense confidence and outward personalities.

I can only think of Price from memory as a guy who somehow stole the show in net while being a pretty clearly mentally troubled and anxious individual.

The fact of the matter is when a guy like Campbell or Skinner shrugs their shoulders or stares down at the ice after they let in a stinker, the entire bench is warped. Most of us played hockey, doesn't matter which level -- when you know your goalie is prone to losing you a game by themselves, it ruins morale.

Adin Hill stepped in from one of these Edmonton raised goalies who would bow his head after every failure and from the get-go was after it. Yelling, battling after whistles, yelling. This guy was dialed in and confident.

The best goaltending we've got here since God knows when has been Mike Smith at 40 years old, another loud and confident type. What does that tell you? Maybe it tells you signing a mentally ruinous man to a 5x5 is a poor quality decision. And I'm not buying Skinner's pseudostoicism act either.

Yep. Not many will agree with you but I don't see one thing wrong in your post. The mental aspects and confidence shows itself. Brossoit never had it.

The trouble with modern era hockey decisions is too much put on analytics and less on who the person behind the mask is. Guys like Al Arbour and Freddy Shero beat the curve constantly because they would look at who players are. Who was inside.

Arbour is from Sudbury area, a place that looks and feels like the end of the Earth. Replete with rough and tumble guys like Al Arbour and Eddie Shack. You don't create those individuals with drills, education, or experience. Its the moxy they have inside that follows them anywhere and into any endeavor. I look at a guy like Brossoit and wonder how the meek get into pro sports in present day. Look at Skinner unshaved and he looks like he could be in highschool. These are not tough dudes, never have been, and eventually it shows.

Pseudostoicism lol. Yeah. agreed with that too. Skinner is smart enough to know what he's supposed to look like and lathers that look on. I don't buy it when he shrivels up in around half a dozen of his playoff starts.

 

[K1984]

Do you realize how incredible a +64 season is? Like Lemieux, Crosby, ahem McDavid, never have done that. Gretzky did it like 3 times on an All-Star team in the 80s when you could score a goal just by thinking about it.

Maybe it's just me, but unless that coach is like torturing a kitten in practise, he probably deserves some buy-in for getting you to that kind of a level in play, that season from Gaudreau was unheard of, and what does that locker room do?

Go crying to mommy. How was Columbus this year Johnny? He should be embarrassed by his play last year.

Great players accept hard coaching. Even Gaudreau's dad said it, Johnny plays his best with a hard ass coach, we'll see if Babcock can get Frodo to work.

Life is easy making the calls from the cheap seats.

 

[Drivesaitl]

All I can do is laugh at this point.



Clearly you aren't at all familiar with Fuhr whatsoever.

More and more you're becoming just a dismissive type of poster.

Whats the point of even saying the bolded in a discussion board? feel better?

Holy condescending.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Its interesting.
Posters argue that Nurse is a #1 dman and yet he cant do what virtually every #1 dman can do...carry an inferior partner and make him better.

Would Nurse have been able to make Bouchard a better player in the same way that Ekholm did?
The answer is obviously No.

The reality is of course that Nurse is a # 2 dman at best and doesnt have the ability to carry an inferior D partner. Now I am not saying that you are suggesting that Nurse is a #1 dman but he clearly needs a top quality partner. For $9.25M that shouldnt be the case but yet here we are.
So Nurse is not providing full value for his contract and likely never will and that hurts this team because it means less money to find a player that can provide top 4 minutes to help make Nurse a better player.

Ironically Nurse was at his best with Bear as his partner.

But man Vegas did to the Nurse/Ceci pairing what McDrai did to Rasmus Anderson last year.

Nurse is fine, but that's just it. He doesn't seem to elevate his partner or even himself during key situations.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

More and more you're becoming just a dismissive type of poster.

Whats the point of even saying the bolded in a discussion board? feel better?

Holy condescending.

Considering Soundwave regurgitates the same argument 100 times in every thread, it gets tiring, he’s so busy trying to convince everyone he’s the smartest in the room

 

[Drivesaitl]

Sutter doesn't play a system. He has a religion, where he is God and Jesus and Mary and Joesph.

You play his way or your life will become a living hell. No negotiating. No compromises. No nothing. And even if you win, don't expect it to be light in the locker room afterwards, dude will be up your ass for a mistake you made in the 2nd period and point it out in the video session to embarrass you infront of everyone. That's Sutter.

There's like 2 or 3 guys like that in the world. Jay Woodcroft? Dude is a boy scout, he ain't telling Darnell Nurse or anyone else how to do shit. Dude has the balls to bench one player and it was a rookie Holloway, lulz. Woody will be bringing Rice Krispies squares to day 1 of camp for the guys.

Very few people here seem to have this take. Could anybody imagine being in a room with Woody and he's trying to read the riot act. I'd break out laughing. NOTHING in his demeanor demands attention. I can't see him being the one to get great players to dig deeper on D play unless they themselves are committed to doing that.

Woody is a good times poser. He isn't a coach that will get or demand the last drop from players.

That said Woody despite his soft demeanor still parks some players under the bus. He plays favorites like anybody else, just that some of his choices are strange.

Considering Soundwave regurgitates the same argument 100 times in every thread, it gets tiring, he’s so busy trying to convince everyone he’s the smartest in the room

Thats fine. I'll pushback when I see posters here that are being more and more dismissive.

This is a discussion board. Soundwave is discussing. Whether one likes what he's saying or not.

 

[Soundwave]

Life is easy making the calls from the cheap seats.

Maybe but the results are plain for everyone to see

Not everyone needs to be a truly great player. No one needs it actually. The sun will rise either way.

Whether you become 100% of your potential is based on how bad you want it and what you're willing to do to get it.

Gaudreau

A) 20-21: 56GP, 19 goals, 48 points +2 (70 points pro-rated), team missed playoffs
B) 21-22 (w/Sutter): 82GP, 40 goals, 115 points +64, team finished no.1 in division
C) 22-23 (no Sutter again): 80GP, 20 goals, 74 points -33, team missed playoffs

He's capable of B, he just doesn't want it bad enough to do it all the time. And that's fine. It's hard to be B. It's a lot easier to be an A or C. Cheques get cashed either way.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Maybe but the results are plain for everyone to see

Not everyone needs to be a truly great player. No one needs it actually. The sun will rise either way.

Whether you become 100% of your potential is based on how bad you want it and what you're willing to do to get it.

Gaudreau

A) 20-21: 56GP, 19 goals, 48 points +2 (70 points pro-rated), team missed playoffs
B) 21-22 (w/Sutter): 82GP, 40 goals, 115 points +64, team finished no.1 in division
C) 22-23 (no Sutter again): 80GP, 20 goals, 74 points -33, team missed playoffs

He's capable of B, he just doesn't want it bad enough to do it all the time. And that's fine. It's hard to be B. It's a lot easier to be an A or C.

Or B was an outlier season/Career year.

 

[Soundwave]

Very few people here seem to have this take. Could anybody imagine being in a room with Woody and he's trying to read the riot act. I'd break out laughing. NOTHING in his demeanor demands attention. I can't see him being the one to get great players to dig deeper on D play unless they themselves are committed to doing that.

Woody is a good times poser. He isn't a coach that will get or demand the last drop from players.

That said Woody despite his soft demeanor still parks some players under the bus. He plays favorites like anybody else, just that some of his choices are strange.


Thats fine. I'll pushback when I see posters here that are being more and more dismissive.

This is a discussion board. Soundwave is discussing. Whether one likes what he's saying or not.

Woody's benched 2 players in his coaching career, Holloway, a rookie, and the Russian guy who doesn't speak English so he can't say anything back, lol.