Rumor: Rumors & Proposals Thread | Lavoie Vs. Pederson Vs. Sutter Vs. Gagner Vs. Caggiula

[Tad Mikowsky]

Considering Soundwave regurgitates the same argument 100 times in every thread, it gets tiring, he’s so busy trying to convince everyone he’s the smartest in the room

60k posts. It’s like a job for this guy

 

[Soundwave]

Or B was an outlier season/Career year.

What a coincidence that half their roster had massive, massive overperformance when they bought in to how Sutter wanted them to play and accepted being pushed beyond their comfort zone.

It's almost like a dude who took the least talented roster to a Cup Finals in the last 30 years and won 2 other Cups might actually know what he's talking about even if he's not pleasant or the fun babysitter.

A lot of players say they want to win, but really not many of them actually really, really need to win. It's a nice to have. Not a must have for a lot of guys.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Woody's benched 2 players in his coaching career, Holloway, a rookie, and the Russian guy who doesn't speak English so he can't say anything back, lol.

Interestingly both players are the variety I was talking about. Guys that bring the fire and passion in hockey. Woody himself not having an aggressive bone in his body one wonders if the value of the same, within the violent sport of hockey, even occurs to him.

I've made the quip before but Woody could have an Eddie Shack in prime type player and I wonder how much he'd use him. "Oh Eddie you made a mistake and a GA got scored.

Eddie Shack: Go f*** yourself!


I'm just reading a biography on Shack so he's in my head. lol

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

60k posts. It’s like a job for this guy

As opposed to 38k in less than half the time?

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

Very few people here seem to have this take. Could anybody imagine being in a room with Woody and he's trying to read the riot act. I'd break out laughing. NOTHING in his demeanor demands attention. I can't see him being the one to get great players to dig deeper on D play unless they themselves are committed to doing that.

Woody is a good times poser. He isn't a coach that will get or demand the last drop from players.

That said Woody despite his soft demeanor still parks some players under the bus. He plays favorites like anybody else, just that some of his choices are strange.


Thats fine. I'll pushback when I see posters here that are being more and more dismissive.

This is a discussion board. Soundwave is discussing. Whether one likes what he's saying or not.

Woop woop Here comes the forum police. Posters are allowed to continuously complain and we’re allowed to call them out for it.

 

[Senor Catface]

If people here want to keep proclaiming him as a no.1 D here, I will. Dude is a fraud.

Stop giving players on this team a title based on "well every team has a no.1 this or that, so I guess this dude is our version of that by default".

That's not how this works.

We don't have a no.1 D and we don't have a no.1 goalie. It is what it is. Since it's a lot harder to get the no.1 D part, we might as well focus on the other glaring hole.

Nurse is not any better than Ekholm and no one really has considered Ekholm a no.1 D in his career. I think honestly Ekholm is probably a bit better player, so how in the world is Darnell a no.1 if he's not even better than Ekholm?

TLDR

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

TLDR

Here I’ll sum it up.

Nurse BAD. Oilers BAD.

Very few people here seem to have this take. Could anybody imagine being in a room with Woody and he's trying to read the riot act. I'd break out laughing. NOTHING in his demeanor demands attention. I can't see him being the one to get great players to dig deeper on D play unless they themselves are committed to doing that.

Woody is a good times poser. He isn't a coach that will get or demand the last drop from players.

That said Woody despite his soft demeanor still parks some players under the bus. He plays favorites like anybody else, just that some of his choices are strange.


Thats fine. I'll pushback when I see posters here that are being more and more dismissive.

This is a discussion board. Soundwave is discussing. Whether one likes what he's saying or not.

That’s awesome! I push back when people derail threads with their expertise. Does the new video guy have good body language? Since you’re an expert.

 

[Soundwave]

Nurse deserves all the shit he gets, frankly he gets treated with kiddie gloves because he's McDavid's buddy and he was anointed a no.1 D for no reason. If he's a no.1 D then so is Ekholm who is a better player than Nurse.

-6 in the Colorado series and -6 in the Vegas series for 9 million dollars, yeah this dude can take some heat.

Don't like it, then don't stink up the joint in the playoffs. Simple as that.

People gasping "how dare you!" when you criticize Nurse can unclutch their pearls. It's well warranted.

 

[The Nuge]

I remember we were called crazy for doing something similar with Klefbom.

Yep. That contract was looking like arguably the best value contract in the entire NHL before his arthritis forced him to retire. The Sens did the same thing with Stutzle and he proceeded to pop off for 90 points. That contract timing probably saved them 2-3 million per

Yea I have never been happy with an Oilers signing or decision ever. That’s me!

The guy just had a more impressive season than any of our D since Pronger have had. Why compare?

That’s absolutely ridiculous. Klefa in 16/17 was voted as like the 20th best dman in the league in the polls forum. He was a legit #1 dman. And Nurse has been better for every single one of the last 5 seasons.

We must think about this rationally.

Out: Kostin, Bjugstad, Yamamoto
In: Brown

We did not have to sign Connor Brown. We did not have to sign Connor Brown. We did not have to sign Connor Brown. Do you understand that? We did not have to sign Connor Brown, but we did at the expense of next year.

Matt Duchene signed for 3 mil, and we have pissed that away next year in dead cap for Connor Brown. More actually, but who's counting or caring at this point.

We've got a perennial 20-30 point player for 4 million a year and people are kicking their heels together in glee, at the expense of a hell of a lot.

Just as we were about to start getting rid of our dead cap problems, we've added another significant one. What do we gain from it? A meager upgrade on the least important position in the entire sport, on a team where its superstar lines 1 and 2 are going to be putting up 130+ points no matter who they play with.

I can't think of a less important place to allocate all of our free resources AND opt to cripple the cap situation next year to do so.

Glaring hole on the back end and we opt to go out and upgrade our right wing, despite already scoring the most goals in the regular season last year. What the f*** am I missing here?

This hyperbole is making it hard to take you serious. A guy who’s never had less than 28 points in a season (minus when he played less than 10 games in a season), and scored at a 50 point pace from 2019-2022, is just a 20-30 point guy to you?

 

[duul]

Yep. That contract was looking like arguably the best value contract in the entire NHL before his arthritis forced him to retire. The Sens did the same thing with Stutzle and he proceeded to pop off for 90 points. That contract timing probably saved them 2-3 million per



That’s absolutely ridiculous. Klefa in 16/17 was voted as like the 20th best dman in the league in the polls forum. He was a legit #1 dman. And Nurse has been better for every single one of the last 5 seasons.



This hyperbole is making it hard to take you serious. A guy who’s never had less than 28 points in a season (minus when he played less than 10 games in a season), and scored at a 50 point pace from 2019-2022, is just a 20-30 point guy to you?

Lmao, what? The polls forum. 20th best defenceman in the league because he put up 30 something points, half of them on the PP with McDavid and Draisaitl.

Sanderson, as a complete rookie, also put up 30 something points, with much better advanced stats at even strength for the analytics nerds. Corsi, fenwick, not to mention getting harder matchups than Klefbom and to top it all off, way more starts in the defensive zone.

All you have to do is watch the two play and see one is a far more smart, smooth, poised defender who doesn't seem to be playing in slow motion like Klefbom was. He ain't contact anemic either. This is a rookie by the way.

Klefbom has reached mythological status on this board because he was the only half-decent defenceman we had in forever. He ain't that guy. Sanderson will be that guy.

 

[Anarchism]

Very few people here seem to have this take. Could anybody imagine being in a room with Woody and he's trying to read the riot act. I'd break out laughing. NOTHING in his demeanor demands attention. I can't see him being the one to get great players to dig deeper on D play unless they themselves are committed to doing that.

Woody is a good times poser. He isn't a coach that will get or demand the last drop from players.

That said Woody despite his soft demeanor still parks some players under the bus. He plays favorites like anybody else, just that some of his choices are strange.


Thats fine. I'll pushback when I see posters here that are being more and more dismissive.

This is a discussion board. Soundwave is discussing. Whether one likes what he's saying or not.

Like it or not....and ive skated under so many task masters....Woodie is tomorrows coach.
Sounder is discussing but he does have a very deliberate way of presenting his ideas (sometimes blatantly wrong) that grates. Sometimes he is dead on but it so hard to get past 'this is right".

 

[SupremeTeam16]

Does anyone know what Woodcroft’s record is since he’s become an NHL head coach and how it compares to the other teams in the league in that time?

 

[belair]

Karlsson at least gives Pittsburgh a shot of a run in the playoffs if things click.

They aren't trading Crosby or Malkin, that's not a "GM decision" that's a "the owner says f*** no you're not doing that" decision. Getting Karlsson for peanuts is an entirely reasonable move.

Maybe there is enough in the tank between those three and if they get a hot goalie they can eek out of the Eastern Conference playoffs leaning hard on their experience.

At least that's an organization that shows it has an obligation to give its stars help and is willing to make big moves to do that consistently throughout Crosby's career.

Can't say the same about the Oilers. This organization acts like they should be given a trophy for acquiring a no.2 D and then sit around and act like McDavid and Draisaitl can materialize a Cup out of thin air with massive holes on the team's back end and no help from the goalie.

And if things don't click, they have no maneuverability because all of the pieces they possess that have positive value are overly high cap hits that belong to players very close to retirement. All of which who have NTCs. They added an elite offensive defenseman when they already had one. San Jose did the exact same following a Finals appearance and they instantly went up in flames.

The Oilers are currently one of the top teams in the West and have done nothing but improve year over year. Making that type of gamble cripples a teams ability to be competitive in the future. Even if things manage to work out in the short term.

Teams like Tampa, Chicago, Washington, St Louis and yes, even Pittsburgh rose to their competitive status by struggling through their stages of development. Many take years to get to the point where their teams had the depth to go on deep playoff runs with consistency.

Had Pittsburgh stumbled on Crosby at the end of a failed rebuild requiring significant restructuring, there's a good chance that those early Cups wouldn't have been possible. Reality is that he was drafted onto a team that already had much of their early core already intact. There were valuable pieces that they could parlay into that 'support' that you talk about.

Fact of the matter is that in this era teams are held within the limitations of their cap realities. Both short and long term. And teams that want to be consistently competitive must maintain some level of maneuverability that's generally determined by the quantity and quality of prospects and secondary support players. When teams make 'the big move' that spends a large quantity of those limited assets and also commits to cap long-term, it shrinks the competitive window.

Why are the Oilers not making big, risky moves? Because they don't have to.

 

[duul]

Does anyone know what Woodcroft’s record is since he’s become an NHL head coach and how it compares to the other teams in the league in that time?

Nobody is denying our team is in the top 10 for NHL regular season teams. Good for Woodcroft, but his failure to adjust in the playoffs added to the litany of failures this club conjured up to send them packing.

And if things don't click, they have no maneuverability because all of the pieces they possess that have positive value are overly high cap hits that belong to players very close to retirement. All of which who have NTCs. They added an elite offensive defenseman when they already had one. San Jose did the exact same following a Finals appearance and they instantly went up in flames.

The Oilers are currently one of the top teams in the West and have done nothing but improve year over year. Making that type of gamble cripples a teams ability to be competitive in the future. Even if things manage to work out in the short term.

Teams like Tampa, Chicago, Washington, St Louis and yes, even Pittsburgh rose to their competitive status by struggling through their stages of development. Many take years to get to the point where their teams had the depth to go on deep playoff runs with consistency.

Had Pittsburgh stumbled on Crosby at the end of a failed rebuild requiring significant restructuring, there's a good chance that those early Cups wouldn't have been possible. Reality is that he was drafted onto a team that already had much of their early core already intact. There were valuable pieces that they could parlay into that 'support' that you talk about.

Fact of the matter is that in this era teams are held within the limitations of their cap realities. Both short and long term. And teams that want to be consistently competitive must maintain some level of maneuverability that's generally determined by the quantity and quality of prospects and secondary support players. When teams make 'the big move' that spends a large quantity of those limited assets and also commits to cap long-term, it shrinks the competitive window.

Why are the Oilers not making big, risky moves? Because they don't have to.

I am in agreement, and they all drafted and developed at least one, in some cases multiple all star, all time level Norris winning defencemen.

 

[Senor Catface]

Nobody is denying our team is in the top 10 for NHL regular season teams. Good for Woodcroft, but his failure to adjust in the playoffs added to the litany of failures this club conjured up to send them packing.


I am in agreement, and they all drafted and developed at least one, in some cases multiple all star, all time level Norris winning defencemen.

That wasn’t his question.

 

[duul]

That wasn’t his question.

I figured I'd save the step where I say 'Woodcroft has the best 'regular season' record of any coach since he joined the league!' Wow!'.

We all know this, and yet it is an endless faltering come playoff time when we aren't playing a joke club like L.A. or Calgary.

The only reason we have made second rounds at all is because we were lucky enough to play L.A. and Todd McLellan.

 

[Senor Catface]

I figured I'd save the step where I say 'Woodcroft has the best 'regular season' record of any coach since he joined the league!' Wow!'.

We all know this, and yet it is an endless faltering come playoff time when we aren't playing a joke club like L.A. or Calgary.

The only reason we have made second rounds at all is because we were lucky enough to play L.A. and Todd McLellan.

Ok but seems easier to just answer a poster who was curious.

Does anyone know what Woodcroft’s record is since he’s become an NHL head coach and how it compares to the other teams in the league in that time?

Oilers are second in wins and points behind Boston who are ahead by a lot.

 

[K1984]

I figured I'd save the step where I say 'Woodcroft has the best 'regular season' record of any coach since he joined the league!' Wow!'.

We all know this, and yet it is an endless faltering come playoff time when we aren't playing a joke club like L.A. or Calgary.

The only reason we have made second rounds at all is because we were lucky enough to play L.A. and Todd McLellan.

Maybe, just maybe, those are also good teams, and the only reason they could be considered a "lucky" matchup is because the Oilers are truly a top 2/3 team in the Conference and over the last two years only lost to one of the other top 2/3 teams in the Conference?

Everyone and their dog was sending the Flames to the Finals in 2022 before the Oilers pissed on them. Then the moment that happened it's automatically "oh well the Flames weren't any good anyways, so..."

 

[SupremeTeam16]

I figured I'd save the step where I say 'Woodcroft has the best 'regular season' record of any coach since he joined the league!' Wow!'.

We all know this, and yet it is an endless faltering come playoff time when we aren't playing a joke club like L.A. or Calgary.

The only reason we have made second rounds at all is because we were lucky enough to play L.A. and Todd McLellan.

Two seasons is endless faltering? Both times being bested by the eventual champion.

Gee what a loser, couldn’t even reach the absolute pinnacle of his vocation in the first two seasons.

 

[duul]

Two seasons is endless faltering? Both times being bested by the eventual champion.

Gee what a loser, couldn’t even reach the absolute pinnacle of his vocation in the first two seasons.

What? It's the same team.

When we get a new coach in a couple years after a few more early playoff exits does the entire fanbase have to reset as well? Start at 0 with an even keel and forget we haven't won anything for 40 years?

Maybe, just maybe, those are also good teams, and the only reason they could be considered a "lucky" matchup is because the Oilers are truly a top 2/3 team in the Conference and over the last two years only lost to one of the other top 2/3 teams in the Conference?

Everyone and their dog was sending the Flames to the Finals in 2022 before the Oilers pissed on them. Then the moment that happened it's automatically "oh well the Flames weren't any good anyways, so..."

Again, there is a drastic difference in how the sport is played in the regular season vs the playoffs. Are we not in agreement with that?

Perhaps there are strategies and team dynamics/makeups that lend themselves favourably to regular season play, not so much playoff hockey. Would you agree that is a possibility worth looking into lad?

 

[oobga]

I do find it distasteful when people say he signed for a discount. 4M career high earnings after missing a whole season due to injury? if we re-sign him next year hes gonna ream us for like 10M in cap

It's a weird contract. Basically just by being alive he gets the full 4M, and any cap increase next season is basically gone because of it. We couldn't even put a condition like having to perform at a 2nd/3rd liner level at least with 15+ goals. Nope, just need to be a warm body for a couple weeks on the NHL roster, full bonus.

Definitely wouldn't call it a discount. It's a consequence of poor cap management deal, and kicks the can down the road again.

edit: I guess I dug this post up from 8 pages ago, sorry, needed to refresh cache or something, lol.

 

[Broberg Speed]

Nurse absolutely deserves criticism. Even if one was to ignore his contract it's impossible to overlook his playoff performances.

Directed towards the "one year Nurse played with a torn hip flexor" crowd, that was his pest playoffs. So give that narrative rest.

And Nurse plays better defense than Bouchard by a longshot. That's 50% of our expected top 4 that are not overly competent at playing actual defense. And we only have 3 top 4 defenseman.

Da f*** you can't criticize the Oilers players or the coaching staff for not constructing an environment where these players play better defense, this includes the forwards. Moving to a zone defensive system to help out our helpless defensemen in their own zone would be a good start. If Woodcroft can't handle that, find a coaching staff that can.

I fully believe the Oilers are capable of winning the Presidents' trophy this season. My optimism over this club winning a Stanley Cup is low.

 

[duul]

Could care less about having a popular opinion.

Nurse 100 percent deserves all the criticism he gets after the last two playoffs in particular.

If he is a so called no.1 D I guess Ekholm is a 1A D because he’s better than Nurse.

Crazy that Bouchard was our best defenceman in the playoffs. What does that make him? Super1A D?

 

[Mr Positive]

Does anyone know what Woodcroft’s record is since he’s become an NHL head coach and how it compares to the other teams in the league in that time?

Woodcroft's Oilers are second best in the league by win percentage (this stats is based around the date he started I think). He is also the most winningest coach in Oilers history, for the regular season. It was in the Athletic

 

[Soundwave]

Crazy that Bouchard was our best defenceman in the playoffs. What does that make him? Super1A D?

Kulak was the best Oilers D for the second straight year. Ekholm 2nd.

Bouchard was great on the PP but poor at actual defense. The rest of the blue line … should spend a lot of time reflecting.