Rumor: Rumors & Proposals Thread | Broberg, Holloway and Ceci are Gone, Do We Add Another D Before Camp?

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TheNumber4

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Nov 11, 2011
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What i find shocking is that with all these "capologists", Lawyers, Gms and owners that this deferred salary loop hole is only now being used.
Seems to be showing that these teams could use a lesson on the CBA prior to signing
Yeh you’d think it’d have already been done by now. I guess Tulsky is known as a bit of a wizard in this dept though, maybe he’s one of the rare GMs in this League actually earning his salary.

It’s an interesting idea but let’s be honest here, if the Oilers use this legal mechanism to reduce their overall cap hit by millions a year, teams will cry and the league will step in. We’re not Vegas, the league won’t say “well it’s legal in the cba so our hands are tied until the next cba is negotiated. They’ll use their spirit of the rule line to justify shutting something down that is completely legal in the cba.
Good thing the Canes stepped up and did it first then. Would give Bettman pause to screw with one of his southern experiments.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

Registered User
Feb 19, 2003
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Ohtani contract changed the playbook on deferral money contacts with a rediculous $2 million per year deal over the contract life with all remaining deferred. Of course that's do-able and tax advantaged with an estimated annual endorsement stream $40 millions per year.


I can imagine the NHL as a hard cap system maybe putting in a range for deferrable salary to manage from a league perspective another exploitable tool for rich franchises. Makes sense the Oilers would look to exploit its use with their super elites.
 

McDNicks17

Moderator
Jul 1, 2010
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but couldn't you abuse the hell out of these deferred contracts?

Is there anything stopping you from having a player like Jeff Skinner defer his entire $3M until the day after his one year contract and then have him play with a $0 cap hit?
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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Feb 19, 2003
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but couldn't you abuse the hell out of these deferred contracts?

Is there anything stopping you from having a player like Jeff Skinner defer his entire $3M until the day after his one year contract and then have him play with a $0 cap hit?
Assume at minimum a team would have to show a league minimum contract on the books. What I wonder about will be the league eventually legislating some sort of range within the vehicle. Same as was stated with over term deals to shave cap aav with added years star players were never going to play.

But it would seem reasonable to ensure the deferral money is there when the player executes it in retirement phase. So do the team's need to set aide deferral pools of money they pay into annual with current real value of money through financial products like annuities or even insured retirement plan which is tax protected? Weird to see a player trade transaction with this form of contract consideration though really only likely top-end elites would get them ... wouldn't they? Could a team trade for only the cap aspect of a contract while requiring the signing team to pay the deferred contract terms (and maybe even the cap saving difference involved). Is this the future LTIR contract flit for cap space?

A new door opens with an established weapon from other leagues.
 

Mr Positive

Cap Crunch Incoming
Nov 20, 2013
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but couldn't you abuse the hell out of these deferred contracts?

Is there anything stopping you from having a player like Jeff Skinner defer his entire $3M until the day after his one year contract and then have him play with a $0 cap hit?
I wonder if anyone knows for sure except the bean counters at the league (maybe not even all GMs), but if it goes to a ludicrous place the league can always just disallow it like they did with the Kovalchuck deal
 

Soundwave

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Mar 1, 2007
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This does not account for the time value of money concept however

What is the specified time value of money specified by the NHL? It seems like it's not clear exactly.

If you are playing in a high tax market like anywhere in Canada, it seems to me like you would want salary deferred so you don't have to pay the highest tax rate and can instead get money later when you are retired at a lower tax rate.
 

SupremeTeam16

5-14-6-1
May 31, 2013
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I don't see this being the case here. We are not talking about massive reductions. Maybe $1-1.5M for a guy like Leon or McDavid. Probably less. But three million could be huge for the team.

That said you can still do "sooner the better" at the same time using front loading and signing bonuses.

@Soundwave also gave an added incentive. Think of this as a very very lucrative RRSP. :)


He did not actually calculate this accurately either. But I agree a 40 year deferral is incredibly unrealistic.
So if you do it on both you’re talking 2-3M, that’s a sizeable advantage, I can’t see everyone just saying oh yeah no problem go right ahead.

What if McDavid wanted to pull an Ohtani? The guy will of made 120M+ by the time his next contract kicks in, why not defer a big portion to gain a big competitive advantage? What is more important for Mcdavid, putting more money then he could ever spend into his bank account as soon as possible or giving himself the best chance of winning?
 

Soundwave

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Mar 1, 2007
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Isn't the Ohtani deal basically he knows he is going to get residency/citizenship in a low tax country after he retires, so that money is going to be taxed at likely 0-10% in the future instead of like the close to 48% he would have to pay in California.

Also why didn't the Oilers do this for Connor Brown last year? Was there anything stopping them?
 
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bellagiobob

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Jul 27, 2006
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but couldn't you abuse the hell out of these deferred contracts?

Is there anything stopping you from having a player like Jeff Skinner defer his entire $3M until the day after his one year contract and then have him play with a $0 cap hit?

Cap hit this year would still be the present value of the deferral. Likely not much savings on a one year deal.
 
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Spawn

Something in the water
Feb 20, 2006
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Wow! Fantastic find. The Oilers should be all over this with both McDavid and Leon. Maybe this is even being considered.
I’m really confused how this is a) allowed and if it is b) why no team has ever done this before?

This is essentially what the league got rid of when they eliminating extra long dollar diving deals isn’t it? Just the player is no longer under contract?
 

Soundwave

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Mar 1, 2007
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So how does the NHL differ from MLB? Could someone use this to something comparable to the Ohtani contract (obviously at less salary)?
 

Fourier

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Dec 29, 2006
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I’m really confused how this is a) allowed and if it is b) why no team has ever done this before?

This is essentially what the league got rid of when they eliminating extra long dollar diving deals isn’t it? Just the player is no longer under contract?
Its different. Those long deals typically had very low salary years tagged on that the player may never have played to artificially reduce the cap hit. Hence money would be paid to a player that was never accounted for in the cap calculation. For these deals all money paid is actually accounted for in the cap hit. It is just that the player defers some of the money which is discounted to its present value. (See my post #898 for a simple example.)

Jarvis' deal is a little different than the example I gave but the principle is the same. You take the three deferrals and calculate their present value. In this case, the savings on the cap is not so great because there are only three deferrals and the biggest one is for only one year. Spreading out the payments after the deal is over would lower the cap hit more.

For a player the biggest possible advantage comes through possible future tax savings. As @Soundwave points out a guy like Draisaitl could save tax by having part of his salary deferred if he establishes residence in a low tax country after he retires. Jarvis for example could retire in a state with no income tax and save the 5.25% he would pay on the signing bonus as a resident of North Carolina. That alone would say him almost $800K in taxes.

This is fairly sophisticated stuff for a player. So it may not be something most want to think about.
 
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Fourier

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So how does the NHL differ from MLB? Could someone use this to something comparable to the Ohtani contract (obviously at less salary)?
I am not sure it is all that different. Ohtani's deal is just very extreme. He has deferred almost all of his money and has spread out the payments over ten years. He gets $68M per year for the period of 2034-2043. The MLB uses a discount rate of 5%. So each year the Dodgers effectively have to put aside $41.7M to fund the payment 10 years down the road.

What we don't know is how much deferral the NHL would allow. And how far down the road they would allow the payments to be made.
 

McJadeddog

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Sep 25, 2003
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So if you do it on both you’re talking 2-3M, that’s a sizeable advantage, I can’t see everyone just saying oh yeah no problem go right ahead.

What if McDavid wanted to pull an Ohtani? The guy will of made 120M+ by the time his next contract kicks in, why not defer a big portion to gain a big competitive advantage? What is more important for Mcdavid, putting more money then he could ever spend into his bank account as soon as possible or giving himself the best chance of winning?

There is no reason why he couldn’t do the exact same thing apparently. I think it’s pretty clear cap circumvention, but apparently the league is okay with it, so it would be sweet if the oilers could pull it off with McDrai
 

bellagiobob

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Jul 27, 2006
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Its different. Those long deals typically had very low salary years tagged on that the player may never have played to artificially reduce the cap hit. Hence money would be paid to a player that was never accounted for in the cap calculation. For these deals all money paid is actually accounted for in the cap hit. It is just that the player defers some of the money which is discounted to its present value. (See my post #898 for a simple example.)

Jarvis' deal is a little different than the example I gave but the principle is the same. You take the three deferrals and calculate their present value. In this case, the savings on the cap is not so great because there are only three deferrals and the biggest one is for only one year. Spreading out the payments after the deal is over would lower the cap hit more.

For a player the biggest possible advantage comes through possible future tax savings. As @Soundwave points out a guy like Draisaitl could save tax by having part of his salary deferred if he establishes residence in a low tax country after he retires. Jarvis for example could retire in a state with no income tax and save the 5.25% he would pay on the signing bonus as a resident of North Carolina. That alone would say him almost $800K in taxes.

This is fairly sophisticated stuff for a player. So it may not be something most want to think about.

Of course the trade off is the rate of return his investments would make if he took the money earlier, plus compounding, etc. Definitely an interesting deal that really has to fit an individual specifically. Could have a player currently playing in a no tax state that is planning on moving back to Canada when his career is over that might not find the deal attractive tax wise.
 
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Soundwave

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The more I read, the more it sounds like that was a lot of work to save a measly $480k cap hit for the Canes haha.

Your front office is already paid a set salary, might as well make them do some damn work to earn that salary.

500k in savings on one contract is one thing, you get 1.5 million savings on another, 500k on another, that's suddenly 2.5 million in cap you wouldn't have otherwise.

Acrued in a season, that can be like having 10 million in extra cap at a trade deadline. This stuff matters.
 

Bryanbryoil

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Sep 13, 2004
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Your front office is already paid a set salary, might as well make them do some damn work to earn that salary.

500k in savings on one contract is one thing, you get 1.5 million savings on another, 500k on another, that's suddenly 2.5 million in cap you wouldn't have otherwise.

Acrued in a season, that can be like having 10 million in extra cap at a trade deadline. This stuff matters.
It all adds up in the end.
 
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TheNumber4

Registered User
Nov 11, 2011
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Tyson Barrie's house is way nicer If you have an extra 2.4 million lying around.
Does it have a cool hostage situation back story though?

Also, heard people in that neighborhood hate that Barrie’s house is smack dab in the ravine lol.
 

The Nuge

Some say…
Jan 26, 2011
27,930
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This is from Bob McKenzie's article:


What if Draisaitl was hypothetically willing to defer $33.6 million of that contract to be paid out over the 40 years after the deal expires? That would be approximately $840,000 per year from 2033 until 2073, and yes, we’re talking a Bobby Bonilla-type contract. That would pay Draisaitl $80 million over the first eight years of the deal, hypothetically making for a cap hit in the neighborhood of $10 million per year – or a discount of $4.2 million per year of the deal.


That isn’t exactly how the calculation or the math works, but the numbers are round and it’s easy to grasp and understand. Draisaitl has already earned north of $70 million in his career. To bring in another $80 million over the first eight years of the next deal makes him more than financially secure for future generations of Draisaitls – and the deferred $33.6 million, which is accruing interest the entire time, is not just gravy but also idiot-proof savings.


Now I don't know if Drai would accept something that extreme, lol, but what about $112 million with $20 million deferred?

I don’t think it’s extreme enough. Up both the money offered and deferred significantly. 160 million with 150 of it deferred. His caphit plummets to make us cup favourites until the end of the deal and he’s making an extra 50% for taking the money later on. Then offer McDavid 200 million with 190 of it deferred next summer.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but couldn't you abuse the hell out of these deferred contracts?

Is there anything stopping you from having a player like Jeff Skinner defer his entire $3M until the day after his one year contract and then have him play with a $0 cap hit?

You would sure think so. Especially for the type of guys we’re currently targeting who have money, but want a cup. Whether Skinner’s got 87 or 90 million isn’t changing a thing about his life this year. You can afford to take the payout later on when you already have generational wealth
 

Speed220DChalavan

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Mar 29, 2014
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Doesn't the player take the risk in they get bought out near the end of the contract? Or would the deferred payments be guaranteed?

I think the Oilers will explore it, but doubt the savings will be very material.

Also questionable where Draisaitl will live post-career. His fiance is from Ontario. His previous off-season home was in Barcelona, not Germany (though he spent time in both).
 
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