Rumor: Rumors and Proposals Thread: Hallsy Take 2?

[Tobias Kahun]

When was the last time a Cup champ had a defensive defenseman with limited puck skills in their top4?

A defensive defenseman who hasn’t even been good at defense the last 2 years.

 

[BarDownBobo]

When was the last time a Cup champ had a defensive defenseman with limited puck skills in their top4?

Blues-Joel Edmundson
Caps-Brooks Orpik
Pens-Brian Dumoulin
Hawks-Niklas Hjalmarsson
Kings-Willie Mitchell

Pretty well every team has a guy like that. They’re still quite valuable, especially when the refs put the whistles away in the playoffs...

 

[Cloned]

Blues-Joel Edmundson
Caps-Brooks Orpik
Pens-Brian Dumoulin
Hawks-Niklas Hjalmarsson
Kings-Willie Mitchell

Pretty well every team has a guy like that. They’re still quite valuable, especially when the refs put the whistles away in the playoffs...

All of those players were playing at a level much higher than present-day Larsson.

Larsson is pretty much at Gudbrandson level right now.

 

[Paralyzer008]

Blues-Joel Edmundson
Caps-Brooks Orpik
Pens-Brian Dumoulin
Hawks-Niklas Hjalmarsson
Kings-Willie Mitchell

Pretty well every team has a guy like that. They’re still quite valuable, especially when the refs put the whistles away in the playoffs...

Dumoulin is a vastly better puckmover from those five.

Hjalmarsson was an elite defensive D-man who also came up well in possession for years.

The other 3? They fit the bill moreso but two of them weren't terrible.

Basically what I'm trying to say is somehow Brooks Orpik won a cup in a decent role and it's baffling.

 

[belair]

Tipp said it best. The best defense is playing in the other team's zone. Bear, Nurse, Klefbom and Persson do that. Larsson, Russell and Benning don't.

So in other words establishing a cycle? Something teams commonly do to lock opposing teams' scoring lines in their defensive zone?

Your argument in its simplest form is that hockey is about scoring goals. I'm saying that hockey is about scoring the most goals.

If you watch the games closely where our top players are kept off of the scoring sheet, you'll see other teams locking those lines in our zone repeatedly. Not even necessarily generating scoring chances. Grinding. This is where these two arguments come together.

Adam Larsson is exceptionally good at defending against the cycle. He's actually pretty good at supporting ours also.

I'm not sure why you're trying to conflate GA with PK%. Obviously there's correlation with GA and wins, but you were specifically talking about PK%. As I've already said, there's no correlation between wins and PK%. Five of the sixteen playoff teams last season had a PK ranked higher than 16th(aka above average). It absolutely is not "vital".

Why are we assuming more talented players would have no difference in even strength production? The whole premise we're talking about is having some players that can actually make an impact at 5v5 instead of offensive black holes like Granlund and Khaira for the sake of their PKing.


I think you're stuck in the past and I don't blame you because the Oilers are too.

Good NHL teams have puck-movers and at least a third line that's able to regularly chip in offense. Unfortunately the Oilers have Russell and Benning icing the puck every time they touch it and what looks like another season of historically bad depth scoring.

Because your team is most likely to give up a goal while your team is shorthanded. And when your team is giving up 62 of them in a year like we did last season, they're detrimental to your team's ability to win hockey games. I just can't wrap my head around how you don't see how that correlates.

The previous two seasons we gave up 62 and 57 PPG respectively. Both seasons we were in the red in terms of special teams production meaning we gave up more than we produced. We missed the playoffs both years. 2016/17? We gave up 43. Scored 57 PPG.

Quality special teams units are vital. They're particularly vital when your team lacks quality scoring depth at ES.

And in regards to the skill in the bottom six...I mean, sure. But we've seen Marody here, Yamamoto, Puljujarvi, Gambardella...None of them did anything. The young guys weren't ready. You're not doing them any favors yo-yoing them between here and Bakersfield. And as @nexttothemoon kindly presented, there are roster spots potentially up for grabs in the instance guys like Jurco and Chiasson fail to find production. In the instance of the other guys like Khaira, Archie and Granlund, I don't see Tippett taking the personnel away from that PK unit.

 

[Tyrolean]

Why do people say "I mean" all the time?

 

[belair]

If he's waived when Toronto activates their guys off of IR, would we claim Jason Spezza?

 

[ConnorMcNugesaitl]

Bouch has to be slotting in next year though no?

Actually come to think of it, we should get rid of Russell AND Benning. That'd be a huge upgrade.

I was just thinking this year minus Russell.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

If he's waived when Toronto activates their guys off of IR, would we claim Jason Spezza?

Honestly I could see that being an option. I would bet Ottawa claims him first.

 

[LMFAO]

Dunno about you guys but I'd trade Larsson for Kapanen in an heartbeat.

The leafs did tried to acquire Larsson last season...

 

[SupremeTeam16]

I think Larson’s value would be negatively affected by his play last season and him coming off a serious injury to start the season.

I know that if we traded him, people would complain about an underwhelming return and then when guys like Bear, Benning, Persson get injured or falter then people would be in here complaining about dumb Holland trading away Larsson/our Defense is so bad lololol.


Keep him, give the young guys a chance to find their NHL footing and get comfortable but also let Tippett and Playfair work with Larsson see if they can return him to his previous form.

 

[CupofOil]

Think Adam Larsson is gone for a forward sooner or later.

Plain as day this team needs forward depth and we have Bear, Persson, and Benning on the right side already and Bouchard coming soon.

I don't get this mentality.
So a couple of decent games from Persson and 10 nice games from Bear and all of a sudden Larsson is expendable? No, that's not how quality organizations work. At least it's not how I'd expect a Holland run organization to function.
Fans think that way, not quality GMs.

We all know that Larsson has struggled the last couple of seasons but he's still a guy you want around when the games become tighter checking down the stretch. Things are pretty easy for Bear and Persson early in season when teams aren't going full tilt yet and trying to figure out their own identities, not to mention that they've had a very easy schedule. What happens when the games get tough? What happens when the rookies hit a rough patch, which will happen? If Larsson isn't there, who's there to pick up the slack when they eventually struggle? Manning?

The fact of the matter is that the Oilers have very little "proven" depth. I know it's important to get the young guys in there but they still need a safety net.
I'm not adverse to dealing Larsson but now is the not the time. This will be something to explore in the offseason, same with Russell.

 

[oXo Cube]

I definitely think Larsson will be gone for a forward.

In the summer.

 

[frag2]

I don't get this mentality.
So a couple of decent games from Persson and 10 nice games from Bear and all of a sudden Larsson is expendable? No, that's not how quality organizations work. At least it's not how I'd expect a Holland run organization to function.
Fans think that way, not quality GMs.

We all know that Larsson has struggled the last couple of seasons but he's still a guy you want around when the games become tighter checking down the stretch. Things are pretty easy for Bear and Persson early in season when teams aren't going full tilt yet and trying to figure out their own identities, not to mention that they've had a very easy schedule. What happens when the games get tough? What happens when the rookies hit a rough patch, which will happen? If Larsson isn't there, who's there to pick up the slack when they eventually struggle? Manning?

The fact of the matter is that the Oilers have very little "proven" depth. I know it's important to get the young guys in there but they still need a safety net.
I'm not adverse to dealing Larsson but now is the not the time. This will be something to explore in the offseason, same with Russell.

The Larsson injury is somewhat of a blessing in that we can actually see what we have with our D prospects when given more responsibility and so far, Bear has show he's extremely capable. Small sample size but you have to start somewhere.

Hell, it's kind of telling how Tipp saw Larsson right from the getgo; he'd rather pair a 'nobody' in Persson with Klefbom than Larsson.

If Larsson has proven anything the last few years, it's that he can't be expected to do his job competently.

 

[MessierII]

When was the last time a Cup champ had a defensive defenseman with limited puck skills in their top4?

2017 pens. Ian Cole.

 

[CupofOil]

2017 pens. Ian Cole.

2019 Blues. Joel Edmundson
2018 Caps. Brooks Orpik
Also, 2016 and 2017 Pens. Brian Dumoulin.

Just because the puck moving Dman is in style now, that doesn't mean the shut down Dman is extinct.

 

[belair]

The Larsson injury is somewhat of a blessing in that we can actually see what we have with our D prospects when given more responsibility and so far, Bear has show he's extremely capable. Small sample size but you have to start somewhere.

Hell, it's kind of telling how Tipp saw Larsson right from the getgo; he'd rather pair a 'nobody' in Persson with Klefbom than Larsson.

If Larsson has proven anything the last few years, it's that he can't be expected to do his job competently.

He expected Larsson to pair with Nurse as the team's shutdown pairing. They were the top pair.

 

[McDNicks17]

2017 pens. Ian Cole.

2019 Blues. Joel Edmundson
2018 Caps. Brooks Orpik
Also, 2016 and 2017 Pens. Brian Dumoulin.

Just because the puck moving Dman is in style now, that doesn't mean the shut down Dman is extinct.

Cole, Edmundson and Dumoulin are all better skaters and able to make outlets. Orpik was on the 3rd pairing during the Caps run.

I don't know if it's injuries, but Larsson's mobility has definitely taken a hit and he's now in that Benning territory of being decent with time and space, but the complete inability to create his own time and space. Not to mention that drop in mobility has had him looking like the worst defenseman on the team at defending off the rush.


I just don't see the value in keeping someone who you know is going to struggle in case the prospects above him start to struggle. There's plenty of cheaper players in the league that can do that.

If you can get a top6 forward for Larsson, it would be silly not to.

 

[frag2]

Cole, Edmundson and Dumoulin are all better skaters and able to make outlets. Orpik was on the 3rd pairing during the Caps run.

I don't know if it's injuries, but Larsson's mobility has definitely taken a hit and he's now in that Benning territory of being decent with time and space, but the complete inability to create his own time and space. Not to mention that drop in mobility has had him looking like the worst defenseman on the team at defending off the rush.


I just don't see the value in keeping someone you know who is going to struggle in case the prospects above him start to struggle. There's plenty of cheaper players in the league that can do that.

If you can get a top6 forward for Larsson, it would be silly not to.

Agreed. At some point, and probably soon, the Oilers are gonna have to make a decision with regards to where to slot Bouchard, Samorukov, Broberg etc etc.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

The only person that has made Adam Larsson expendable is Adam Larsson.

 

[CupofOil]

Cole, Edmundson and Dumoulin are all better skaters and able to make outlets. Orpik was on the 3rd pairing during the Caps run.

I don't know if it's injuries, but Larsson's mobility has definitely taken a hit and he's now in that Benning territory of being decent with time and space, but the complete inability to create his own time and space. Not to mention that drop in mobility has had him looking like the worst defenseman on the team at defending off the rush.


I just don't see the value in keeping someone you know who is going to struggle in case the prospects above him start to struggle. There's plenty of cheaper players in the league that can do that.

If you can get a top6 forward for Larsson, it would be silly not to.

I think Larsson goes as the team goes. He's the type of player who will play better in meaningful games IMO.

I don't think he's lost much mobility but I do think that motivation has been somewhat of an issue. The physicality, the attention to detail have been somewhat lacking in part IMO due to team failure and the motivation being sucked out of him.

My issue with dealing Larsson is you're running with a right side of a rookie who hasn't even played half a season of NHL games, a rookie who has played a handful of NHL games and Benning and this is healthy. What happens when an injury or two hits? What then? Throw Bouchard into the fire? Other rookies? Manning?

If they get a slam dunk offer like Nylander or Ehlers then they'd be stupid to not jump on it but other than that, I don't think they can afford to deal Larsson yet. Save it for the offseason, no need to rush it now.

 

[Magnum23]

I was thinking Ennis might be able to chip in as vet too

no to Ennis the guy is done.

 

[Magnum23]

I see some flames fans pitching Gaudreau for a signed Hall. Hometown boy for hometown boy.

if I were the flames I would do it.

 

[Panda Bear]

It's beyond frustrating to watch Larsson when you can look very early in his career and see that he could move the puck so damn well.

There's a fantastic player in there, and it's getting harder and harder to see it being realized.

 

[Jumptheshark]

How long will Haas be willing to be on the farm