Roster thread: Get To Work (2022-2023 Season)

[Jim Bob]

I'm so over the "Pegulas are cheap" lie that keeps littering this board like it was the toilet area at Woodstock '99.

The NFLPA did a survey of over 300 players about the owners and teams, facilities, training staff, etc. and on the question of "level of confidence that current ownership is willing to invest to make upgrades" only six owners got a perfect score of 100, and one of those was Terry Pegula.

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You may claim it's a different sport or maybe Terry cares more about the Bills than the Sabres (lie) but he's not cheap. The layoffs in 2020 and 2021 were about an underperforming team and that's being nice. He was paying a lot of people to do a very poor job and it was time to clean house, get rid of dead weight, evaluate where to spend and why, then build it back up again. Yes there were issues because of Covid and the Pegulas who are not media savvy didn't do themselves any favors in their communications but they wouldn't have OK'd signing Taylor Hall or building a large analytics staff if they were cheap. Once the new Bills stadium breaks ground they'll look at real and large scale improvements at Key Bank. And they'll spend what they have to on contracts for Dahlin, Power, Quinn, or anyone else Adams tells them to.
Just stop lying about the Pegulas not being willing to spend. Young teams are cheap but they'll be more expensive as we get really good. I have no fear of losing key players due to money. Can't say that in the past.

Just because they are spending on one business does not mean that they are not being cheap with another business.

They led the league in unused cap space last season. They will lead the league in unused cap space this season.

They also made zero trades in either of those seasons where they bought draft pick capital by being a pass through in a trade or taking a short term bad contract off another team's hands.

The only deal they did like that was the Bishop deal and they got nothing from Dallas for that because they were under the cap floor and needed Bishop to be cap compliant.

We have no idea what kind of budget the Pegulas gave Adams to work with the past two seasons. But, there are signs that Adams was unable to make certain moves because the Pegulas did not want to pay the freight.

 

[Dingo44]

Just because they are spending on one business does not mean that they are not being cheap with another business.

They led the league in unused cap space last season. They will lead the league in unused cap space this season.

They also made zero trades in either of those seasons where they bought draft pick capital by being a pass through in a trade or taking a short term bad contract off another team's hands.

The only deal they did like that was the Bishop deal and they got nothing from Dallas for that because they were under the cap floor and needed Bishop to be cap compliant.

We have no idea what kind of budget the Pegulas gave Adams to work with the past two seasons. But, there are signs that Adams was unable to make certain moves because the Pegulas did not want to pay the freight.

What signs? Name a move that Adams would have made but didn't because the Pegulas didn't allow him to make due to money. Or even a hypothetical move.

 

[Ace]

For the Pegula loses money on this team truthers…

the value of the team has more than tripled since he bought it. And will rise again when Ottawa sells.

Hes been raking in literal hundreds of millions in value at the cost of a small liquid loss.

Don’t let billionaires trick you into believing they lose money. They don’t.

 

[Jim Bob]

What signs? Name a move that Adams would have made but didn't because the Pegulas didn't allow him to make due to money. Or even a hypothetical move.

Retaining salary as a pass through on any of those deals that happened the last two years like the Kane to the Rangers deal.

The Andrew Ladd to Arizona deal.

There have been lots of moves that Adams did not make that would have only cost them $$$ for assets. Nobody knows that the Pegulas stopped Adams from making those moves. But, that would be a reasonable thought to enter people's heads.

What reason is there to not make something like that happen at all with a team with way more cap space than they knew what to do with?

That the team with the most unused cap space in the entire league the past two years failing to make even A move that "weaponized cap space" doesn't seem fishy to you? At all?

 

[Dingo44]

Retaining salary as a pass through on any of those deals that happened the last two years like the Kane to the Rangers deal.

The Andrew Ladd to Arizona deal.

There have been lots of moves that Adams did not make that would have only cost them $$$ for assets. Nobody knows that the Pegulas stopped Adams from making those moves. But, that would be a reasonable thought to enter people's heads.

What reason is there to not make something like that happen at all with a team with way more cap space than they knew what to do with?

That the team with the most unused cap space in the entire league the past two years failing to make even A move that "weaponized cap space" doesn't seem fishy to you? At all?

But it's pure speculation. It proves nothing. I haven't even seen a hint of a story from any journalist that any of this happened.

What Pegula has done with the Bills and what he did with the Sabres in the past until he grew frustrated at throwing money at a failed and horrible product and decided to clean house demonstrates the opposite of cheap. We coulda woulda shoulda doesn't. I mean, how many former GM's and coaches were the Sabres paying to NOT work for the team at the same time - in the millions and millions?

You and others are welcome to "suspect" something but some around here act like it's a known fact when there is no real evidence to support it. Even the best you have is an example of something "fishy". Won't hold up in court.

 

[Jim Bob]

But it's pure speculation. It proves nothing. I haven't even seen a hint of a story from any journalist that any of this happened.

What Pegula has done with the Bills and what he did with the Sabres in the past until he grew frustrated at throwing money at a failed and horrible product and decided to clean house demonstrates the opposite of cheap. We coulda woulda shoulda doesn't. I mean, how many former GM's and coaches were the Sabres paying to NOT work for the team at the same time - in the millions and millions?

You and others are welcome to "suspect" something but some around here act like it's a known fact when there is no real evidence to support it. Even the best you have is an example of something "fishy". Won't hold up in court.

This is not a court of law. There is no need to "prove" anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

You can't prove that the Pegulas have not been asked to cut a check to acquire a draft pick and they said no, either.

It is all speculation based on what this team did last year and this year.

Last year they made 0 moves to weaponize cap space while ending the season with the most unused cap space in the entire NHL.

This year they made 0 moves to weaponize cap space and they will again end the season with the most unused cap space in the entire NHL.

That means one of two things:

Kevyn Adams let assets expire (cap space) without maximizing them

or

The Pegulas denied Kevyn Adams's request(s) to weaponize cap space to acquire trade capital because they did not want to spend the actual dollars

If there is another option, let me know what you think it was.

 

[Chainshot]

For the Pegula loses money on this team truthers…

BTG lost money on the team and they were making the playoffs, had lower payroll expenses and a fuller capacity.

the value of the team has more than tripled since he bought it. And will rise again when Ottawa sells.

If he were ever to find someone who would buy it, he'll recoup his money.

Hes been raking in literal hundreds of millions in value at the cost of a small liquid loss.

Since he hasn't sold the team and it was losing money when they had the extra gate/more people in the seats/lower payroll, he hasn't made that money back.

Don’t let billionaires trick you into believing they lose money. They don’t.

Oh, we've seen this before. It's how Wilson would con people into coming out to his craptastic teams with the hint that if people didn't turn out, the Bills would move. Or the stadium renovations for the Bills that always, always got pushed off on everyone, or again... the Bills would move. Or oh, hey, that $850 MILLION dollars that the state and county are kicking in to build Frakky Warbucks a new stadium for his team. Yeah, we've seen this show before and we will likely see it again when he puts his hand out for a new rink downtown.

Your post seems to conflate understanding of something with supporting something. That is not the case.

Now that we've gotten completely off topic which was in part due to the constant nature of your complaint posts in practically every thread about anything to do with the Sabres, I suggest we shift this one at least back to the lineup.

 

[Chainshot]

This is not a court of law. There is no need to "prove" anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

You can't prove that the Pegulas have not been asked to cut a check to acquire a draft pick and they said no, either.

It is all speculation based on what this team did last year and this year.

Last year they made 0 moves to weaponize cap space while ending the season with the most unused cap space in the entire NHL.

This year they made 0 moves to weaponize cap space and they will again end the season with the most unused cap space in the entire NHL.

That means one of two things:

Kevyn Adams let assets expire (cap space) without maximizing them

or

The Pegulas denied Kevyn Adams's request(s) to weaponize cap space to acquire trade capital because they did not want to spend the actual dollars

If there is another option, let me know what you think it was.

There is a third possibility and that is that Adams' cap valuation was based on previous cap retentions and that a certain GM in Minnesota undercut that return. And that was reported by Friedman/Marek that Guerin had angered some people about that.

It doesn't push things in either direction but it is another possibility.

Now... shall we get back to the topic at hand?

 

[Jim Bob]

There is a third possibility and that is that Adams' cap valuation was based on previous cap retentions and that a certain GM in Minnesota undercut that return. And that was reported by Friedman/Marek that Guerin had angered some people about that.

It doesn't push things in either direction but it is another possibility.

Now... shall we get back to the topic at hand?

I think that still falls into Adams failing to maximum an expiring asset.

He made the decision to let the cap space go unused as opposed to taking less to retain.

I'd rather he had taken less than he wanted than get absolutely nothing.

 

[Dingo44]

This is not a court of law. There is no need to "prove" anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

You can't prove that the Pegulas have not been asked to cut a check to acquire a draft pick and they said no, either.

It is all speculation based on what this team did last year and this year.

Last year they made 0 moves to weaponize cap space while ending the season with the most unused cap space in the entire NHL.

This year they made 0 moves to weaponize cap space and they will again end the season with the most unused cap space in the entire NHL.

That means one of two things:

Kevyn Adams let assets expire (cap space) without maximizing them

or

The Pegulas denied Kevyn Adams's request(s) to weaponize cap space to acquire trade capital because they did not want to spend the actual dollars

If there is another option, let me know what you think it was.

It's all speculation based on what didn't happen in the face of evidence that doesn't back up the assertion.

Yeah, I wish the Sabres had weaponized cap space. I tend to think that's more on Adams than Pegula. But either way I don't know and I definitely am not going to accuse someone of something based on nothing.

The players in the NFL apparently don't think Pegula is cheap. I've never heard any NHL players accuse the Pegulas of being cheap. That all comes from a few people on this board.

We shall see when we have to start paying out big money but I don't think using up all your cap space on aging free agents is a good idea. I'm sure they are going to be more careful with for how long they sign FA's.

 

[Chainshot]

I think that still falls into Adams failing to maximum an expiring asset.

He made the decision to let the cap space go unused as opposed to taking less to retain.

I'd rather he had taken less than he wanted than get absolutely nothing.

I would have appreciated that too and yet he has already done the same thing by sitting on Miller and Pysyk at the end of last season rather than take reduced returns. There could very well be a stubbornness to shift to done vs. holding a line regardless.

 

[michaelsaas]

My ideal guy would be Weegar, he just checks all the boxes for what they need in the top 4. That said I doubt Calgary trades him, and if they do I'm sure there would be considerable interest.

Realistically, with what Adams has done with UFA's so far I don't expect a big name. If he addresses RD, maybe Holl is someone he targets. He seems like a Lyubushkin type who is accustomed to playing over 20 minutes a game on a good team, blocks shots, PK's, hits and plays that shutdown kind of role.

I don't mean to pick on your post, but I don't understand when people say they don't expect Adams to get big name UFAs when his first few months on the job he signed Taylor Hall.

It obviously was a bad signing but he was inarguably a big name UFA at the time.

 

[Djp]

The market wasn't there, AZ only got a 3rd for eating some of Kanes contract
MTL got a 5th for Bonino
MIN got a 5th for Orlov
MIN got a 4th for ROR

Nothing really game breaking for us.

And I doubt we wanted to help TML, NYR, PIT and BOS get better.

ROR didn’t have much in real $$$ owed which plays a big role in pass through compensation. Tarasenko real money was near $6M so it would have cost something to include a middle man who would be paying $1M in real money. ROR was only around $75K in salary to pay out.

If they dip into UFA, JT Compher for Jost upgrading - he becomes 3C for defensive matchups and PKing duty specifically but gives them flexibility to play him down the lineup to flip possession or up the lineup with more scoring oriented players.

Defense, still more interested in trading rather than spending a ton in free agency.

It depends on the draft. If they draft a D with their 1st they might be looking at short term stuff vs long term stuff like a UFA would want. I know the market isn’t great.

I would also caution that using how they spend is going to be contingent on what those individual franchises make. The NFL is a cash cow with their television deal. If they're spending on the team or improvements on that side of the house, it goes along with that side also bringing in the money to make it possible/worthwhile. Let's not act like the Sabres haven't been a financial drain with how multiple GMs essentially lit Terry's money on fire while driving fans away with an increasingly worse product. The economies of the two teams are different in part because their revenues and expenses are different.

I agree. Paying salary caps are very different. NFL teams cover the players salary just on tv money while in the nhl it’s what 50%?

one thing Pegs did was administrative consolidation. This will be a big negative if he was going to sell off the Sabres.

Retaining salary as a pass through on any of those deals that happened the last two years like the Kane to the Rangers deal.

The Andrew Ladd to Arizona deal.

There have been lots of moves that Adams did not make that would have only cost them $$$ for assets. Nobody knows that the Pegulas stopped Adams from making those moves. But, that would be a reasonable thought to enter people's heads.

What reason is there to not make something like that happen at all with a team with way more cap space than they knew what to do with?

That the team with the most unused cap space in the entire league the past two years failing to make even A move that "weaponized cap space" doesn't seem fishy to you? At all?

Buffalo was fine taking LTIR. Thry didn’t want an added warm body.

 

[BFLO]

Let's walk this conversation back a few steps.

Being a team on a current budget is very different than having cheap owners. For me, I have never once speculated that TP wouldn't spend the money to retain the team's young rising stars, or that he would not spend to the cap again in the future.

Forbes says that he lost 1.4 billion or 20% of his wealth in 2020, and the Sabres were losing massive amounts of cash as well, so cutting back the free-spending would make sense.

Some folks on these boards do believe that the Pegulas are just cheap, despite the historical evidence to the contrary.

Some swear that there is no budget constraints and the frugal spending by Adams is just a side-effect of his rebuild plan.

Personally I am with @RefsIdeas on this one and he articulated the situation better than I did. I just do not believe Adams has the open check book his predecessors had - and this means that he has to be a bit more conservative with his spending since the pandemic hit. I also think that he will never have to trade young rising talent due to contract costs unless it is because he has the team at max cap.

Why I brought it up is because I think it is important that we have realistic financial expectations when we are talking about UFA options. A massive UFA shopping spree is not in this teams near future imo, and I feel discussions should reflect the real situation surrounding the team.

Pegula cut costs to the bone during that period of uncertainty in 2020 after the markets crashed and before they recovered.

His net worth has more than doubled since the lows of 2020. He fell below $4b and is now estimated at $7-$8b depending on source.

I too think that he'll start spending again at some point... but when? He could afford to lose $100m a season on the Sabres and his net would continue to rise under current market conditions.

 

[Jim Bob]

It's all speculation based on what didn't happen in the face of evidence that doesn't back up the assertion.

Yeah, I wish the Sabres had weaponized cap space. I tend to think that's more on Adams than Pegula. But either way I don't know and I definitely am not going to accuse someone of something based on nothing.

The players in the NFL apparently don't think Pegula is cheap. I've never heard any NHL players accuse the Pegulas of being cheap. That all comes from a few people on this board.

We shall see when we have to start paying out big money but I don't think using up all your cap space on aging free agents is a good idea. I'm sure they are going to be more careful with for how long they sign FA's.

Saying that the Pegulas could be spending less lately on the Sabres than they had previously is not based on nothing.

It is based on things like having the most unused cap space two years in a row and all the layoffs they asked Kevyn Adams to make on day 1 as Sabres GM.

Those things actually happened and they both saved the Pegulas money.

Buffalo was fine taking LTIR. Thry didn’t want an added warm body.

And they didn't take on a shorter term LTIRetired deal outside of Bishop to get above the cap floor for FCs (aka nothing).

 

[Jim Bob]

I know Compher is a popular UFA C idea. But, I do wonder about Toews as a C that can win faceoffs and add veteran leadership.

 

[TehDoak]

This. This is the guy you way overpay for short term. Whatever he wants, get him in that dressing room. He fills that bottom 6 center role to a tee that we need. He's a monster on faceoffs and he can show the young guys the commitment it takes to win.

 

[BuiltTagonTough]

Hesitant to sign the guy who was quiet about sexual abuse in the locker room then defended Chicago management after the fact for his "leadership" ability.

 

[Zman5778]

This. This is the guy you way overpay for short term. Whatever he wants, get him in that dressing room. He fills that bottom 6 center role to a tee that we need. He's a monster on faceoffs and he can show the young guys the commitment it takes to win.

He was also front and center in the Beach cover up. Do not want that kind of leadership in the room.

 

[Dingo44]

Saying that the Pegulas could be spending less lately on the Sabres than they had previously is not based on nothing.

It is based on things like having the most unused cap space two years in a row and all the layoffs they asked Kevyn Adams to make on day 1 as Sabres GM.

Those things actually happened and they both saved the Pegulas money.


And they didn't take on a shorter term LTIRetired deal outside of Bishop to get above the cap floor for FCs (aka nothing).

Not being willing to keep throwing money away is not the same as cheap.

 

[CowbellConray]

For the Pegula loses money on this team truthers…

the value of the team has more than tripled since he bought it. And will rise again when Ottawa sells.

Hes been raking in literal hundreds of millions in value at the cost of a small liquid loss.

Don’t let billionaires trick you into believing they lose money. They don’t.

Ok. Valuation of a product doesnt mean he needs to look to the side at lost real time cash liquidation.

We were at risk of LOSING the team outright when Pegula bought them, and specifically said he is not moving the Sabres as long as he lives. He spent bonus heavy upfront cash in his first few years with the team, then went through several coaches (stacking their unemployment payouts as well), and had no issues giving out big contracts to players already on the team.

After a decade of poor play, poor management by GMs and poor coaching, he cut down spending and dumped his focus into his winning organization - the Bills. Where he has shown a willingness to spend to try to push the product over the edge.

He brought in Adams because he liked the way he thought and carried himself. Did he also bring him in because he is a yes man? Maybe - I'm sure that's part of it. But who doesn't hire yes men? Ive hired plenty of people and I always stick to the ones who have an alignment with my own on how to pursue our jobs. I'm sure Adams talked about a ground up plan, investing in talent within, and moving forward once we knew we had a foundation, which matches Beane and likely Pegula's ways of working.

Am I bummed we didn't make the playoffs? Absolutely. I'm married to Lightning fans, who have had success the entire time my team has been floundering. However, for the first time in a decade, those Lightning fans mention how good the Sabres are looking, how "you guys have some serious pieces", and how we are an ascending franchise. Honestly, that's a nice change of pace from the shit we've had for the past 10 years.

Pegula made hires that didn't work out. Pegula also dumped a ton of upfront money into this team back in 2012. Pegula cut down costs to the bare minimum. Pegula also has shown a willingness to spend in a product he believes in through his other sports venture.

At the end of the day, complain about ownership and GM all you want, as we just had our best season in 12 years with one of the youngest rosters in the league and a lot of draft and cap capital to exploit moving forward. I'll stay a tad more positive personally.

 

[Jim Bob]

Not being willing to keep throwing money away is not the same as cheap.

I never said they were cheap.

I did question whether the lack of weaponization of cap space was an Adams decision or a Pegula decision.

Not weaponizing cap space the past two years and adding draft capital is less than ideal.

I also believe that a lot of the decisions to spend less recently does come off as going against the pronouncements that Terry made when buying the team.

 

[Bendium]

If the forwards are mostly healthy (which they were this season) there will be 11 forwards with 70+ games, 2 with 60+, and about 16 games of call-ups.

You need 13 NHL forwards and 11/12/13 will essentially be full time forwards. Girgs/Okposo/somebody else for 11/12/13. Okie is fine as one of the bottom 3 forwards.

Krebs as 4C is also fine especially if a long term injury happens in the top-9 then he can move up.

Who is your 3C?

 

[CowbellConray]

This. This is the guy you way overpay for short term. Whatever he wants, get him in that dressing room. He fills that bottom 6 center role to a tee that we need. He's a monster on faceoffs and he can show the young guys the commitment it takes to win.

I also would like to bring him in - but I doubt he signs here. I wouldnt be surprised if he goes to a contender, maybe the Rangers to unite with Kane or Bruins if Bergeron retires

 

[Jim Bob]

I wonder who they can add with $3B in available cap space for tonight & tomorrow?