Roster thread: Get To Work (2022-2023 Season)

[TehDoak]

I think all of this is valid aside from this one part: Adams called this season a developmental year from the very start. So you're seeing a bunch of young kids struggle down the stretch.

Individual success with marginal team success is due to having so many young kids. When Dahlin is out, his replacement as the 1D is 20 years old and a rookie. Tuch goes out and gets replaced by Quinn. Same circumstance.

That's the explanation. Adams planned a developmental year. We got more along the way and now everyone is mad because we won't make the playoffs. Certainly frustrating but I'm not willing to mortgage the future because the team overachieved and Adams didn't bolster the roster by sending away top end prospects.

The problem is....there is absolutely nothing better for development, team culture, and team identity then winning. It's one thing if we were waylaid by injuries and the youngster struggled. But we've been one of the healthier teams.

Spending on a goalie, defense, and veteran defensive center (and possibly swapping a 2 way winger for Olofsson) could have made a large impact on this team. Instead, we chose the dollar store versions in Lybushkin, Anderson/Comrie, and (eventually) Jost and we are paying the price now.

 

[sabremike]

The year Jamie Benn won the Art Ross with 87 points may not be the best example of the variance in scoring between teams.

True, but the 2015 roster was essentially a middle of the pack AHL team and just about the worst of any post cap era side. The fact Nolan managed to win more than 10 games that season was a borderline miracle.

 

[CaliSabresfan24]

Have to figure something else is afoot for Hino to not even be on the ice for practice like an injury.

Idk how he can be injured if he hasn't been playing tho? I guess at practice but from my understanding nothing has been reported yet. It is still a possibility.

 

[Bendium]

It’s not about undervaluing them. It’s about paying attention to what the GM has said about a million times.

Adams said he was only adding players who fit the age of our core group. He also said he wasn’t giving up our top prospects.


You’re not undervaluing older players if you accept they’re not getting added.

lol. So yeah...I just disagree with him then.

I think ignoring the value of veteran play and influence is a big team development mistake.

 

[Grouch]

I feel bad for Hino... Dude should be playing over VO. Definitely feels like Adams is forcing Donny to play VO to boost the trade value.

Or KO

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

Okposo is a nice guy but he should NOT be back under ANY circumstance. He is done.

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

The problem is....there is absolutely nothing better for development, team culture, and team identity then winning. It's one thing if we were waylaid by injuries and the youngster struggled. But we've been one of the healthier teams.

Spending on a goalie, defense, and veteran defensive center (and possibly swapping a 2 way winger for Olofsson) could have made a large impact on this team. Instead, we chose the dollar store versions in Lybushkin, Anderson/Comrie, and (eventually) Jost and we are paying the price now.

yes we should shelter and coddle the young kids like we did with roy and vanek and poms, because that made them so ready to take over

thats the beauty of all these nonsense points, go back 30 years and youll find 1 example of rushing, protecting, sheltering, throwing to the fire that works and flops every single season

next year itll be a whole new list of woulda shoulda couldas that its so obvious it woulda worked if we had only...

if you got the right goalie it works, and the right defender it works, and the right center it works, and if you stay healthy, and the special teams coach gets changed to the right coach, or if they practiced the right things during practice

or if the kids learn the right lessons from this year about playing a full 82 games, about self preparation and care during home games, maintaining focus through adversity, or does the rookie learn the right lessons while playing as a #1, management realizes player x is much worse than they have him ranked internally and we dont go rasmus ristolainen on joker and vo for years

why is my way always best? because in my head my way is always executed in a perfect world, with perfect information, and everyone wants to play ball on my schedule

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

lol. So yeah...I just disagree with him then.

I think ignoring the value of veteran play and influence is a big team development mistake.

its probably ignoring thats happening, they probably are just ignoring veteran play and influence

thats probably why KO got bought out and Craig got sent to the curb last off season, because Adams jsut ignores the effect of veteran players

not that the professional GM just disagrees with your takes, he probably is ignoring it

 

[Der Jaeger]

The problem is....there is absolutely nothing better for development, team culture, and team identity then winning. It's one thing if we were waylaid by injuries and the youngster struggled. But we've been one of the healthier teams.

Spending on a goalie, defense, and veteran defensive center (and possibly swapping a 2 way winger for Olofsson) could have made a large impact on this team. Instead, we chose the dollar store versions in Lybushkin, Anderson/Comrie, and (eventually) Jost and we are paying the price now.

Some revisionist history here.

Which big time goalie was coming here this off-season?
- Casey DeSmith re-signed
- MAF re-signed
- Husso was traded for and isn't playing well behind a team similar to Buffalo.
- Georgiev was traded for and playing well behind a good Colorado team.
- Campbell wasn't signing here
- Kuemper wasn't signing here.
- Vanecek was traded for. Playing well behind a good NJD team.
- Samsonov is playing well behind a good Toronto team.

The only comparable is Husso. Everyone is mad Adams didn't trade for him. But he's not pulling the Red Wings along. Husso on Buffalo isn't getting them to the playoffs.

Which big time defenseman did the Sabres have a shot at?
- Edler re-signed in LA.
- Troy Stecher was available.
- Leddy re-signed
- Ruuta signed with the Pens. Probably not signing with Buffalo.
- Brendan Smith signed with the Devils.
- Ian Cole signed with the Lightning.
- Manson re-signed with the Avs, was never coming to Buffalo.
- Justin Schultz signed with the Kraken.

Which of these defenseman was coming to Buffalo without an overpayment and fixing things? Ruuta would've been a huge addition, but he wasn't coming to Buffalo. Over 30 and a 2 time Cup winner. He's going to the Pens to keep trying to win.

Which center did Buffalo have a change to bring in to anchor the 3rd of 4th line?
- Nick Paul wasn't leaving Tampa.
- Bjugstad wouldn't have changed anything.
- Domi could've been signed and had a huge year.
- Colin Blackwell was available but he's not turning anything around.
- Ryan Strome isn't a bottom 6 center.
- Darren Helm isn't coming to a team like Buffalo at this stage of his career.
- Curtis Lazar was available but probably not wanting to come back to Buffalo.
- Trocheck wasn't coming to Buffalo and isn't a 3 or 4C.
- Andrew Copp was available.
- Nico Sturm was available.

So, the best Adams gets this off season was a trade for Husso, signing Copp or Sturm, and maybe bringing in Schultz, Smith or Cole on the back end. That isn't turning the ship around. And, those players have to want to come to Buffalo unless isn't a trade.

We can hammer Adams for not bringing in Sturm or Copp or one of the defenders, but they have to want to sign in Buffalo. For all we know, Adams did reach out, but got a deal like he got from Armstrong in Arizona. Overpay big time or the player isn't coming.

The state of the team is such where free agents have to be overpayed to come to Buffalo. Adams has to trade for additions primarily. We know he tried to get Chychrun but the price was way too steep.

We can use hindsight all we want, but you can't force a player to sign just because he'd make the Sabres better. And you can't make another GM give Adams a good deal for Buffalo. So the team is left with development internally and trading for projects.

 

[Chainshot]

Idk how he can be injured if he hasn't been playing tho? I guess at practice but from my understanding nothing has been reported yet. It is still a possibility.

It would be so like them to have someone get hurt in practice in terms of how bad luck has hit them lately.

 

[Sabresbyswords104]

Johan Larsson team in swedish league Down to 2 league. He was someone I always found a very bad hockey player . Amazing he could play in NHL

 

[StrompTroller]

Johan Larsson team in swedish league Down to 2 league. He was someone I always found a very bad hockey player . Amazing he could play in NHL

huh?

 

[Matt Ress]

lol. So yeah...I just disagree with him then.

I think ignoring the value of veteran play and influence is a big team development mistake.

Fair. Maybe we'll see more in the next couple months

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

They need another top 4 RHD who can play 20-21 minutes a night especially if Dahlin goes down. Especially since Samuelsson will likely be injured at the same time too.

 

[Irie]

I think this board has shifted to really undervaluing players that are not under 25. Not sure why. Most players are not even hitting thier prime till 25-27 and are rock solid right thru 33-35 depending on the player. I have zero issue with signing a 27 year old player to a 7 year contract taking them to 35 years old. You could argue that the AAV might be high the last couple years as they slide down a line. However, noone considers when you sign a 23 year old to a 7 year contract you are waiting a few years for them to move UP the lineup.

Currently only 11% of NHL players are playing past the age of 33.

Some of those 11% of all players are rock solid still at 33-35, but most of that 11% should honestly be put out to pasture.

Play the odds.

If you have a player hitting 33, you should expect a massive decline. (like Okposo this year). If that doesn't happen, consider yourself very lucky.

 

[joshjull]

lol. So yeah...I just disagree with him then.

I think ignoring the value of veteran play and influence is a big team development mistake.

Bizarre answer. No one is ignoring the value of vet play.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

Some revisionist history here.

Which big time goalie was coming here this off-season?
- Casey DeSmith re-signed
- MAF re-signed
- Husso was traded for and isn't playing well behind a team similar to Buffalo.
- Georgiev was traded for and playing well behind a good Colorado team.
- Campbell wasn't signing here
- Kuemper wasn't signing here.
- Vanecek was traded for. Playing well behind a good NJD team.
- Samsonov is playing well behind a good Toronto team.

The only comparable is Husso. Everyone is mad Adams didn't trade for him. But he's not pulling the Red Wings along. Husso on Buffalo isn't getting them to the playoffs.

Which big time defenseman did the Sabres have a shot at?
- Edler re-signed in LA.
- Troy Stecher was available.
- Leddy re-signed
- Ruuta signed with the Pens. Probably not signing with Buffalo.
- Brendan Smith signed with the Devils.
- Ian Cole signed with the Lightning.
- Manson re-signed with the Avs, was never coming to Buffalo.
- Justin Schultz signed with the Kraken.

Which of these defenseman was coming to Buffalo without an overpayment and fixing things? Ruuta would've been a huge addition, but he wasn't coming to Buffalo. Over 30 and a 2 time Cup winner. He's going to the Pens to keep trying to win.

Which center did Buffalo have a change to bring in to anchor the 3rd of 4th line?
- Nick Paul wasn't leaving Tampa.
- Bjugstad wouldn't have changed anything.
- Domi could've been signed and had a huge year.
- Colin Blackwell was available but he's not turning anything around.
- Ryan Strome isn't a bottom 6 center.
- Darren Helm isn't coming to a team like Buffalo at this stage of his career.
- Curtis Lazar was available but probably not wanting to come back to Buffalo.
- Trocheck wasn't coming to Buffalo and isn't a 3 or 4C.
- Andrew Copp was available.
- Nico Sturm was available.

So, the best Adams gets this off season was a trade for Husso, signing Copp or Sturm, and maybe bringing in Schultz, Smith or Cole on the back end. That isn't turning the ship around. And, those players have to want to come to Buffalo unless isn't a trade.

We can hammer Adams for not bringing in Sturm or Copp or one of the defenders, but they have to want to sign in Buffalo. For all we know, Adams did reach out, but got a deal like he got from Armstrong in Arizona. Overpay big time or the player isn't coming.

The state of the team is such where free agents have to be overpayed to come to Buffalo. Adams has to trade for additions primarily. We know he tried to get Chychrun but the price was way too steep.

We can use hindsight all we want, but you can't force a player to sign just because he'd make the Sabres better. And you can't make another GM give Adams a good deal for Buffalo. So the team is left with development internally and trading for projects.

So if the Sabres are stuck having to develop from within.... especially goaltenders...... then acquire the best frickin' position coaches possible.

Spend the money there versus on free agents, etc.. (I don't think that expense counts against the cap.... chuckle)

The Sabres need for (at a minimum) a new defense coach, special teams coach AND goaltending coach is obvious.

Last time I checked, Mitch Korn was on staff with Lindy in NJ...... How much does that suck....?!

 

[Irie]

This season was lost last summer, not at the deadline. If people are begrudging Adams for not getting Chycrun/Ekholm, don't. Be mad that he left 18M in cap space on the table and not addressing the D or goal, These issues has proven to be a ticking time bomb that went off in a spectacular fashion down the stretch. The deadline is for finding the last piece to put you over the edge and is done so at the highest cost. The issues that cost us the playoffs were inaction during the summer.

As for the bolded-

The team let Pysyk, Miller, Butcher, and Hagg go and planned to run Power and Lyubushkin as new additions in the top six. There was also the addition of Clague and Pilot, two players that on paper everyone last season thought could be feasible depth and who we hoped would clear waivers (clague).

With how the team played down the stretch last season, it legitimately fit Granato's plan to develop the younger guys and give them the bulk of the responsibility.

You said just yesterday that injuries were not an issue, which is pretty out of touch. This team has had an Old Testament Locust level disaster with the D core injuries this season. Half of their top 6 defensemen have often been out or playing injured all year.

There were guys that weren't healthy enough to practice playing regular season games - do you know how nuts that actually is?

Players that should be capped at 20 minutes playing 30. Even Dahlin is playing poorly, he has nothing left in the tank because injuries have forced him to log unsustainable minutes. . Everyone is saying depth was the issue, but when you are playing your tenth D, there is no team in the league that has the kind of depth to survive that.

Don't get me wrong, I am not pretending their depth was good, but it was amplified by their injury luck. but the reality is that there was not an easy solution that people seem to assume must have been out there - the problem is there were absolutely no depth D available last off-season that would have made a difference that would have cleared waivers. Teams don't trade capable waiver exempt defenders so there really weren't options there.

There really are multiple factors contributing to this years pitfalls, but looking around the league, there are some teams whose top four have missed less than 10 games combined. If Buffalo's D had that kind of injury luck, (like their forward core has had), it is likely this team would be in a vastly different place right now.

 

[Irie]

So if the Sabres are stuck having to develop from within.... especially goaltenders...... then acquire the best frickin' position coaches possible.

Spend the money there versus on free agents, etc.. (I don't think that expense counts against the cap.... chuckle)

The Sabres need for (at a minimum) a new defense coach, special teams coach AND goaltending coach is obvious.

Last time I checked, Mitch Korn was on staff with Lindy in NJ...... How much does that suck....?!

Watching other teams around the league, I can honestly say that the only team in the league that has played as poorly in their own end as Buffalo consistently this season is Anaheim.

Anaheim has three decent goalies, and they are all looking like crap. The difference with Anaheim fans is that they know their goalies are average or slightly above average with good D, so they can identify the problem easier.

This team could probably audition 40+ current goalies in this league and they would likely get the same results as long as the team is playing the same defensively.

Granato is relying on heavy puck pressure through the neutral zone to disrupt the oppositions entrance into the Sabres D zone and counting on it to limit their ability to carry the blueline and set-up.

Some games when the other teams are not executing well, it works. But when other teams outwork them, or the other team executes well, the opposition tends to take the blueline rather easily, and the Sabres are sunk. Once teams set up in the D zone, they tend to have their way with the janky D-zone coverage.

I love Granato's communication skills with the young guys and his philosophy of letting them learn in game and him wanting them to read and react to each situation, but i think it is clear a lot of the players are not fairing very well in the reacting to the situation defense part.

More structure is manadatory for the young kids in their own zone if they are going to right the D and goaltending ship, and that may require at least a new assistant coach at the bare minimum. i think.

 

[Jim Bob]

So if the Sabres are stuck having to develop from within.... especially goaltenders...... then acquire the best frickin' position coaches possible.

Spend the money there versus on free agents, etc.. (I don't think that expense counts against the cap.... chuckle)

The Sabres need for (at a minimum) a new defense coach, special teams coach AND goaltending coach is obvious.

Last time I checked, Mitch Korn was on staff with Lindy in NJ...... How much does that suck....?!

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Mitch is heading up the goalie department with the Islanders and not on staff with the Devils.

And he is not the everyday goalie coach as he has reached the age where he wants more of the Dan Girardi type travel way less role.

 

[TehDoak]

As for the bolded-

The team let Pysyk, Miller, Butcher, and Hagg go and planned to run Power and Lyubushkin as new additions in the top six. There was also the addition of Clague and Pilot, two players that on paper everyone last season thought could be feasible depth and who we hoped would clear waivers (clague).

With how the team played down the stretch last season, it legitimately fit Granato's plan to develop the younger guys and give them the bulk of the responsibility.

You said just yesterday that injuries were not an issue, which is pretty out of touch. This team has had an Old Testament Locust level disaster with the D core injuries this season. Half of their top 6 defensemen have often been out or playing injured all year.

There were guys that weren't healthy enough to practice playing regular season games - do you know how nuts that actually is?

Players that should be capped at 20 minutes playing 30. Even Dahlin is playing poorly, he has nothing left in the tank because injuries have forced him to log unsustainable minutes. . Everyone is saying depth was the issue, but when you are playing your tenth D, there is no team in the league that has the kind of depth to survive that.

Don't get me wrong, I am not pretending their depth was good, but it was amplified by their injury luck. but the reality is that there was not an easy solution that people seem to assume must have been out there - the problem is there were absolutely no depth D available last off-season that would have made a difference that would have cleared waivers. Teams don't trade capable waiver exempt defenders so there really weren't options there.

There really are multiple factors contributing to this years pitfalls, but looking around the league, there are some teams whose top four have missed less than 10 games combined. If Buffalo's D had that kind of injury luck, (like their forward core has had), it is likely this team would be in a vastly different place right now.

Dahlin missed 4 games
Power missed 3 games.
Samuelsson missed 22 games.
Joker missed 22 games

So that's 51 games between the top 4 d-men. That's the equivalent of losing a 2nd pairing guy 15 games into the season. There have been lingering issues and some guys haven't been 100%, but it's not a back breaker. The fact that losing a d-man causes us to have bottom pairing guys playing with Dahlin is the issue. The fact that Joker is a top 4 d-man on a healthy team is an issue. We needed to add a top 4 d-man in the summer and we didn't. Our injuries on D aren't significant enough to say its the issue. The issue is that an injury has Kyle Clague playing top pair minutes.

 

[TehDoak]

Some revisionist history here.

Of course it's revisionist history. We are talking about things that didn't happen.

Which big time goalie was coming here this off-season?
- Casey DeSmith re-signed
- MAF re-signed
- Husso was traded for and isn't playing well behind a team similar to Buffalo.
- Georgiev was traded for and playing well behind a good Colorado team.
- Campbell wasn't signing here
- Kuemper wasn't signing here.
- Vanecek was traded for. Playing well behind a good NJD team.
- Samsonov is playing well behind a good Toronto team.

The only comparable is Husso. Everyone is mad Adams didn't trade for him. But he's not pulling the Red Wings along. Husso on Buffalo isn't getting them to the playoffs.

Which big time defenseman did the Sabres have a shot at?
- Edler re-signed in LA.
- Troy Stecher was available.
- Leddy re-signed
- Ruuta signed with the Pens. Probably not signing with Buffalo.
- Brendan Smith signed with the Devils.
- Ian Cole signed with the Lightning.
- Manson re-signed with the Avs, was never coming to Buffalo.
- Justin Schultz signed with the Kraken.

Which of these defenseman was coming to Buffalo without an overpayment and fixing things? Ruuta would've been a huge addition, but he wasn't coming to Buffalo. Over 30 and a 2 time Cup winner. He's going to the Pens to keep trying to win.

Which center did Buffalo have a change to bring in to anchor the 3rd of 4th line?
- Nick Paul wasn't leaving Tampa.
- Bjugstad wouldn't have changed anything.
- Domi could've been signed and had a huge year.
- Colin Blackwell was available but he's not turning anything around.
- Ryan Strome isn't a bottom 6 center.
- Darren Helm isn't coming to a team like Buffalo at this stage of his career.
- Curtis Lazar was available but probably not wanting to come back to Buffalo.
- Trocheck wasn't coming to Buffalo and isn't a 3 or 4C.
- Andrew Copp was available.
- Nico Sturm was available.

So, the best Adams gets this off season was a trade for Husso, signing Copp or Sturm, and maybe bringing in Schultz, Smith or Cole on the back end. That isn't turning the ship around. And, those players have to want to come to Buffalo unless isn't a trade.

We can hammer Adams for not bringing in Sturm or Copp or one of the defenders, but they have to want to sign in Buffalo. For all we know, Adams did reach out, but got a deal like he got from Armstrong in Arizona. Overpay big time or the player isn't coming.

The state of the team is such where free agents have to be overpayed to come to Buffalo. Adams has to trade for additions primarily. We know he tried to get Chychrun but the price was way too steep.

We can use hindsight all we want, but you can't force a player to sign just because he'd make the Sabres better. And you can't make another GM give Adams a good deal for Buffalo. So the team is left with development internally and trading for projects.

You ever get tired of this?

You can't simply list out all of the transactions and say: SEE, SEE, THERE WEREN'T ANY OPTIONS!

We have zero idea who was available last summer via trade. Here are the facts:

1. The Sabres had 8 top 2 round draft picks in 22/23 in the summer to spend on immediate improvement, they spent 0
2. The Sabres had 25M+ in cap space to spend on free agents/add salary via trade. They spent around 8.5M (Hino, Comrie, Anderson, Lybushkin, Pilut)

And yes, they added Jost later and eventually used a pick on Greenway.

However, given the multitude of needs and the resources available, to spend as little as they did to help the immediate team is unacceptable. It was being cheap and shortsighted. It was going into the season, and it's even more egregious in hindsight because of the breakout performances of Thompson, Cozens, Tuch, and Dahlin. Another wasted season. Not because the players didn't play well, they did. Another season punted away because the front office and ownership wanted to spend the minimum possible this year.

You can simultaneously have a 'development' year while improving the roster both now and in the future. Just because you have a bunch of players on ELCs doesn't mean you can't spend to improve the roster.

 

[Mattilaus]

Watching other teams around the league, I can honestly say that the only team in the league that has played as poorly in their own end as Buffalo consistently this season is Anaheim.

Anaheim has three decent goalies, and they are all looking like crap. The difference with Anaheim fans is that they know their goalies are average or slightly above average with good D, so they can identify the problem easier.

This team could probably audition 40+ current goalies in this league and they would likely get the same results as long as the team is playing the same defensively.

I am not arguing our D needs some work, but the stats do not back up that our goalies would be fine if we had better D.

Our expected goals against is 163 and we have currently let in 177. We are 13.95 goals against above expected. That's third worst in the league and better than only the Sharks and Vancouver. The Ducks, which you used as an example, are middle of the pack at 0.93 goals against above expected.

Their goaltenders are saving about the amount you can expect of them and they still suck. Our goaltenders are not saving the amount you can and should expect, and were close to a playoff spot till mid march. There are several points this season where you can take away one or two of those almost 14 goals against to swing games in our favour, and put us in a position where we are a playoff team.

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[Sabretooth]

Granato is relying on heavy puck pressure through the neutral zone to disrupt the oppositions entrance into the Sabres D zone and counting on it to limit their ability to carry the blueline and set-up.

 

[Bendium]

Bizarre answer. No one is ignoring the value of vet play.

Bizarre? Are we in opposite land? The SABRES are ignoring it, as they have almost none, and literally have kids learning from kids.

Let me guess, you consider the 22 year old Dahlin a vet defenseman.