Roster thread: Get To Work (2022-2023 Season)

[Bendium]

Owen Power is averaging almost 5 minutes more EV TOI per game than Clifton has with the Bruins. Playing Clifton up the lineup would be a projection and nowhere near the same as adding a proven vet like Ekholm.

The effect of Clifton definitely would not be what Ekholm would bring, That said, Chain is right that it is very reasonable to expect that a player like him coming off of a loaded perenial playoff team, probably has the ability to take on more in our lineup, and the winning attitude installed is also invaluable. I have no idea if he can adequately hold down the 4D we are looking for, but no question is an upgrade over our current 4-8.

OK, so who is that player for you?

I honestly do not have a player in mind at the moment. I tend to wait till I hear about players being available and then evaluate whether that works for me and at what cost. For that post I was talking conceptually.

 

[BuiltTagonTough]

I think this board has shifted to really undervaluing players that are not under 25. Not sure why. Most players are not even hitting thier prime till 25-27 and are rock solid right thru 33-35 depending on the player. I have zero issue with signing a 27 year old player to a 7 year contract taking them to 35 years old. You could argue that the AAV might be high the last couple years as they slide down a line. However, noone considers when you sign a 23 year old to a 7 year contract you are waiting a few years for them to move UP the lineup.

A decade of no playoffs and looking towards the future will do that to a fanbase.

Fine with Clifton btw. Even if he ends up not holding down a spot in the Top 4 he's an upgrade over what we have and the experience he would bring is invaluable to a young team hopefully on the rise.

 

[TehDoak]

That isn't to say Adams shouldn't absolutely look for big upgrades during the offseason, just that we can afford to wait for better fitting solutions (even if it is a bit of an overpay) than just what was lurking out there during the TDL.

This season was lost last summer, not at the deadline. If people are begrudging Adams for not getting Chycrun/Ekholm, don't. Be mad that he left 18M in cap space on the table and not addressing the D or goal, These issues has proven to be a ticking time bomb that went off in a spectacular fashion down the stretch. The deadline is for finding the last piece to put you over the edge and is done so at the highest cost. The issues that cost us the playoffs were inaction during the summer.

 

[Bendium]

OK, so who is that player for you?

As an example, and I am in no way saying we should have done this, because we didn't need this position filled.

Bo Horvat, traded for by the Islanders for a 25 year old middle six .5 ppg undersized winger, a second round prospect, and a 1st. Horvat is a .7 PPG, 27 year old 1st/2nd line center with appropriate size and leadership ability. They signed him to a 8 year extension making him 35 going on 36 when its over. This is the kind of trade I have no issue with. He becomes a key core piece, locking in thier top 2 centers. He will hold that spot just fine for most of the contract. At worst he is an expensive high end 3rd line center the last 2 years.

I would have zero issue with getting a 26-28 year old dman that is contracted out to 34-36 year old if they are a legit playoff caliber player in the position you intend to put them.

 

[TehDoak]

It's almost as if Pegula bought the Sabres to kill them, leaving the Bills as the only viable team in the region.

He knew the Wilson's had to sell the Bills and he could overpay. He also knew that a permanently down Sabres would funnel more money to the Bills

I doubt that's the case. The issue is the Bills are self sufficient. So he spent 1.4B on the team....between the TV deals and sold out home games, he isn't spending cash out of his own pocket for payroll every year.

The Pegula's spent just under 200M on the Sabres....and has lost more than that with year to year losses in his 12 years of ownership. Given, when you consider the growth in value of the franchise, he's probably still making money, on paper at least, at some point the Pegula's got sick of eating the Sabres losses year after year. I still hope this is a one a one time cost cutting measure and when we are a consistent playoff team we'll spend to the cap again.

 

[Ace]

I doubt that's the case. The issue is the Bills are self sufficient. So he spent 1.4B on the team....between the TV deals and sold out home games, he isn't spending cash out of his own pocket for payroll every year.

The Pegula's spent just under 200M on the Sabres....and has lost more than that with year to year losses in his 12 years of ownership. Given, when you consider the growth in value of the franchise, he's probably still making money, on paper at least, at some point the Pegula's got sick of eating the Sabres losses year after year. I still hope this is a one a one time cost cutting measure and when we are a consistent playoff team we'll spend to the cap again.

The franchise is worth a lot more now than he paid for it. He may be in the red on liquid cash but he is far in the black in portfolio value. So he should either sell the f***ing thing to someone who won’t be the worst owner in the sport…or invest in his f***ing property.

Dont ever let a billionaire trick you into believing theyre losing money on something. The team is worth over three times what he invested. He’s cheap because that’s never enough.

 

[Chainshot]

 

[BG82]

In hindsight KA did the right thing this deadline by not dealing alot of equity. This team isnt ready with the youth and depth

I think next year its playoffs or bust and the reigns will be off.

Noah Hanifin is a guy I think will fit this team like a glove

 

[slip]

I think this board has shifted to really undervaluing players that are not under 25. Not sure why. Most players are not even hitting thier prime till 25-27 and are rock solid right thru 33-35 depending on the player. I have zero issue with signing a 27 year old player to a 7 year contract taking them to 35 years old. You could argue that the AAV might be high the last couple years as they slide down a line. However, noone considers when you sign a 23 year old to a 7 year contract you are waiting a few years for them to move UP the lineup.

Like this team couldn’t have used the f*** out of a guy like Ekholm.

Maybe more adults in the room is precisely what a young, erratic team needed during the most critical stretch of the season.

It’s ageist I say, ageist!

 

[slip]

The franchise is worth a lot more now than he paid for it. He may be in the red on liquid cash but he is far in the black in portfolio value. So he should either sell the f***ing thing to someone who won’t be the worst owner in the sport…or invest in his f***ing property.

Dont ever let a billionaire trick you into believing theyre losing money on something. The team is worth over three times what he invested. He’s cheap because that’s never enough.

I wish I could buy an asset, mismanage it for 12 years, and watch it double in value.

God bless professional sports monopolies and their ability to reward rank idiocy.

 

[CaliSabresfan24]

I feel bad for Hino... Dude should be playing over VO. Definitely feels like Adams is forcing Donny to play VO to boost the trade value.

 

[slip]

I feel bad for Hino... Dude should be playing over VO. Definitely feels like Adams is forcing Donny to play VO to boost the trade value.

30 goals or bust!

 

[debaser66]

Let's not pretend like the majority of the roster are a bunch of aging vets. The majority of the key players aren't even 25 years old yet.

I'm all good with trying to get a Chychrun or Ekholm. Apparently Adams was too, but throwing away top prospects isn't the way to go.

Making decisions while angry or frustrated seems like a great way to regret moves.

The current Sabres aren't even close to the toxic times during Eichel's tenure.

At some point, they have to commit to a plan, even as rocky as the road might be.

BTW, if we talked in August and said the Sabres would contend all the way to March, where the youthfulness of the roster would cause the team to fall out of contention, most of us would've called that par for the season. It's only now that we're pissed. Seems like a bad time to decide to make moves.

its not that they exceeded expactations, its how they falter at the end, its disappointing and quite unwatchable

 

[Der Jaeger]

I'd say its proper team building

It just goes against the fantasy team building that several advocate for here. In the real world, fantasy teams do not usually win

It's more nuanced than that.

If you ask me if I'd trade a 1st, 2nd, prospect, and player for Ekholm, who would be on the Sabres second pair, I'd agree in principle. If the prospect was Rosen and the player was Jokiharju, then it's a deal. If the prospect is Savoie, Kulich, or Ostlund, then I'm out.

That team missed the playoffs by 1 point and Stamkos was out most of the season.

And this was after they lost in the ECF the year before.

We've had nominal injuries and are going to miss the playoffs by 10 points.

That was a talented team, built well, with a good coach, that caught some bad breaks.

We're a talented team that kept it close through 60 games and imploded down the stretch.

I can add circumstances too. The Sabres are a young team where the majority of key contributors are 25 or younger and are not close to their peak, and they crumbled down the stretch.

 

[debaser66]

I don’t think the organization and players are in this doom and gloom space the fans are. They didn’t contribute to the entire 12 year drought. They see themselves as a young up and coming team as they should.

they certainly notice the empty building and they talked about wanting to bring fans back. its certainly not doom and gloom but am sure they re not in best spirits. they seem lost.

 

[TehDoak]

I can add circumstances too. The Sabres are a young team where the majority of key contributors are 25 or younger and are not close to their peak, and they crumbled down the stretch.

That isn't a circumstance, that is the makeup of the team. There really isn't an excuse to have this much individual success and marginal team success. That is either on the job the GM did putting the team together or coaching.

In our scenario, I'd argue it's a bit of both. We play a high event style that does lead to a lot of scoring, but also leads to a lot of opportunities against. We probably don't hit the offensive highs in a more restrictive system, but I think we'd see more consistent W/L and less streakiness. However, I do feel the system Granato has in place is viable and can be dialed back a bit in the summer, however, the roster needs quite a bit more tweaking. I mentioned multiple times that this wasn't a well put together team, too many similar style players and not enough players that are good in their own zone.

Overall though, I'd put the majority of blame on the GM. Leaving 18M of cap space unused puts them at a disadvantage out of the gate. Last summer they had 4 1sts and 4 2nd's in the 2022/23 drafts to improve the team, it wasn't until this deadline they used one on immediate help. Not addressing D, goaltending, or the PK in a significant way last summer really has hurt the team all season. We are bottom 6 in SP%, bottom 5 in PK, bottom 5 in goals against.

I certainly understand that this isn't our year to go all in. And I think all of us would have raised an eye if Adams was out there going Tim Murray on those picks. But, Adams certainly should have done more than he did to address the problem areas.

 

[Der Jaeger]

That isn't a circumstance, that is the makeup of the team. There really isn't an excuse to have this much individual success and marginal team success. That is either on the job the GM did putting the team together or coaching.

In our scenario, I'd argue it's a bit of both. We play a high event style that does lead to a lot of scoring, but also leads to a lot of opportunities against. We probably don't hit the offensive highs in a more restrictive system, but I think we'd see more consistent W/L and less streakiness. However, I do feel the system Granato has in place is viable and can be dialed back a bit in the summer, however, the roster needs quite a bit more tweaking. I mentioned multiple times that this wasn't a well put together team, too many similar style players and not enough players that are good in their own zone.

Overall though, I'd put the majority of blame on the GM. Leaving 18M of cap space unused puts them at a disadvantage out of the gate. Last summer they had 4 1sts and 4 2nd's in the 2022/23 drafts to improve the team, it wasn't until this deadline they used one on immediate help. Not addressing D, goaltending, or the PK in a significant way last summer really has hurt the team all season. We are bottom 6 in SP%, bottom 5 in PK, bottom 5 in goals against.

I certainly understand that this isn't our year to go all in. And I think all of us would have raised an eye if Adams was out there going Tim Murray on those picks. But, Adams certainly should have done more than he did to address the problem areas.

I think all of this is valid aside from this one part: Adams called this season a developmental year from the very start. So you're seeing a bunch of young kids struggle down the stretch.

Individual success with marginal team success is due to having so many young kids. When Dahlin is out, his replacement as the 1D is 20 years old and a rookie. Tuch goes out and gets replaced by Quinn. Same circumstance.

That's the explanation. Adams planned a developmental year. We got more along the way and now everyone is mad because we won't make the playoffs. Certainly frustrating but I'm not willing to mortgage the future because the team overachieved and Adams didn't bolster the roster by sending away top end prospects.

 

[joshjull]

I think this board has shifted to really undervaluing players that are not under 25. Not sure why. Most players are not even hitting thier prime till 25-27 and are rock solid right thru 33-35 depending on the player. I have zero issue with signing a 27 year old player to a 7 year contract taking them to 35 years old. You could argue that the AAV might be high the last couple years as they slide down a line. However, noone considers when you sign a 23 year old to a 7 year contract you are waiting a few years for them to move UP the lineup.

It’s not about undervaluing them. It’s about paying attention to what the GM has said about a million times.

Adams said he was only adding players who fit the age of our core group. He also said he wasn’t giving up our top prospects.


You’re not undervaluing older players if you accept they’re not getting added.

 

[sabremike]

It's more nuanced than that.

If you ask me if I'd trade a 1st, 2nd, prospect, and player for Ekholm, who would be on the Sabres second pair, I'd agree in principle. If the prospect was Rosen and the player was Jokiharju, then it's a deal. If the prospect is Savoie, Kulich, or Ostlund, then I'm out.

I can add circumstances too. The Sabres are a young team where the majority of key contributors are 25 or younger and are not close to their peak, and they crumbled down the stretch.

The 14-15 Sabres would rank high on any list of teams in NHL history. They were specifically built with the goal of losing as many games as possible, going as far as to trade for Chad Johnson because he was considered the worst goalie in the league. Do you know how many times they conceded 7 that season? Once. This team did it 4 times in a 3 week span. This isn't a young team thing, this is a badly coached and mentally fragile at 2007 Mets level thing.

 

[Chainshot]

The 14-15 Sabres would rank high on any list of teams in NHL history. They were specifically built with the goal of losing as many games as possible, going as far as to trade for Chad Johnson because he was considered the worst goalie in the league. Do you know how many times they conceded 7 that season? Once. This team did it 4 times in a 3 week span. This isn't a young team thing, this is a badly coached and mentally fragile at 2007 Mets level thing.

The year Jamie Benn won the Art Ross with 87 points may not be the best example of the variance in scoring between teams.

 

[Ace]

But don’t spend money to fill out your team

 

[Matt Ress]

Is it too early to revisit our season beginning predictions?

 

[Dubi Doo]

Is it too early to revisit our season beginning predictions?

I do believe it's against the law to look at preseason predictions before the season is over. I won't rat on you, though!

 

[Chainshot]

I feel bad for Hino... Dude should be playing over VO. Definitely feels like Adams is forcing Donny to play VO to boost the trade value.

Have to figure something else is afoot for Hino to not even be on the ice for practice like an injury.

 

[Der Jaeger]

The 14-15 Sabres would rank high on any list of teams in NHL history. They were specifically built with the goal of losing as many games as possible, going as far as to trade for Chad Johnson because he was considered the worst goalie in the league. Do you know how many times they conceded 7 that season? Once. This team did it 4 times in a 3 week span. This isn't a young team thing, this is a badly coached and mentally fragile at 2007 Mets level thing.

Facts are right but the conclusion doesn't necessarily follow.

Adams traded for Greenway on March 3, which was a decent enough of a pick up to get the Sabres mentally where they needed to be. The play the next night and beat the Lightning 5-3.

The train came off the tracks agains the Oilers and Islanders. Back to back 3-2 losses. Huge let down against the Stars followed, with another heartbreaking loss against the Rangers. Came back strong against the Leafs, but lost another OT game against the Caps. That effectively put them outside of the playoff race. Next three games are let downs.

That's the sign of a young team.