Do we need to rehash the compost that was the last decade plus of mismanagement?
Roster thread: Get To Work (2022-2023 Season)
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Do we need to rehash the compost that was the last decade plus of mismanagement?
I'm hoping for a LHD that can push Bryson or Clague into the press box and help draw down the minutes of the top three to something capped around 22-ish minutes a night max instead of these 28 minute slogs.
As a caveat, I don't yet think Clague's able to work away from Power to be any better than what they've gotten out of Bryson AND that Jokiharju is the better partner for Power to make the top four work in a more balanced fashion. Whoever of the two they keep as the 7 goes to the pressbox, the other goes on waivers.
I'd also like a forward who is either A) more dedicated to the cycle (ie. physical) or B) faster in game conditions that some of the players on their misfit line. I don't see that as being an easy add since we already know Hino is fast (but does not contest space with or without the puck) and Asplund can be good on the cycle (but this year has not been). That forward may not need to come from outside the team either.
Puppa2Miller
Registered User
- Oct 4, 2007
- 1,242
- 701
Its what we like to call….bullshit. He just keeps moving the goalposts so he can keep bitching about something. He said all offseason Adams was terrible, we were going to suck and were bascially tanking. Now that things are coming together we’re missing out on our one year window.
Right. First, it was KA’s lack of moves was bad because our team was terrible and other rebuilding teams passed us. Now, it’s KA’s lack of moves was bad because our team is actually really good and it’s a wasted opportunity.
Talk about changing goal posts to the opposite side of the field. From “the team sucks…make a move to improve” to “the team is really good and has a window to compete…make a move to push us over the edge”. Geez
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Old Navy Goat
Registered User
At least they keep the they're cheap and Pegula's holding the purse strings too tight narrative going strong
Uberpecker
Registered User
- Mar 3, 2011
- 3,784
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Don't put words in my mouth.
No "false concerns" as far as I can see. It's pretty simple, really:
Mittelstadt is a natural center who has the skill and ability to drive a top 2 line. That's very valuable to many a team in the league, less so, however, for the Sabres, who have alternatives as well as an upcoming logjam of skilled forwards on the horizon.
Sure you can play him in a lesser role like we do right now, but that's not necessarily good asset management, when at the same time we have a big hole in our defense.
Hence, Mitts should be on the table if the right deal for a top 4 RHD presents itself.
If we can get that kind of dman for lesser assets, even better, I gladly keep Mitts.
To summerize:
Casey Mittelstadt is
1. a valuable player capable of playing an important position (scoring line center)
2. not needed in that position on the Sabres
3. therefore an expendable asset that should be on the table for the right deal.
joshjull
Registered User
I’ll be brutally honest.
1) Granato
*Botts hires Krueger as head coach for the 19-20 season. Who then hires Granato and the rest of his staff. I’m sure he consulted with Botts on his staff but he was the driving force. Then Granato spent his one season under Botts/Krueger implementing Krueger’s system. Which looks nothing like what he does as our head coach.
*Then Botts gets fired. Adams is hired as GM and shares his GM duties with Krueger going into the 20-21 season. Granato is still an assistant implementing Krueger’s system to start the season.
*Half way through the season Krueger is fired. Granato named interim head coach and Adams assumes full control of hockey ops. Adams goes with youth and Granato completely changes theIr system.
*Through the end of the season and into the offseason Adams conducts an extensive coaching search with his new associate GM Karmanos.
*After the search Adams names Granato as permanent Head coach going into the 21-22 season. His first NHL coaching gig.
That sequence of events makes it pretty clear Adams is the one who deserves credit for Granato being our HEAD coach. Repeatedly posting “Botts hired Granato” doesn’t dispute that and its not even a completely accurate framing.
In all honesty, its pretty daft to argue Botts gets credit for a head coach hired a year after he got fired because he was an assistant coach for one year of Botts tenure. If anything it shows how clueless Botts was at identifying head coaching talent.
2) The Players
Every new GM taking over a hockey ops they weren’t a part of inherits two things; a NHL roster and a prospect pool. They had zero hand in acquiring anyone in either group yet both will play a huge role in their plans for the next several years. It would be impossible for that not to be the case (especially the prospects). Its how the NHL works. Yet this daft (I’m being kind) notion exists that the new GM somehow doesn’t get credit for his work or plans simply because of the players/prospects he inherited.
Here is a honest breakdown of contributing members of the roster
Adams acquired (11)
Power
Tuch
Quinn
Peterka
Jost
Krebs
Hino
Boosh
Anderson
Comrie
Clague
Botts acquired/Adams developed or developing(8)
Dahlin
Tage
Cozens
Sammy
Mitts
Joker
Bryson
UPL
Botts acquired/Adams salvaged (1)
Skinner
Murray acquired/Adams developing(2)
Fitzgerald
Asplund
Murray acquired/Botts developed (1)
Olofsson
Murray acquired (1)
Okposo
Regier acquired (1)
Girgs
Botts gets credit for acquiring the players he acquired but Adams did the lions share of the work (between acquiring and developing )to shape this roster into what it is.
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joshjull
Registered User
Put words in your mouth?
Well if you don’t like the phrase “false concerns”. Then how about a false sense of urgency to trade Mitts.
Nothing you’ve posted to justify trading Mitts holds up.
1) He’s not blocking Krebs
2) He doesn’t need to be a top 6 center or even a center to contribute.
3) there is no forward logjam happening any time soon.
StrompTroller
Registered User
I just love to play devil's advocate so....who drafted Eichel because that cancels out Tuch and Krebs from your adam's list.(if you're going to include inherited high draft picks like Power I can play this game back) Who traded ROR to get Tage?
Do .....
Hino
Boosh
Anderson
Comrie
Clague
really move the needle in determining the status of what a GM has done lol?
Don't get me wrong I agree with you 100% but your list can be cut to pieces easily with a different mindset.
Weltschmerz
Front Running Fan
- Apr 22, 2007
- 5,570
- 3,746
If Mitts is not needed and trated for D who is gonna replace him? We have lots of prospects, but our forward depth is not that great. If JJ and Ouinn keep slumping and Mitts is gone where is the secondary scoring coming from?
joshjull
Registered User
Thats not playing devils’ advocate. Thats you not understanding the point being made. I’m not trying to be snarky. But the bolded is literally a perfect example of what I’m taking issue with in my post.
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truthbluth
Registered User
- Feb 2, 2011
- 7,768
- 7,377
Not sure how we're having the GM debate in the Roster thread, but, to sprinkle a little on top....
Murray, in retrospect, was probably a little worse than we'd thought. Botts was, in retrospect, probably a little better than we thought, though flawed enough (Krueger is the unforgivable stain on his tenure) that I don't believe he was ever going to turn the team around. Kevyn Adams, when he started as GM, was so in over his head that he was in danger of falling below those two in the ranking of all time Sabres GMs. But, and this is what separates Kev from the other two, he fixed the culture.
I've never worked in hockey, but I've been in software for 20 years, so I can equate it to that.
I've seen an ace programmer get promoted to manager when it was clear all they ever wanted to do was continue to program (Tim Murray/Scouting)
I've seen a Business school wunderkind. Gushed over by senior management, and elevated to a position of leadership because they knew how to drop buzzwords and work spreadsheets but ultimately have absolutely no idea how to actually lead people (Botterill)
And I've seen a guy who wasn't a particularly good programmer, despite working very hard it, but great in a meeting and great at forming relationships get promoted because the people around him just liked him. Become a manager, and spend most of that time, just listening to his direct reports, being transparent about what he knows and what he doesn't know. He succeeded despite having no great technical skill or academic pedigree. He just knew how to lead people that were smarter than him. (Kev)
Look, Kev is no great talent evaluator, and most of us end up on these boards because that's what we like to do. So it's hard to give him credit for the important work that he's done, which is build a team culture from scratch. What Kev took over was a toxic environment. And he's fixed that. He deserves credit for that, maybe more so than for a roster that frankly doesn't look a whole hell of a lot different on paper than the ones Botts trotted out. So, it's ok to be critical of Kevyn's roster building, in the sense that he's no Doug Armstrong, but he's saved the Sabres as far as I'm concerned, and I was pretty close to being done with them forever.
Murray, in retrospect, was probably a little worse than we'd thought. Botts was, in retrospect, probably a little better than we thought, though flawed enough (Krueger is the unforgivable stain on his tenure) that I don't believe he was ever going to turn the team around. Kevyn Adams, when he started as GM, was so in over his head that he was in danger of falling below those two in the ranking of all time Sabres GMs. But, and this is what separates Kev from the other two, he fixed the culture.
I've never worked in hockey, but I've been in software for 20 years, so I can equate it to that.
I've seen an ace programmer get promoted to manager when it was clear all they ever wanted to do was continue to program (Tim Murray/Scouting)
I've seen a Business school wunderkind. Gushed over by senior management, and elevated to a position of leadership because they knew how to drop buzzwords and work spreadsheets but ultimately have absolutely no idea how to actually lead people (Botterill)
And I've seen a guy who wasn't a particularly good programmer, despite working very hard it, but great in a meeting and great at forming relationships get promoted because the people around him just liked him. Become a manager, and spend most of that time, just listening to his direct reports, being transparent about what he knows and what he doesn't know. He succeeded despite having no great technical skill or academic pedigree. He just knew how to lead people that were smarter than him. (Kev)
Look, Kev is no great talent evaluator, and most of us end up on these boards because that's what we like to do. So it's hard to give him credit for the important work that he's done, which is build a team culture from scratch. What Kev took over was a toxic environment. And he's fixed that. He deserves credit for that, maybe more so than for a roster that frankly doesn't look a whole hell of a lot different on paper than the ones Botts trotted out. So, it's ok to be critical of Kevyn's roster building, in the sense that he's no Doug Armstrong, but he's saved the Sabres as far as I'm concerned, and I was pretty close to being done with them forever.
Jim Bob
RIP RJ
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Jim Bob
RIP RJ
32 Thoughts & Trade Deadline Names
Marek said that the Yotes are in no hurry to move Chychrun.
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Jim Bob
RIP RJ
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I would be really curious if Ekholm could be a really good partner for Power on the second pair.
I like him as a D target over Chychrun at this point.
WhereAreTheCookies
Registered User
Ekholm has only played significant minutes on the right side once in his career, back in 17-18. His numbers seem to be far better when he plays on the left also as he usually only logs 30 or 40 minutes total on the right side. Unless the idea is to move Power to the right side or they are super confident Ek can play either side effectively I don't know how well Ekholm realistically works.2023 Trade Deadline Countdown: What is the market for Mattias Ekholm?
What does the big, rangy blueliner bring, which teams are the best fits, and what would be a realistic return?
I would be really curious if Ekholm could be a really good partner for Power on the second pair.
I like him as a D target over Chychrun at this point.
Doug Prishpreed
Registered User
Justin Braun does not have a NTC. He's also a bad player who wouldn't help this team at all though.
Ekholm is regressing and between that and is contract he'd be a whipping boy around here in short order - plus I'd hate to think what we'd have to give up.
Any type of D available in a trade that could improve our team is going to be very expensive right now because there is a lot of competition - and as nice as it sounds we're not in a position to be trading a bunch of futures to "win now" when we are not in legitimate competition for the Cup - unless things drastically get better between now and the trade deadline.
Jim Bob
RIP RJ
Power has been pretty fluid between the left and right side since Clague has become his partner.
Having Power playing his offside is less than ideal. But, I'm not sure what better option will be out there for a strong defensive D that can be Power's Samuelsson.
It's not like Seattle is moving Adam Larsson anytime soon, for example.
Jim Bob
RIP RJ
Looking at his possession numbers, I do not see regression from him.
Given that Sabres fans understand why Samuelsson got his extension, I think fans would understand why Ekholm gets $6.25M per despite not putting up huge offensive numbers.
As long as he provides a solid presence next to Power, I doubt the contract would be an issue.
And as far as acquisition cost, it seems like it would be less than Chychrun by a sizable amount because he doesn't put up big offensive numbers.
There is no regression in Ekholm's game. There is the fear he could hit an age wall but that hasn't been realized.
Zman5778
Moderator
I'm not sure it's a "sizable" amount, but it would be less than Chych for sure.
Ekholm is EXACTLY what we're looking for. A defense-first guy who can then anchor the 3rd pair as he ages. Maybe the contract gets a bit onerous at the end, but there are means to take care of these things.
I'm much, much, much more interested in acquiring Ekholm than Chychrun
Jim Bob
RIP RJ
The Yotes reportedly want a 1st, a high end prospect (1st equivalent), plus more.
It wouldn't surprise me if you could get Ekholm for just a 1st or a high end prospect alone.
Doug Prishpreed
Registered User
Play him on the left on the non-Power pairing then -- we can afford the luxury while we wait for some of these prospects to get their bit contracts.
Sammy - Dahlin
Power - Joki
Ekholm -- Claugue/Lybushkin/Bryson
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