Roster Thread (2023-2024 Season)

[joshjull]

I do in fact disagree with the approach they wanted to take

Duly noted and its been entered in the ledger.

 

[Fearnot]

Watching the Winter Classic...man we just feel so far away.

Dumb Vegas and Seattle stealing our Will's. Can we have borgen and carrier back please.

 

[Irie]

When your best argument is an unknowable hypothetical, it’s not very strong. It’s a substance-less blanket criticism that could be applied literally anytime. Are we going to say the Comrie signing was good because he could have traded for Jack Campbell? I’ll concede that Adams deserves some credit for not making a bad trade. But that’s not a useful lens for evaluating the moves he did make.

My only interest in the Stillman trade is in the greater context of evaluating the entirety of the front office’s competence. I’m certainly not fixated on it. And I’m happy there’s a competitive player in the organization. But I think @toddkaz is right in that the context and timing is very relevant. This is a fine trade from an organizational tinkering standpoint, but it was a useless trade in the context of acquiring an impact NHL player at the deadline to help the team push into the playoffs.

Personally, I am still floored at the skeleton pro scouting crew this organization has. According to my ten seconds of Googling, most teams have three times the pro scouting staff that Buffalo has. Perhaps Adams is reluctant to swing hard on a deal that might actually impact the team because he realizes he’s simply not well informed on the players he could potentially acquire. But absolving Adams of some responsibility for the shittiness of the Sabres through that line of reasoning is kind of a Pyrrhic victory. Just speaks to worse problems with the Sabres. A GM not equipped with the resources needed to do his job.

Is it unknowable? Adams said the prices were much higher that he was comfortable paying. Multiple other GMs came out and said everyone is looking for the same thing and the market prices were ridiculous. The majority of the teams in the league were looking for what the Sabres were looking for. The reported ask for Chychrun was Benson+Kulich/Savoie+. The evidence all clearly points to very bad trade territory. I do not see how we do not know that the prices were terrible.

I am not an Adams fan, I just happen to believe that "no moves" are better than "terrible moves", and with Terry Pegula running the show and placing himself in the team president role, having a GM that is not pursuing "Ville Leinos" and acting as a buffer to the Owner's whims is really important.

This board sees Adams as the problem, I see Pegula as the main issue, and saving the team from him is priority number one.

As far as on ice performance, this board is telling me:

1.) This team can't compete as built.

That is bullshit. We have all witnessed this team compete and perform well at times. There are a lot of great players here, but they are puck chasing and have zero defensive strategy, communication or continuity. That is all a coaching issue.

2.) "Adams has assembled a team that is uncoachable".

This argument is the pinnacle of the stupid arguments that have been put forth on this board this year. Every player in this organization is coachable, but they have a coach who after 200 games still said he "has not had time to install a defensive system"..... and we think the problem is the players? This is crazytown level of talk.

3.) "Adams didn't do his job and acquire one or two players, that is why this team is struggling".

The team is not struggling because Adams failed to bring in #4 RHD or another average goalie or a bottom six player. They are not playing as a team. They are all out of position, defending terribly, making poor decisions and terrible reads. The sad thing is watching yesterdays game, the players are all getting WORSE at playing team hockey.

I initially liked Granato, and I loved the culture he brought to the room. I had been calling for upgrades at the assistant levels for two years and keeping him, but now it is clear to me that every day he remains head coach the players are going to become worse at pro hockey. His focus does not translate to the NHL and he has to go. If Adams won't make a coaching change, then Adams has to go as well.

And yes, you most likely are correct, Adams or any other GM that come here will not have the proper resources to do his job properly, and that is directly on Terry Pegula as owner and president, unfortunately we are stuck with him. In my eyes, the immediate issue is a failing coaching system. I would like to see how the players Adams assembled could play under a legitimate pro coach, I think the results would surprise a lot of people in here.

 

[The Red Helmet]

From what I have been reading on the this board if the Sabres wanted to move Jeff Skinner, he would only accept a trade to Toronto and a buy out at the end of the season may be the best option. I feel like if we are just going to buy him out, why not try to move him to Toronto and eat half of his salary. That said would Toronto be interested in Skinner at $4-5 million for the remainder of that contract? I think the Sabres could easily eat half that money and won't have any problem when it comes to signing guys in the future. Maybe the last year of it the contract they have to to do a little work but I don't think it would be a problem cap wise. It would be much better than having that dead money on the cap for 6 years.

I know Skinner doesn't play defense but he can put the puck in the net and going into the forward group maybe he could be sheltered enough where his defensive play won't be such a big deal. The Sabres would still probably have to take back some salary to make it work but would this type of deal work for Toronto.

If I'm way off that is fine but its just an idea. Is there any way a this type of deal could work.

 

[OkimLom]

From what I have been reading on the this board if the Sabres wanted to move Jeff Skinner, he would only accept a trade to Toronto and a buy out at the end of the season may be the best option. I feel like if we are just going to buy him out, why not try to move him to Toronto and eat half of his salary. That said would Toronto be interested in Skinner at $4-5 million for the remainder of that contract? I think the Sabres could easily eat half that money and won't have any problem when it comes to signing guys in the future. Maybe the last year of it the contract they have to to do a little work but I don't think it would be a problem cap wise. It would be much better than having that dead money on the cap for 6 years.

I know Skinner doesn't play defense but he can put the puck in the net and going into the forward group maybe he could be sheltered enough where his defensive play won't be such a big deal. The Sabres would still probably have to take back some salary to make it work but would this type of deal work for Toronto.

If I'm way off that is fine but its just an idea. Is there any way a this type of deal could work.

Realistically? I don’t see this working out mainly because Toronto is already in cap hell and still need to decide what to do with Nylander. Also, they are looking to re-shape their defense core. Toronto is a bad fit IMO, as a trade partner.

I think if you are able to have Jeff waive his NMC to someone you will more than likely needing to eat a portion of his remaining salary no matter the team. It will probably be the only path to getting rid of him If he was healthy.

 

[ForsbergMoDo21]

Is it unknowable? Adams said the prices were much higher that he was comfortable paying. Multiple other GMs came out and said everyone is looking for the same thing and the market prices were ridiculous. The majority of the teams in the league were looking for what the Sabres were looking for. The reported ask for Chychrun was Benson+Kulich/Savoie+. The evidence all clearly points to very bad trade territory. I do not see how we do not know that the prices were terrible.

I am not an Adams fan, I just happen to believe that "no moves" are better than "terrible moves", and with Terry Pegula running the show and placing himself in the team president role, having a GM that is not pursuing "Ville Leinos" and acting as a buffer to the Owner's whims is really important.

This board sees Adams as the problem, I see Pegula as the main issue, and saving the team from him is priority number one.

As far as on ice performance, this board is telling me:

1.) This team can't compete as built.

That is bullshit. We have all witnessed this team compete and perform well at times. There are a lot of great players here, but they are puck chasing and have zero defensive strategy, communication or continuity. That is all a coaching issue.

2.) "Adams has assembled a team that is uncoachable".

This argument is the pinnacle of the stupid arguments that have been put forth on this board this year. Every player in this organization is coachable, but they have a coach who after 200 games still said he "has not had time to install a defensive system"..... and we think the problem is the players? This is crazytown level of talk.

3.) "Adams didn't do his job and acquire one or two players, that is why this team is struggling".

The team is not struggling because Adams failed to bring in #4 RHD or another average goalie or a bottom six player. They are not playing as a team. They are all out of position, defending terribly, making poor decisions and terrible reads. The sad thing is watching yesterdays game, the players are all getting WORSE at playing team hockey.

I initially liked Granato, and I loved the culture he brought to the room. I had been calling for upgrades at the assistant levels for two years and keeping him, but now it is clear to me that every day he remains head coach the players are going to become worse at pro hockey. His focus does not translate to the NHL and he has to go. If Adams won't make a coaching change, then Adams has to go as well.

And yes, you most likely are correct, Adams or any other GM that come here will not have the proper resources to do his job properly, and that is directly on Terry Pegula as owner and president, unfortunately we are stuck with him. In my eyes, the immediate issue is a failing coaching system. I would like to see how the players Adams assembled could play under a legitimate pro coach, I think the results would surprise a lot of people in here.

My only quibble was that there’s a bit of a logical gap associating trades made with trades not made. I think—I’m kind of losing the thread of things with a Covid headache.

I think you have a very pragmatic assessment of the situation here and I agree with pretty much all of it. I would certainly look at coaching first. But as a separate but related issue, eventually Adams is going to need to make a risky trade. If only because the Sabres’ pile of redundant prospects is getting too big.

Your take on Adams/Pegula reminds me of some general life advice I’ve heard: it takes a long series of good decisions to become successful—but a singular bad decision can ruin your life.

 

[Gras]

Just think Irie can claim the prices were too high last off season, then he can claim the prices were too high at this trade deadline and then he can claim next off season..and so on and so on.

Then we can all be thankful and grateful Adams didn't overpay for an asset as we all eat our gruel.

Hint: GMs get credit for what the accomplish not for what they didn't accomplish. If Adams gets credit for NOT trading for Campbell then don't 30 other GMs get that same credit? Sure they do. So we are going to start giving GMs credit for trades they didn't make? Thats like giving everyone a participation medal.

While it would have been nice to make the playoffs last year, it wouldn't have been worth is to trade a 1st on a rental player just to get bounced in the 1st round

 

[Chainshot]

It isn't so much a mentorship thing as it is to have a defenseman who can play well at ES and PK in more than just 3rd pairing minutes. Jokiharju has improved but he's a mess on the PK. The idea the other day floated about Weegar still is intriguing even if they have to manage cap repercussions later to get the defense functioning now instead of down the line. They are in the near stages of can kicking that Botterill did and left them go into the latest round of talent jettisons. They need that defenseman.

As for the forwards... again, middle 6 guys who will go to the net and be hard to play against. It doesn't have to be a center but finding a Nick Paul or Blake Coleman or even Garnet Hathaway before they became the UFA payday creatures they are now is vital. They don't have enough of it and what they have isn't supported in the lineup.

That also implies that they would be willing to shove peripheral players like Vic out the door without retaining what they felt was value and I haven't seen that they are going to do that yet even if it is warranted.

 

[toddkaz]

While it would have been nice to make the playoffs last year, it wouldn't have been worth is to trade a 1st on a rental player just to get bounced in the 1st round

You can also trade for non-rentals?

Buffalo will have roughly 26m in cap space next year.

Are we going to see the same team next year too? Adams has the opportunity to bring in some talent.

 

[Willgamesh]

You can also trade for non-rentals?

Buffalo will have roughly 26m in cap space next year.

Are we going to see the same team next year too? Adams has the opportunity to bring in some talent.

We can also trade protected 1st's.

 

[Irie]

You can also trade for non-rentals?

Buffalo will have roughly 26m in cap space next year.

Are we going to see the same team next year too? Adams has the opportunity to bring in some talent.

They will have 26 million, but they are also going to have 40% of the team unsigned.

You want to bring back Mitts? ok, now you have 19 million left to spend.

You want a new starting NHL goalie? OK, now you have 14 million left to spend.

You want a upgrade top 4 RHD? Ok, now you have 8 million left to spend.

8 million and 5 forward slots to fill. You want to bring in quality bottom six players and not bargain bin UFAs? That 8 million is going to go away real fast and you won't have enough left over to ice a full team. And next offseason you have to find the cap to extend Quinn and Peterka without any substantial contracts coming off of the books, so plan for that.

There is room to bring in some help, but they have to spend wisely. The chance of high quality bottom-six UFAs signing in Buffalo is next to nil. The chance of trading for good RFAs and having them extend long-term in buffalo at a reasonable AAV, also very slim.

You attack my positions because you don't like them, but I am being realistic here. While I agree that Adams is not a great GM who can pull off the fantastic moves this team really needs, I accept the facts that 80% of the GMs in the league are not capable of making those moves either because they are really hard to pull off. If they weren't difficult, every team in the league would be a cup contender. The sort of players the Sabres really need are rarely actually available.

I also weigh the cost of Terry bringing in another hand chosen GM who starts the build process over with his own plan, or, god help us, Terry Pegula's roster plan, and both would likely set this franchise back years, imo.

 

[TehDoak]

Is it unknowable? Adams said the prices were much higher that he was comfortable paying. Multiple other GMs came out and said everyone is looking for the same thing and the market prices were ridiculous. The majority of the teams in the league were looking for what the Sabres were looking for. The reported ask for Chychrun was Benson+Kulich/Savoie+. The evidence all clearly points to very bad trade territory. I do not see how we do not know that the prices were terrible.

I am not an Adams fan, I just happen to believe that "no moves" are better than "terrible moves", and with Terry Pegula running the show and placing himself in the team president role, having a GM that is not pursuing "Ville Leinos" and acting as a buffer to the Owner's whims is really important.

This board sees Adams as the problem, I see Pegula as the main issue, and saving the team from him is priority number one.

As far as on ice performance, this board is telling me:

1.) This team can't compete as built.

That is bullshit. We have all witnessed this team compete and perform well at times. There are a lot of great players here, but they are puck chasing and have zero defensive strategy, communication or continuity. That is all a coaching issue.

I think you are a off on this. The construction of the team is bad. The talent level is undeniably high. However, too many players who simply don't know their own end. They were 'competitive' when they were able to outscore their problems. There has been a natural scoring regression this year, system changes, injuries, and teams adjusting to the Sabres system that has all led the offense falling off.

They aren't built to win 2-1 or 3-2 games. They don't have the goaltending, they don't have enough defensive minded forwards, etc for that kind of system.

We are also seeing the maddeningly inconsistently comes from having so many young players, which is a roster construction issue as well.

2.) "Adams has assembled a team that is uncoachable".

This argument is the pinnacle of the stupid arguments that have been put forth on this board this year. Every player in this organization is coachable, but they have a coach who after 200 games still said he "has not had time to install a defensive system"..... and we think the problem is the players? This is crazytown level of talk.

I haven't seen particular argument.

I will say, the coaching staff basically telling them not to worry about the defensive part of the game for two years and now telling them they need to back check is a little like getting your kids to eat the spinach after they've already had the ice cream.

3.) "Adams didn't do his job and acquire one or two players, that is why this team is struggling".

The team is not struggling because Adams failed to bring in #4 RHD or another average goalie or a bottom six player. They are not playing as a team. They are all out of position, defending terribly, making poor decisions and terrible reads. The sad thing is watching yesterdays game, the players are all getting WORSE at playing team hockey.

We are seeing years of neglect of roster construction manifesting this season. Buffalo had ample cap space and draft picks to methodically add a veteran support group to this young roster. What we've had is Adams picking bad vets (Jost, Stillman, Hinostroza, Johnson, Comrie, etc) off of discount pile and bringing back Okposo and Girgensons (twice now).

The issue isn't the failure this summer. The issue is the failures of the previous 3 summers.

I initially liked Granato, and I loved the culture he brought to the room. I had been calling for upgrades at the assistant levels for two years and keeping him, but now it is clear to me that every day he remains head coach the players are going to become worse at pro hockey. His focus does not translate to the NHL and he has to go. If Adams won't make a coaching change, then Adams has to go as well.

And yes, you most likely are correct, Adams or any other GM that come here will not have the proper resources to do his job properly, and that is directly on Terry Pegula as owner and president, unfortunately we are stuck with him. In my eyes, the immediate issue is a failing coaching system. I would like to see how the players Adams assembled could play under a legitimate pro coach, I think the results would surprise a lot of people in here.

Pegula is a core problem. But, the front office is a big part of the problem.

I think if there was competence, trust, and success, Pegula would be much more hands off and the GM would get autonomy. I don't think we'll have any sustainable success here until the Pegulas either luck into a stable front office like they did with Beane/McDermott.

But Adams isn't a competent GM. 4 years in we've been a bubble team once.

 

[BFLO]

A staggering amount of bad faith and/or ignorance in this post.

1) We all know, or should, that Adams didn’t have full control over the front office until he fired Krueger. Did you really not know that? Or just don’t care, and want to argue in bad faith.

2) Its amazing to me that you actually think Adams “didn’t add anyone better than Greenway”. Adams gets credit for Tage, Tuch, Cozens, Mitts, Peterka, Quinn and now Benson. All arguably better than Greenway (maybe not Benson yet).

When a GM takes over a front office and decides to rebuild. Then sets in motion a plan to do so by (1) trading away core pieces for players/picks, (2) sets up a development environment for players already here or on the way, (3) rebuilds/builds up the pipeline, (4) changes the development approach in the AHL and (5) does well drafting. Then that GM gets credit for the parts that work out.


It’s always baffling to me that some posters don’t understand that drafting/developing options in house is “adding players”. We literally had no top 6 centers at the start of the 2021 offseason and ended last season with 3 options. But bizarrely in your mind that doesn’t count.


Adams plans for this season have been a failure. We can all see that. But pretending he’s done nothing but f*** up since he got hired and can’t identify talent is complete nonsense.

You changed the definition of the word "add" in order to argue with a straw man.

And you have the gall to call me bad faith?

 

[toddkaz]

Wow, Okposo out for a while.

Wonder who the call up will be?

 

[Beerz]

Wow, Okposo out for a while.

Wonder who the call up will be?

Does it matter?

 

[MarkusKetterer]

Wow, Okposo out for a while.

Wonder who the call up will be?

The era of von Barnekow-Lofberg starts now! Yes I know he’s signed with Malmo for another year after this one

 

[Ehran]

I'm curious to see how a Robinson-Krebs-Girgensons line would look.

Lots of scoring? Nope

Forechecking and annoying as hell? Yup!!

 

[Tatanka]

Does it matter?

Sadly it doesn't. If you are on the 100% grow from within train you've got your roster for the foreseeable future. If you are on the organic growth doesn't work as all teams grow organically every year train, the conductor just informed you that the bridge is out and you need to get on the other train. So no it doesn't matter and any suggestions of change are to be kept oneself as management is not taking any calls at the moment. Enjoy the ride.

 

[Zman5778]

I'm curious to see how a Robinson-Krebs-Girgensons line would look.

Lots of scoring? Nope

Forechecking and annoying as hell? Yup!!

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that too. Speedy, forecheck-y and defensive-y.

 

[Gras]

Wow, Okposo out for a while.

Wonder who the call up will be?

Comrie

 

[Chainshot]

Comrie

Probably just Jost.

 

[My Cozen Dylan]

Comrie

If I don't laugh, I'll cry.

 

[joshjull]

Does it matter?

Leading goal scorer since Nov 24th I think with 8 goals. Not bad for a scrub.

 

[Irie]

I think you are a off on this. The construction of the team is bad. The talent level is undeniably high. However, too many players who simply don't know their own end. They were 'competitive' when they were able to outscore their problems. There has been a natural scoring regression this year, system changes, injuries, and teams adjusting to the Sabres system that has all led the offense falling off.

They aren't built to win 2-1 or 3-2 games. They don't have the goaltending, they don't have enough defensive minded forwards, etc for that kind of system.

We are also seeing the maddeningly inconsistently comes from having so many young players, which is a roster construction issue as well.

We have to define compete.

In the context I was quoting, it was referring to "not good enough to win games".

In the terms you are implying, "Not built well enough to make the playoffs", you are absolutely correct. You and I have agreed on the front offices decisions to try to win with kids and not have roleplayers and toughness and vet leadership for years (one thing we do agree on , but the narrative I was referring to was about this team being a full teardown away from competing, which can not be real since we have watched the team compete in games in it's current form. Like I have said now on several occasions, the foundation is here, and the addition of a great third line that can shut down oppositions top lines and chew up tough minutes would entirely change the look of this team and put them in a great spot (with the right coaching).

Pegula is a core problem. But, the front office is a big part of the problem.

I think if there was competence, trust, and success, Pegula would be much more hands off and the GM would get autonomy. I don't think we'll have any sustainable success here until the Pegulas either luck into a stable front office like they did with Beane/McDermott.

I disagree. I think Pegula has been the driving force of this plan since the beginning. all we have to do is look back to the start of the Adams-Granato youth plan and see Adams going out and picking up a high cap LTIR(retired) goalie with a low salary that was insured, weeks before the UFA period opens. That is not the moves of a GM trying to make moves that are in the best interest of his players development, that is the move of a GM being told by ownership to "ice me a roster that saves the most money right now".

Getting to the cap floor is easy in the offseason, actively making a move like this so early is a plan dictated by pure ownership frugalness

But Adams isn't a competent GM. 4 years in we've been a bubble team once.

And the team is still the youngest team in the league, so while that is a huge part of the problem, it also presents a huge opportunity moving forward.

You and a couple of other posters hate Adams and link every negative event to him on a regular basis. I hated to hire too, and was very critical of a lot of his early moves (search my posts back leading up to the Eichel trade). But I have to give Adams credit given the Pegula situation - there has been a fair amount of positive along with the negative, which you will never admit.

In all honesty, If I were team president, my first move would be to replace Adams, but that is only because I would have the ability to pick his replacement. Terry Pegula is once again going to pick Adam's replacement if he is canned, and the chances we get someone better is astronomically low.

I am sticking by my guns - A new coaching staff and a few good roster tweaks to the bottom 6 and this team is a surefire playoff team. My expectations are different than most in here though- back when Granato was made fulltime coach, I posted that I did not believe Granato was capable of getting this team to the playoffs. That said, I also said that I liked the hire as a development coach to get them through the tank years. The tank years have passed, and Granato is no longer a beneficial presence on this team. It is time to move on.

 

[sabregoat]

Wow, Okposo out for a while.

Wonder who the call up will be?

I would like to see Weissbach up for a couple. All the others have been underwhelming so it would not make much of a difference. Gives him a little extra coin in his pocket.