Roster Thread (2023-2024 Season)

[toddkaz]

It's not about touting, it is about the hyperbole and people losing their minds over a depth move during a wave of injuries. Half a dozen posters have repeatedly brought up the Stillman trade in the past 48 hours as some kind of litmus test that Adams is a terrible GM, (Not referring to you, @Sabresfansince1980 - your calling of it pointless is not what I am referring to).

The move ultimately provided something positive for the young players developing on the farm.

Being pissed that a terrible value trade didn't happen and a small value trade happened in it's place is asinine. Seems everyone needs a reminder that often a small trade or no trade at all is a whole hell of a lot better than a bad trade. Looking at the reality of the situations around the league is not something this board does very well. We seem to be living in a whole bunch of fantasy-land.

The sabres were only a few points out of a playoff spot and the best Adams could do is trade for a fringe NHL defensemen. Thats the criticism. If Adams was trading for an AHL player in the summer then no big deal, no one cares. Its considered NHL depth when someone gets injured. When the trade happens at the trade deadline then yeah the player is going to get criticized and so is the trade. Context matters in this case.

In a way it does show Adams is terrible because at the trade deadline when the team needs a push this is the best Adams could do. This team missed the playoffs by 1 point and Stillman was the big trade to put them over the top?

In the grand scheme of things the move provided nothing because it was at the trade deadline when the team was trying to make the playoffs. You make the same point Adams did about bringing in Eric Comrie and his good vibes. In the end it provided nothing, in fact Comrie turned out to be a negative. Good vibes can only take you so far but winning is what really matters.

You are completely dismissing the timing of the trade which is the whole point of the criticism.

I remember Buffalo was going to make the playoffs and had a good team and Reiger brought in Bob Corkum. Whats that suppose to do? So ya, Corkum is gonna get heavy criticism. Is it warranted? At Reiger yes, at Corkum? No really but he is the target of disappointment.

 

[Irie]

The sabres were only a few points out of a playoff spot and the best Adams could do is trade for a fringe NHL defensemen. Thats the criticism. If Adams was trading for an AHL player in the summer then no big deal, no one cares. Its considered NHL depth when someone gets injured. When the trade happens at the trade deadline then yeah the player is going to get criticized and so is the trade. Context matters in this case.

In a way it does show Adams is terrible because at the trade deadline when the team needs a push this is the best Adams could do. This team missed the playoffs by 1 point and Stillman was the big trade to put them over the top?

In the grand scheme of things the move provided nothing because it was at the trade deadline when the team was trying to make the playoffs. You make the same point Adams did about bringing in Eric Comrie and his good vibes. In the end it provided nothing, in fact Comrie turned out to be a negative. Good vibes can only take you so far but winning is what really matters.

You are completely dismissing the timing of the trade which is the whole point of the criticism.

I remember Buffalo was going to make the playoffs and had a good team and Reiger brought in Bob Corkum. Whats that suppose to do? So ya, Corkum is gonna get heavy criticism. Is it warranted? At Reiger yes, at Corkum? No really but he is the target of disappointment.

You talk about context but are dismissing the history of the situation.

Adams didn't fail to bring in a game changer, he refused to pay a ridiculous price for an upgrade.

A bad trade is a bad trade whether it happens in March or August.

Not making that deal might be the best move Adams has done in his time as GM.

The narrative that Stillman was the planned target at the deadline and ignoring the facts of what transpired to build a fake case of the actual events is flat out crappy, and this board has been ignoring reality a lot lately.

Listen, if Pegula sold the team, I'd be the first person screaming to fire Adams, but I am not too naive to realize that Pegulas next hire could be way worse. Buffalo is not a destination UFAs or trade targets are likely to sign extensions with, so the GM needs to refrain from bad trades for guys that won't stick around.

You see the roster and view one upgrade as a couple of potential increased points in the standings. I view the coaching failures and see a current roster that is capable of a lot more than a couple of points of improvement without any personnel moves.

Upgrades are great but not when they cost Benson+Kulich/Savoie+. The players are serviceable if deployed in a way that caters to their strengths. I see a ton of lost opportunities with how this roster is being implemented.

 

[My Cozen Dylan]

Upgrades are great but not when they cost Benson+Kulich/Savoie+. The players are serviceable if deployed in a way that caters to their strengths. I see a ton of lost opportunities with how this roster is being implemented.

This mentality, shared by Adams btw, is why we will never improve under him.

 

[Chainshot]

If only Okposo and Girgensons could make Dahlin and Power stop making stupid mistakes or Tuch and Skinner to show up. That'd show 'em.

 

[BFLO]

If only Okposo and Girgensons could make Dahlin and Power stop making stupid mistakes or Tuch and Skinner to show up. That'd show 'em.

Yes? Getting your guys to show up is like the whole point of being Captain or Assistant Captain.

Don't get me wrong, most of the blame goes on Dahlin, Power, Tuch, Skinner, etc.

But having ineffective veteran players who are also ineffective as leaders is certainly on the list of problems plaguing this franchise.

 

[TehDoak]

If only Okposo and Girgensons could make Dahlin and Power stop making stupid mistakes or Tuch and Skinner to show up. That'd show 'em.

They badly need a leader and mentor on the blueline. And better assistant coaches.

It really feels like the galaxy brain thinking on EJ was "Well who better to mentor our two 1st overall picks is ANOTHER 1st overall pick"

As much as I hate sinking more dollars into the blueline...they are going to have to.

 

[Vito_81]

Yes? Getting your guys to show up is like the whole point of being Captain or Assistant Captain.

Don't get me wrong, most of the blame goes on Dahlin, Power, Tuch, Skinner, etc.

But having ineffective veteran players who are also ineffective as leaders is certainly on the list of problems plaguing this franchise.

I think you’re half right.

Okposo and Girgs are great lead by example guys. But clearly they don’t seem to be very vocal guys.

EJ is more of that vocal kind of guy, but he’s pretty much done as an on ice factor.

The issue is Buffalo is lacking an important team piece(a clear top 6 F/top 4 D) that is a vocal leader who will get on guys while at the same time also bringing it every night on ice.

 

[slip]

If only Okposo and Girgensons could make Dahlin and Power stop making stupid mistakes or Tuch and Skinner to show up. That'd show 'em.

Yeah I see your point, but that doesn't absolve Erik Johnson from the wildly inconsistent performances of our goaltending tandem 6k/Levi. He needs to do better.

 

[ForsbergMoDo21]

You talk about context but are dismissing the history of the situation.

Adams didn't fail to bring in a game changer, he refused to pay a ridiculous price for an upgrade.

A bad trade is a bad trade whether it happens in March or August.

Not making that deal might be the best move Adams has done in his time as GM.

The narrative that Stillman was the planned target at the deadline and ignoring the facts of what transpired to build a fake case of the actual events is flat out crappy, and this board has been ignoring reality a lot lately.

Listen, if Pegula sold the team, I'd be the first person screaming to fire Adams, but I am not too naive to realize that Pegulas next hire could be way worse. Buffalo is not a destination UFAs or trade targets are likely to sign extensions with, so the GM needs to refrain from bad trades for guys that won't stick around.

You see the roster and view one upgrade as a couple of potential increased points in the standings. I view the coaching failures and see a current roster that is capable of a lot more than a couple of points of improvement without any personnel moves.

Upgrades are great but not when they cost Benson+Kulich/Savoie+. The players are serviceable if deployed in a way that caters to their strengths. I see a ton of lost opportunities with how this roster is being implemented.

When your best argument is an unknowable hypothetical, it’s not very strong. It’s a substance-less blanket criticism that could be applied literally anytime. Are we going to say the Comrie signing was good because he could have traded for Jack Campbell? I’ll concede that Adams deserves some credit for not making a bad trade. But that’s not a useful lens for evaluating the moves he did make.

My only interest in the Stillman trade is in the greater context of evaluating the entirety of the front office’s competence. I’m certainly not fixated on it. And I’m happy there’s a competitive player in the organization. But I think @toddkaz is right in that the context and timing is very relevant. This is a fine trade from an organizational tinkering standpoint, but it was a useless trade in the context of acquiring an impact NHL player at the deadline to help the team push into the playoffs.

Personally, I am still floored at the skeleton pro scouting crew this organization has. According to my ten seconds of Googling, most teams have three times the pro scouting staff that Buffalo has. Perhaps Adams is reluctant to swing hard on a deal that might actually impact the team because he realizes he’s simply not well informed on the players he could potentially acquire. But absolving Adams of some responsibility for the shittiness of the Sabres through that line of reasoning is kind of a Pyrrhic victory. Just speaks to worse problems with the Sabres. A GM not equipped with the resources needed to do his job.

 

[BFLO]

I think you’re half right.

Okposo and Girgs are great lead by example guys. But clearly they don’t seem to be very vocal guys.

EJ is more of that vocal kind of guy, but he’s pretty much done as an on ice factor.

The issue is Buffalo is lacking an important team piece(a clear top 6 F/top 4 D) that is a vocal leader who will get on guys while at the same time also bringing it every night on ice.

I don't think Okposo or Girgs are good for "lead by example" either. Do we really want our guys following their example?

Okposo signed a big contract with us, and then never showed up. Girgs was a 14th overall draft pick who never came close to living up to his draft status. Girg's contracts have been modest, but he still charged us the "Buffalo Tax" to play here. He's been a league minimum value player getting paid 2x-3x that amount his entire tenure here.

 

[Vito_81]

I don't think Okposo or Girgs are good for "lead by example" either. Do we really want our guys following their example?

Okposo signed a big contract with us, and then never showed up. Girgs was a 14th overall draft pick who never came close to living up to his draft status. Girg's contracts have been modest, but he still charged us the "Buffalo Tax" to play here. He's been a league minimum value player getting paid 2x-3x that amount his entire tenure here.

If you can’t admit that both guys are among the hardest working players every night, you really are blinded by your hate.

 

[My Cozen Dylan]

It's so damn frustrating to know that we have the shell of playoff team, and even more so that we know what we're lacking. With an experienced coach, it's a really solid base:

Benson - Thompson - Tuch
Peterka - Cozens - Quinn
Greenway - Mittelstadt - XXX
XXX - XXX - XXX

Johnson - Dahlin
Power - XXX
Samuelsson - XXX

The issue is we don't have any prospects likely to contribute in the next 2 or 3 years that fill any of the roles we are lacking. We don't need more small skill, but we have that in abundance. We don't need more offense-only, Downy soft defensemen. We have that in abundance.

Size+toughness+compete. Everyone knows it except Adams, who is blinded by his "belief" in his guys. Or worse, he knows it and doesn't care.

 

[Vito_81]

It's so damn frustrating to know that we have the shell of playoff team, and even more so that we know what we're lacking. With an experienced coach, it's a really solid base:

Benson - Thompson - Tuch
Peterka - Cozens - Quinn
Greenway - Mittelstadt - XXX
XXX - XXX - XXX

Johnson - Dahlin
Power - XXX
Samuelsson - XXX

The issue is we don't have any prospects likely to contribute in the next 2 or 3 years that fill any of the roles we are lacking. We don't need more small skill, but we have that in abundance. We don't need more offense-only, Downy soft defensemen. We have that in abundance.

Size+toughness+compete. Everyone knows it except Adams, who is blinded by his "belief" in his guys. Or worse, he knows it and doesn't care.

You’re right on.

The one thing that keeps my hopes strong is the fact that the players we lack are not hard to obtain, especially considering our prospect and draft pick pool. Its not like we are sitting here in need of a top line C or 1 pairing D.

For better or worse, KA wanted this to be another year of development and wait and see. However, with how things are going. The time for action is now, and these next few months will show if the Adams hate is justified or not

 

[BFLO]

If you can’t admit that both guys are among the hardest working players every night, you really are blinded by your hate.

I don't dispute that they are hard workers. But I think it's far more important to learn from someone who is effective, in addition to being hard working.

I've worked with/employed lots of people who were hard workers and still sucked at their jobs. I didn't want them training the new employees, I wanted the people who were good at their jobs and hard working leading the way.

 

[toddkaz]

You talk about context but are dismissing the history of the situation.

Adams didn't fail to bring in a game changer, he refused to pay a ridiculous price for an upgrade.

A bad trade is a bad trade whether it happens in March or August.

Not making that deal might be the best move Adams has done in his time as GM.

The narrative that Stillman was the planned target at the deadline and ignoring the facts of what transpired to build a fake case of the actual events is flat out crappy, and this board has been ignoring reality a lot lately.

Listen, if Pegula sold the team, I'd be the first person screaming to fire Adams, but I am not too naive to realize that Pegulas next hire could be way worse. Buffalo is not a destination UFAs or trade targets are likely to sign extensions with, so the GM needs to refrain from bad trades for guys that won't stick around.

You see the roster and view one upgrade as a couple of potential increased points in the standings. I view the coaching failures and see a current roster that is capable of a lot more than a couple of points of improvement without any personnel moves.

Upgrades are great but not when they cost Benson+Kulich/Savoie+. The players are serviceable if deployed in a way that caters to their strengths. I see a ton of lost opportunities with how this roster is being implemented.

You were in the room with Adams were ya?

You win, I can't beat something you just make up in your head since you have no idea what went on in the room that day.

 

[toddkaz]

Yes? Getting your guys to show up is like the whole point of being Captain or Assistant Captain.

Don't get me wrong, most of the blame goes on Dahlin, Power, Tuch, Skinner, etc.

But having ineffective veteran players who are also ineffective as leaders is certainly on the list of problems plaguing this franchise.

Well said. Its the captain's job to rally the troops and lead them into battle.

Ours shouldn't even be in the NHL.

Turning the page from the old guard is an important step forward.

 

[CaliSabresfan24]

Not sure about Therien but they need a new voice

 

[toddkaz]

When your best argument is an unknowable hypothetical, it’s not very strong. It’s a substance-less blanket criticism that could be applied literally anytime. Are we going to say the Comrie signing was good because he could have traded for Jack Campbell? I’ll concede that Adams deserves some credit for not making a bad trade. But that’s not a useful lens for evaluating the moves he did make.

My only interest in the Stillman trade is in the greater context of evaluating the entirety of the front office’s competence. I’m certainly not fixated on it. And I’m happy there’s a competitive player in the organization. But I think @toddkaz is right in that the context and timing is very relevant. This is a fine trade from an organizational tinkering standpoint, but it was a useless trade in the context of acquiring an impact NHL player at the deadline to help the team push into the playoffs.

Personally, I am still floored at the skeleton pro scouting crew this organization has. According to my ten seconds of Googling, most teams have three times the pro scouting staff that Buffalo has. Perhaps Adams is reluctant to swing hard on a deal that might actually impact the team because he realizes he’s simply not well informed on the players he could potentially acquire. But absolving Adams of some responsibility for the shittiness of the Sabres through that line of reasoning is kind of a Pyrrhic victory. Just speaks to worse problems with the Sabres. A GM not equipped with the resources needed to do his job.

Just think Irie can claim the prices were too high last off season, then he can claim the prices were too high at this trade deadline and then he can claim next off season..and so on and so on.

Then we can all be thankful and grateful Adams didn't overpay for an asset as we all eat our gruel.

Hint: GMs get credit for what the accomplish not for what they didn't accomplish. If Adams gets credit for NOT trading for Campbell then don't 30 other GMs get that same credit? Sure they do. So we are going to start giving GMs credit for trades they didn't make? Thats like giving everyone a participation medal.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

The plan was always a bad plan, yes.

The problem is that it was the plan that Pegula signed off on, and anyone who thinks that the previously three years of this organization wasn't majorly about Adams saving Terry money has not been paying attention.

I was strongly against not having vets to insulate Dahlin, Cozens, and some of the others, but they have weathered the storm better than I imagined possible. so I will eat crow there and admit that this team is in a better position now than I thought the plan would get them.

I feel like I am in a twilight zone episode - so many posters were telling me that the kids would all be great two+ years ago, and now when I am saying this setback is a speed bump, but not that dire (the kids have held their own and the team is poised to take the next step with a few roster tweaks and a coaching change), everyone is now saying it was all a complete failure.

This board is still a rollercoaster of emotions. Expectations were way too high not long ago, and they are way too low now.

"The problem is that it was the plan that Pegula signed off on, and anyone who thinks that the previously three years of this organization wasn't majorly about Adams saving Terry money has not been paying attention."

This. Absolutely this.

Problem is.... it hasn't worked - on the ice. Or the front office.

I expect it is saving Terry money.

 

[Chainshot]

Yes? Getting your guys to show up is like the whole point of being Captain or Assistant Captain.

Don't get me wrong, most of the blame goes on Dahlin, Power, Tuch, Skinner, etc.

But having ineffective veteran players who are also ineffective as leaders is certainly on the list of problems plaguing this franchise.

I wouldn't mind if they Harry Neale'd a few of them. But in this day and age, punching a teammate in the face in practice probably doesn't work.

 

[Tatanka]

You’re right on.

The one thing that keeps my hopes strong is the fact that the players we lack are not hard to obtain, especially considering our prospect and draft pick pool. Its not like we are sitting here in need of a top line C or 1 pairing D.

For better or worse, KA wanted this to be another year of development and wait and see. However, with how things are going. The time for action is now, and these next few months will show if the Adams hate is justified or not

It is exactly what we need. A top C and a2nd pair d to push power down. But if a gm is not willing or able to realize you can’t grow all your own pieces, we are all pissing into the wind.

 

[ForsbergMoDo21]

I wouldn't mind if they Harry Neale'd a few of them. But in this day and age, punching a teammate in the face in practice probably doesn't work.

I was thinking I wish we could get Laviolette. But same idea.

Edit: how did I never realize it was Ville Leino he was punching? Makes this gif doubly satisfying.

 

[toddkaz]

Kevo's goalie signing cleared waivers. That's 7 million dollars of NHL contracts in Rochester.

 

[My Cozen Dylan]

Watching the Winter Classic...man we just feel so far away.

 

[joshjull]

The approach is clearly wrong. If your GMs plan is to not add anyone to the roster better than Greenway in 4 years, it's a bad plan.

Your defense of Adams boils down to "Adams told us he had a bad plan, and then he stuck to his bad plan. It's bad faith for you to argue he should have done something else."

A staggering amount of bad faith and/or ignorance in this post.

1) We all know, or should, that Adams didn’t have full control over the front office until he fired Krueger. Did you really not know that? Or just don’t care, and want to argue in bad faith.

2) Its amazing to me that you actually think Adams “didn’t add anyone better than Greenway”. Adams gets credit for Tage, Tuch, Cozens, Mitts, Peterka, Quinn and now Benson. All arguably better than Greenway (maybe not Benson yet).

When a GM takes over a front office and decides to rebuild. Then sets in motion a plan to do so by (1) trading away core pieces for players/picks, (2) sets up a development environment for players already here or on the way, (3) rebuilds/builds up the pipeline, (4) changes the development approach in the AHL and (5) does well drafting. Then that GM gets credit for the parts that work out.


It’s always baffling to me that some posters don’t understand that drafting/developing options in house is “adding players”. We literally had no top 6 centers at the start of the 2021 offseason and ended last season with 3 options. But bizarrely in your mind that doesn’t count.


Adams plans for this season have been a failure. We can all see that. But pretending he’s done nothing but f*** up since he got hired and can’t identify talent is complete nonsense.