Roster Talk: News, Theories, Lineups, Rumors Etc. New Season Cometh!

[Papa Mocha 15]

To be frank, I think we're doing that already, it's just a slow roast and that's not fast enough for many here.

Look at how much outgoing vs. incoming talent we've had in the last few years, we've absolutely gotten younger and faster. Lucic is in his prime. Sekera was as well. Ehrhoff is arguably a vet and desperation move. Outgoing we've had (not a complete list) Scuderi, Mitchell, Voynov, Williams, Stoll, Richards. That's a LOT of experience to give up, ability and age be damned, in favor of Shore, Andreoff, Forbort, probably Mersch, maybe Kempe, maybe Gravel.

I don't think you can or SHOULD completely wipe your roster of vets in favor of youth, they need some insulation, even if the insulation sucks (see Calder, Kyle, and Nagy, Ladislav, etc.). Look at Edmonton. Look at Calgary. The youth is obviously uber-talented and will take over sooner rather than later in some cases but explosive change is almost never good unless you're a bottom feeding team with no assets.

I'm certain we will see what you're asking for, I think a lot of folks don't have the patience and ask to ship Gaborik out and put Weal in after one game, for example.

I think it is an interesting experiment to watch Edmonton NOT cushion their youth around solid vet these past few years. It looks like that is finally changing somewhat, but I think the damage has already been done. I think the Connor McDavid collar bone issue could have been preventable if they had a better level of discipline from the vets to the youth. Instead they turned him loose on the offensive side without anyone to really teach him when to reign it in, when to drive hard to the net, when to have protection around etc. All we have seen these past few weeks were highlights of him without any restraint in the O Zone or protection and now their shining beacon is out for a few months. That habit of letting the kids learn through experience while management has historically used rentals has really damaged their gem. If Edmonton had a better core these past few years to protect the kids, they could be dominating the league right now... funny how player selection for insulating the core can make or break a group of kids.

 

[KingsFan7824]

I think it is an interesting experiment to watch Edmonton NOT cushion their youth around solid vet these past few years. It looks like that is finally changing somewhat, but I think the damage has already been done. I think the Connor McDavid collar bone issue could have been preventable if they had a better level of discipline from the vets to the youth. Instead they turned him loose on the offensive side without anyone to really teach him when to reign it in, when to drive hard to the net, when to have protection around etc. All we have seen these past few weeks were highlights of him without any restraint in the O Zone or protection and now their shining beacon is out for a few months. That habit of letting the kids learn through experience while management has historically used rentals has really damaged their gem. If Edmonton had a better core these past few years to protect the kids, they could be dominating the league right now... funny how player selection for insulating the core can make or break a group of kids.

I'd say it was just an unlucky injury. Kopitar messed up his ankle fighting for the puck along the boards.

 

[Omni Owl]

If Brown is feeling down about his lack of goals this year, he should look at Voracek, who has a **** load of shots but 0 goals as well. They'll come if he keeps his pace up.

 

[cyclones22]

I'd say it was just an unlucky injury. Kopitar messed up his ankle fighting for the puck along the boards.

Yep, skate got caught while he was falling over. I'll never forget the sound in Fox's voice when he was describing Kopitar's condition. He knew right away that was season ending and I felt my hopes for Kings playoff success drain away.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

How can you seriously say that hes not much better when everything points to the reverse. Greene is lucky to play 12 -15 mins where girardi is playing 19 -20 mins Skating edge goes girardi Hes a year younger Only thing in greene favour is contract imo. We must be looking at two different defenseman cause I don't see what you are.

Would it be better if I said he were a 2nd pairing version of Matt Greene? He gets 2nd pairing minutes and more assists. That's about it.

Girardi has the worst Corsi for and worst corsi relative on the rangers. He's been the worst at that for a 4 year period, only rivaling Kevin Klein who has played less. Girardi is at .67 points per 60 minutes, Matt Greene is .54. Girardi Corsi Rel is -4.4, Greene's is -1.3...and keep in mind the Kings have been historically much better at that than the Rangers. Girardi has, over that time period, been the Rangers worst or near-worst +/- defenseman among regulars, similar to Greene who has actually been slightly better relative to team.

Maybe he's got an advantage on Greene in blocked shots, which is a function of system and minutes, imo, but I'm not going to dig hard for that stat rate. You could argue he gets tougher minutes, and that he LOOKS better as per the eye test, but again, Girardi isn't a significant upgrade on Greene by any metric. If there's an argument to be made, I'm all ears. He's better, but not by any degree that I'd be willing to make a trade to get him on this team.

 

[Ollie Weeks]

A certain hockey blogger is floating Kings are "eyeing" Iginla, would you do Gaborik for Iginla straight up?

Colorado may not. I certainly would. And I'm of the opinion that Gaborik will be bouncing back.

 

[The Tikkanen]

Colorado may not. I certainly would. And I'm of the opinion that Gaborik will be bouncing back.

Yah, the 3.1 shooting percentage suggests he'l be better as the season wears on. However, the dwindling ice time, he's down to 15:22, no points on the PP and the minus 6 are big red flags.

 

[Mattias]

Yep, skate got caught while he was falling over. I'll never forget the sound in Fox's voice when he was describing Kopitar's condition. He knew right away that was season ending and I felt my hopes for Kings playoff success drain away.

"Ooh, get up Anze..."

That was a very sad moment.

 

[Herby]

"Ooh, get up Anze..."

That was a very sad moment.

I think that was the moment that DL knew the Kings needed to trade youth for another established player, which lead to the Richards trade. When the Kings were still a bad team 3/4 of the way through the next season they finally traded for an elite winger and the rest is history.

That was depressing having Stoll as the #1 center, and having Zeiler replace Kopitar on the roster. The Kings gave it a hell of a go and the chokers up north almost blew it, but we were an awful team minus Kopi.

 

[KingCanadain1976]

Would it be better if I said he were a 2nd pairing version of Matt Greene? He gets 2nd pairing minutes and more assists. That's about it.

Girardi has the worst Corsi for and worst corsi relative on the rangers. He's been the worst at that for a 4 year period, only rivaling Kevin Klein who has played less. Girardi is at .67 points per 60 minutes, Matt Greene is .54. Girardi Corsi Rel is -4.4, Greene's is -1.3...and keep in mind the Kings have been historically much better at that than the Rangers. Girardi has, over that time period, been the Rangers worst or near-worst +/- defenseman among regulars, similar to Greene who has actually been slightly better relative to team.

Maybe he's got an advantage on Greene in blocked shots, which is a function of system and minutes, imo, but I'm not going to dig hard for that stat rate. You could argue he gets tougher minutes, and that he LOOKS better as per the eye test, but again, Girardi isn't a significant upgrade on Greene by any metric. If there's an argument to be made, I'm all ears. He's better, but not by any degree that I'd be willing to make a trade to get him on this team.

you said it best yourself Hes a 2nd pairing version therefore agreeing with me.Imo if hes playing 2nd pairing hes better greene by definition as 2nd pairing is better then 3rd. I can't see how you can say any different. I would also argue that playing the kings system his number would also improve as pretty much all defense man corsi does. The eye test has him playing against better competition and looking a lot closer to solid then greene does against worse competition. Again a change of scenery would see him improve imo pretty much every defenseman does with our uber defensive system. I honestly think the change of scenery would benefit him. I am waiting to see greene without the injury before i declare him done but he was sure on his way before it. Having him with say muzzin would allow us to have that "luxury " of having a martinez on our 3rd pairing which you yourself seem to think was beneficial to us winning cups. Giradi is a 20 mins defenseman in the nhl on a contender greene at this point of his career is a 6 7

 

[Reaper45]

you said it best yourself Hes a 2nd pairing version therefore agreeing with me.Imo if hes playing 2nd pairing hes better greene by definition as 2nd pairing is better then 3rd. I can't see how you can say any different. I would also argue that playing the kings system his number would also improve as pretty much all defense man corsi does. The eye test has him playing against better competition and looking a lot closer to solid then greene does against worse competition. Again a change of scenery would see him improve imo pretty much every defenseman does with our uber defensive system. I honestly think the change of scenery would benefit him. I am waiting to see greene without the injury before i declare him done but he was sure on his way before it. Having him with say muzzin would allow us to have that "luxury " of having a martinez on our 3rd pairing which you yourself seem to think was beneficial to us winning cups. Giradi is a 20 mins defenseman in the nhl on a contender greene at this point of his career is a 6 7

Going off of your logic, McNabb is better than Muzzin.

 

[KingCanadain1976]

Going off of your logic, McNabb is better than Muzzin.

How so when there are nights where Muzzin plays more mins then McNabb and there are no nights where Greene plays more then garidi.Greene simply isn't capable of playing 2 pairing anymore when Muzzin clearly can play top 2. Also big difference being 2/3 then 4/6 apples vs oranges

 

[Mattias]

I think that was the moment that DL knew the Kings needed to trade youth for another established player, which lead to the Richards trade. When the Kings were still a bad team 3/4 of the way through the next season they finally traded for an elite winger and the rest is history.

That was depressing having Stoll as the #1 center, and having Zeiler replace Kopitar on the roster. The Kings gave it a hell of a go and the chokers up north almost blew it, but we were an awful team minus Kopi.

I agree. We stockpiled enough assets and cashed in at the right time. Stoll was *supposed* to be better that what we traded for. Schenn was looking like a future Richards and we threw a future Richards + some fair pieces (at the time) for a current Richards.

Hell of a sad thing that nearly everyone went boom.
Simmons went on to become a good power forward.
Schenn went boom.
Richards went boom.
Stoll went boom.

On a different level, that entire trade history was lose/lose for all. Most of the players now are not quality.

---

Loved how hard the Kings played against the Sharks that series. I knew it was over but was still proud of the team for playing hard as they did. Thornton's 'turtle' slide on the ice was like he won the cup, really Thornton?

 

[Fishhead]

I would rather just stick with the status quo than pick up Girardi. He would be a huge mistake.

Not only is he on a horrible contract, scoring chances against skyrocket when he's on the ice. The Kings thrive on a possession system, why compromise that with a player that's absolutely horrible at it? The Rangers are slightly above average with possession and Girardi still is a dumpster fire in that regard.

There's been 14 games and he's a -90 with regards to 5v5 shot attempts, by far the worst on his team. That's insane after 14 games.

As a team, the Rangers are 28th at -84 SAT. If you took off Girardi and Staal, they would be 7th in the league at +65. That should tell you something about those two guys...

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

you said it best yourself Hes a 2nd pairing version therefore agreeing with me.Imo if hes playing 2nd pairing hes better greene by definition as 2nd pairing is better then 3rd. I can't see how you can say any different. I would also argue that playing the kings system his number would also improve as pretty much all defense man corsi does. The eye test has him playing against better competition and looking a lot closer to solid then greene does against worse competition. Again a change of scenery would see him improve imo pretty much every defenseman does with our uber defensive system. I honestly think the change of scenery would benefit him. I am waiting to see greene without the injury before i declare him done but he was sure on his way before it. Having him with say muzzin would allow us to have that "luxury " of having a martinez on our 3rd pairing which you yourself seem to think was beneficial to us winning cups. Giradi is a 20 mins defenseman in the nhl on a contender greene at this point of his career is a 6 7

You're ignoring the rest of what I said. I acknowledged that Girardi is better than Greene, I've just provided proof it's not by much, and certainly not worth giving up assets for. "Playing in the Kings system" can improve one's corsi numbers but not in that way, the numbers i showed you were numbers relative to the team--on a good possession team, Girardi is just about the worst for the last several years relative to his team. That's not something that gets fixed by coming to the Kings. Think Regehr. "looking close to solid" in 2nd pairing minutes is not something that makes us any better. And all of that, the physical wear and tear, the slowness, all comes with a hefty salary. An easy "no, thank you", he does not fit here in any way.

 

[YP44]

Colorado may not. I certainly would. And I'm of the opinion that Gaborik will be bouncing back.

Yup, I would do it in an instant. Not only is Iggy the better player but he has a the shorter contract.
Hell I would even add Greene

 

[Reaper45]

How so when there are nights where Muzzin plays more mins then McNabb and there are no nights where Greene plays more then garidi.Greene simply isn't capable of playing 2 pairing anymore when Muzzin clearly can play top 2. Also big difference being 2/3 then 4/6 apples vs oranges

You said it yourself, if a guy plays on the second pairing he's automatically better than the third pairing guy. McNabb is currently in the first pairing, Muffin man is on the second pairing.

 

[Ron*]

 

[KingCanadain1976]

You said it yourself, if a guy plays on the second pairing he's automatically better than the third pairing guy. McNabb is currently in the first pairing, Muffin man is on the second pairing.

Seriously huge difference in talent between 2/3 and 5/6 Not the same thing. A 6 defenseman is one that just make the club or is just hanging on imo. Muzzin still plays more then McNabb on some nights due to special teams ice times. The difference in talent between 3 /4 and 5/6 is greater then 1/2 and 3/4 there lies the difference.2nd pairing defenseman have more talent for the most part then a 6 th defenseman like greene

 

[KingCanadain1976]

You're ignoring the rest of what I said. I acknowledged that Girardi is better than Greene, I've just provided proof it's not by much, and certainly not worth giving up assets for. "Playing in the Kings system" can improve one's corsi numbers but not in that way, the numbers i showed you were numbers relative to the team--on a good possession team, Girardi is just about the worst for the last several years relative to his team. That's not something that gets fixed by coming to the Kings. Think Regehr. "looking close to solid" in 2nd pairing minutes is not something that makes us any better. And all of that, the physical wear and tear, the slowness, all comes with a hefty salary. An easy "no, thank you", he does not fit here in any way.

Well i was just disagreeing with your hes not a upgrade when he is now you want to twist it fine. He would be a upgrade imo. You stated several months ago you did not want to go into the playoffs with muzzin and martinez as the 2nd pairing This trade would allow martinez to drop a line with Girardi getting 2nd line with muzzin the corsi god. I think Muzzin would be the perfect partner for Girardi . I disagree with you i think it would be a lot better with kings.
As for giving up assets for him Lets look at exactly what we would be giving up Gaborik for him. We have lucic brown pearson clifford all capable of playing lw right now. My favourite player Dwight King is coming back in less then a month i think We will need a roster move to get him in the lineup. Also we have Micheal Mersch who i think needs to come up asap. We have a lw to trade so we re not losing anything really except a long term contract.
Next how much is this going to really increase our cap The deal proposed was Girardi at 5 million cap hit. so its only costing us $125 k more Now with this deal we would have to get rid of Greene as well so in reality we are saving over 2 million by making this trade . So reality is we would save cap room in the end of things.

 

[KopitarFAN]

Was listening to a radio clip from the Mayor, and he brought up an interesting point about the Kopi negotiation.

Re-signing with the Kings at $9M or $9.5M x 8 is $72M or 76M, or sign elsewhere for $11M x 7, $77M total. Is that $5M or less worth it? I guess we'll find out.

 

[gnarls barkley]

still dont understand a lot of you complaining game in and game out about the depth guys on this team as if they're the issue here

Amart is not a problem, King is not a problem, Greene is not a problem, Lewis is not a problem

it's the guys underperforming RELATIVE TO THEIR CONTRACTS that is a problem going forwards

Greene is more or less equivalent to generally more regarded players like Girardi & Oduya, the difference is that his health is a bigger regular concern as of the last few seasons compared to those guys. Not to mention it's not like he's a key 2nd pairing guy for us (like Regehr was) when he's healthy anyways - we could do a LOT worse than Greene on that 3rd pairing @ 2.5M, we're just spoiled as always by generally serviceable (and relatively cheap) blueliners top to bottom.

King/Lewis are bargains for what they bring to the bottom six, I know that we struck gold with a lot of those guys from '12 on bargain contracts initially etc., but neither of those two specifically are paid exorbitantly enough to warrant the regular over the top reactions that they get here for apparently not playing like bonafide top 6ers on minimal contracts. Yes, we CAN replace them with cheaper youth from Ontario, in theory, but that's exactly it - theory. Look how Shore has been this year after everyone was so high on him down the stretch last season. AA isn't exactly setting the world on fire here either, and Weal has barely played (if at all?).

Any issues - and it's not like they're playing badly as a team right now either - rest firmly on the shoulders of the guys being paid the big money and not living up to that standard. To me so far, that's Brown (yes, he's snakebit...something has to give though), Gaborik, Kopitar to an extent, even Pearson has been somewhat unremarkable to me for a top 6 slot - and he's due for a raise as well. This team honestly lives and dies based on Carter/Toffoli production right now, and I hope you all realize that a one-line team isn't going to do **** in the playoffs, the rest of the squad needs to get cracking real soon if they want to contend again.

 

[Albi]

I agree. We stockpiled enough assets and cashed in at the right time. Stoll was *supposed* to be better that what we traded for. Schenn was looking like a future Richards and we threw a future Richards + some fair pieces (at the time) for a current Richards.

Hell of a sad thing that nearly everyone went boom.
Simmons went on to become a good power forward.
Schenn went boom.
Richards went boom.
Stoll went boom.

On a different level, that entire trade history was lose/lose for all. ?

Lose/Lose for all? Are you kidding me?
Richards was key in our first Cup run.
That is history. And it will last forever.

 

[Keith Sweaty]

I agree. We stockpiled enough assets and cashed in at the right time. Stoll was *supposed* to be better that what we traded for. Schenn was looking like a future Richards and we threw a future Richards + some fair pieces (at the time) for a current Richards.

Hell of a sad thing that nearly everyone went boom.
Simmons went on to become a good power forward.
Schenn went boom.
Richards went boom.
Stoll went boom.

On a different level, that entire trade history was lose/lose for all. Most of the players now are not quality.

---

Loved how hard the Kings played against the Sharks that series. I knew it was over but was still proud of the team for playing hard as they did. Thornton's 'turtle' slide on the ice was like he won the cup, really Thornton?

2 cups, definitely a lose/lose.

 

[Winger23]

I agree. We stockpiled enough assets and cashed in at the right time. Stoll was *supposed* to be better that what we traded for. Schenn was looking like a future Richards and we threw a future Richards + some fair pieces (at the time) for a current Richards.

Hell of a sad thing that nearly everyone went boom.
Simmons went on to become a good power forward.
Schenn went boom.
Richards went boom.
Stoll went boom.

On a different level, that entire trade history was lose/lose for all. Most of the players now are not quality.

---

Loved how hard the Kings played against the Sharks that series. I knew it was over but was still proud of the team for playing hard as they did. Thornton's 'turtle' slide on the ice was like he won the cup, really Thornton?

As others have mentioned, how the hell were these trades a lose for the kings? Yes it's sad how things ended for stoll and Richards, but if you were told before the trades they would end up winning two cups you make the trades every day of the week. Kings don't win the cup without these guys.