Roster Speculation 2015-16 Pt. III

[The Jangle Meister*]

So BM said he wants a top6 or top6 potential guy for Lehner (+)

was wondering if someone could give me an unbiased opinion of Mikhail Grigorenko
what you think he is, or will be in the NHL

 

[EichHart]

So BM said he wants a top6 or top6 potential guy for Lehner (+)

was wondering if someone could give me an unbiased opinion of Mikhail Grigorenko
what you think he is, or will be in the NHL

Would hate giving that much assets up for Lehner. Grigs still has to much unproven upside, it could come back to bite us. Look at the goalies in the finals, they just aren't that important.

 

[truthbluth]

So BM said he wants a top6 or top6 potential guy for Lehner (+)

was wondering if someone could give me an unbiased opinion of Mikhail Grigorenko
what you think he is, or will be in the NHL

He has the skill to be top 6 in the NHL. That is not really in question. There was a play he made in the preseason that I think about. He picked a players pocket at center ice and whipped a quick pass to LW, and then took off up the ice. The centering pass came back to him, 10 feet in front of the net, and about 6 inches off the ice. He settled the puck out of the air and roofed it in basically one motion. That is his skill set. Long reach, good puck skills, lethal shot. He shows some ability in the defensive zone, and he improved over the course of his first full pro season.

That said...

He's not a TM guy, which makes me wonder wether he's a BM guy. He doesn't have that motor that the Murrays like. Think of Semin. Great skill, inconsistent, never sure how committed he is to winning.

I think there is about a 10% chance that he's with the Sabres by the start of the season. I'm just not sure Ottawa is the right fit. Tell us about Lehner.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

[...]

If all it took was Grigorenko, I'd love the deal too - but I see the Leafs wanting a huge haul for JVR, such as.....


No doubt a 1st rounder would have to go back along with 1-2 top prospects. JVR's size and age are in the prime range every team craves.[...]

I think a package involving a first rounder ( 21OA) and Grigorenko would do the job. Since we're rebuilding for the first time, many of our fans are really over-estimating values. Seeing that we are more likely to retain Kadri, I think JVR being moved is a possibility. Someone like Grigorenko would secure our #2C spot and rightfully push Holland to the third line.

What would JVR actually bring to this team?

Consistent offense? Nope. Possession through skill (zone entries)? Nope. Possession through effort (forechecking)? Nope. Defense that abets somebody else's offense? Nope.

Dude sucks.

JVR is a possession-based forward if the line is designed to play that kind of style of game. When on Kadri's line, he was retrieving pucks and played more of a cycle game. On Kessel's line which was supposed to be a fast attacking line centred by a defensively-weak, playmaking #3C, JVR depends a lot more on speed.

Put him on a heavier line with Eichel and he'll thrive. It would actually make more sense to plug in Kane with Reinhart which would create two devastating top lines. I think that's what contenders require IMO.

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

What would JVR actually bring to this team?

Consistent offense? Nope. Possession through skill (zone entries)? Nope. Possession through effort (forechecking)? Nope. Defense that abets somebody else's offense? Nope.

Dude sucks.

JVR has averaged 29 goals per 82 games the last 3 seasons.His career GPG is exactly the same as Evander Kane's.Saying JVR "sucks" is false.He is every bit a top 6 winger as Kane is,except unlike Kane JVR has multiple 20+ goal seasons.Saying JVR doesn't bring consistent offense is false, since he is a proven 25 goal scorer.Last time I checked the Sabres just had back to back seasons of the worst offensive output in recent NHL history.We had ONE guy score 20 goals this season.JVR definitely fills a BIG need.We need proven top 6 wingers who are locks for 25+ goals.And that is what JVR is.

JVR is exactly the type of top 6 winger we need.Big,productive and is the right age at 26.And the last 2 seasons he has scored 27 and 30 goals per.And those were not flukes because his shooting percentage the last 2 seasons were exactly what he has shot at for his career.

I'd gladly trade 21+Grigs for JVR if we can't move up.At 21 you are only wishing that the guy you take turns out as good as a JVR.I know he's a Leaf but saying he sucks is an extreme hyperbole.

 

[OkimLom]

JVR has averaged 29 goals per 82 games the last 3 seasons.His career GPG is exactly the same as Evander Kane's.Saying JVR "sucks" is false.He is every bit a top 6 winger as Kane is,except unlike Kane JVR has multiple 20+ goal seasons.Saying JVR doesn't bring consistent offense is false, since he is a proven 25 goal scorer.Last time I checked the Sabres just had back to back seasons of the worst offensive output in recent NHL history.We had ONE guy score 20 goals this season.JVR definitely fills a BIG need.We need proven top 6 wingers who are locks for 25+ goals.And that is what JVR is.

JVR is exactly the type of top 6 winger we need.Big,productive and is the right age at 26.And the last 2 seasons he has scored 27 and 30 goals per.And those were not flukes because his shooting percentage the last 2 seasons were exactly what he has shot at for his career.

I'd gladly trade 21+Grigs for JVR if we can't move up.At 21 you are only wishing that the guy you take turns out as good as a JVR.I know he's a Leaf but saying he sucks is an extreme hyperbole.

I'm on the same side as you where I think JVR is better than what people think. At many times this season JVR was one of Toronto's top guys. He would fit very well on Buffalo. I think he gets a bad rep for the team he plays on currently. He would bring a net presence we need on this team.

With that said, I'm pretty sure #21 + Grigs is not enough for JVR. I'm not sure what the package Toronto is asking for him, but I'm sure, it's a package that would include one of the higher priority core pieces. The most I would give up for JVR is #21 + Grigs + Zadorov, if that isn't enough for him, then oh well. He's a good player, but I'm not good enough for me where he would be worth an important piece of our core. And I'm putting Zadorov at the bottom of our core guys in terms of importance.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

JVR has averaged 29 goals per 82 games the last 3 seasons.His career GPG is exactly the same as Evander Kane's.Saying JVR "sucks" is false.He is every bit a top 6 winger as Kane is,except unlike Kane JVR has multiple 20+ goal seasons.Saying JVR doesn't bring consistent offense is false, since he is a proven 25 goal scorer.Last time I checked the Sabres just had back to back seasons of the worst offensive output in recent NHL history.We had ONE guy score 20 goals this season.JVR definitely fills a BIG need.We need proven top 6 wingers who are locks for 25+ goals.And that is what JVR is.

JVR's ES goal scoring rate is worse than the likes of Girgensons and Glendenning. He gets his production from being a big fish in a small pond on the Toronto roster and getting to ride shotgun with an actual first line player X undeserved PP time.

JVR is exactly the type of top 6 winger we need.Big,productive and is the right age at 26.And the last 2 seasons he has scored 27 and 30 goals per.And those were not flukes because his shooting percentage the last 2 seasons were exactly what he has shot at for his career.

Those are flukes/not sustainable in our situation because they came at the expense of things that good teams like their first lines to do beyond scoring goals, like driving possession and winning their matchups.

I'd gladly trade 21+Grigs for JVR if we can't move up.At 21 you are only wishing that the guy you take turns out as good as a JVR.I know he's a Leaf but saying he sucks is an extreme hyperbole.

I don't want any player on my hockey team to turn out like JVR. He's a one dimensional goalscorer, not a reliable two way forward/big bodied power forward who happens to score 25+ while impacting every shift.

**** that guy, and **** spending assets on him.

 

[zenthusiast]

He's a hell of an effective fluke to be top-20 in goals over the past three years. I'm not paying a ransom for him but it's not like players of his caliber grow on trees.

Similarly it's not like you can stock a top-6 with 6 marian hossas

 

[sabrebuild]

He's a hell of an effective fluke to be top-20 in goals over the past three years. I'm not paying a ransom for him but it's not like players of his caliber grow on trees.

Similarly it's not like you can stock a top-6 with 6 marian hossas

We should try tho, and you know for sure that jvr is not that guy.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

He's a hell of an effective fluke to be top-20 in goals over the past three years. I'm not paying a ransom for him but it's not like players of his caliber grow on trees.

Similarly it's not like you can stock a top-6 with 6 marian hossas

He's been top 30 in ESG/60 zero times in the past three seasons while bringing nothing else to the table except a frame and draft-scouting-report that makes him look like a powerforward or two-way guy until you actually watch him play.

Playing him with Eichel, Reinhart or another young center means more defense, possession, and creating-play-for-others work for that kid. Forcing green NHL players to do the shift-by-shift little things out of the gate or fail themselves, their linemates, and the team is bad player development.

**** Hossa, I prefer Jochen Hecht and his ilk to JVR.

 

[Jame]

He's been top 30 in ESG/60 zero times in the past three seasons while bringing nothing else to the table except a frame and draft-scouting-report that makes him look like a powerforward or two-way guy until you actually watch him play.

Playing him with Eichel, Reinhart or another young center means more defense, possession, and creating-play-for-others work for that kid. Forcing green NHL players to do the shift-by-shift little things out of the gate or fail themselves, their linemates, and the team is bad player development.

**** Hossa, I prefer Jochen Hecht and his ilk to JVR.

I'm with you on JVR.... But **** Hossa?

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

I'm with you on JVR.... But **** Hossa?

As in nevermind/forget. Not as in I don't like Hossa the player.

I could stand to use a little more variation in my word choices.

 

[OkimLom]

He's been top 30 in ESG/60 zero times in the past three seasons while bringing nothing else to the table except a frame and draft-scouting-report that makes him look like a powerforward or two-way guy until you actually watch him play.

Playing him with Eichel, Reinhart or another young center means more defense, possession, and creating-play-for-others work for that kid. Forcing green NHL players to do the shift-by-shift little things out of the gate or fail themselves, their linemates, and the team is bad player development.

**** Hossa, I prefer Jochen Hecht and his ilk to JVR.

Haha, Hossa sounds exactly like the type of player you would want on this team.

But I commend the passion you seem to have with on this stance.

EDIT: Disregard comment about Hossa as I took it out of context/didn't understand what you meant

 

[Jame]

As in nevermind/forget. Not as in I don't like Hossa the player.

I could stand to use a little more variation in my word choices.

Clarified

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Hossa is like exactly the player I want to teach a kid how to play in the NHL.

 

[Jame]

Hossa is like exactly the player I want to teach a kid how to play in the NHL.

Exactly. Which is why your previously comment came off as schizo

Ps Palat is the new Hossa

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

JVR's ES goal scoring rate is worse than the likes of Girgensons and Glendenning. He gets his production from being a big fish in a small pond on the Toronto roster and getting to ride shotgun with an actual first line player X undeserved PP time.


Those are flukes/not sustainable in our situation because they came at the expense of things that good teams like their first lines to do beyond scoring goals, like driving possession and winning their matchups.


I don't want any player on my hockey team to turn out like JVR. He's a one dimensional goalscorer, not a reliable two way forward/big bodied power forward who happens to score 25+ while impacting every shift.

**** that guy, and **** spending assets on him.

JVR is 25th over the last 3 seasons in ESG ahead of guys like Marleau,Hall,Kopitar,Parise etc.You know, not every player on a team has to be a Selke winning defensive forward.The Sabres are in no position to turn their nose up at a guy like JVR.

Patrick Kane doesn't PK.Should he be held in less regard because he only plays at ES and the PP?You are making it seem like JVR is benefiting from who he plays with and that he is a James Neal type which is false.

Next your going to say you would rather have Matt Ellis on your team then JVR.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

JVR is 25th over the last 3 seasons in ESG ahead of guys like Marleau,Hall,Kopitar,Parise etc.You know, not every player on a team has to be a Selke winning defensive forward.The Sabres are in no position to turn their nose up at a guy like JVR.

He was top 30 in one of those seasons. He's a compiler who loses both his ease of deployment and quality of linemate from those seasons anyway because we're trying to develop players.

Patrick Kane doesn't PK.Should he be held in less regard because he only plays at ES and the PP?You are making it seem like JVR is benefiting from who he plays with and that he is a James Neal type which is false.

Patrick Kane is a first liner on any team in the league who is: at worst an equal goal scorer, several tiers ahead as a playmaker, and significantly better at using his skillset to generate zone entries and possession. That's how good you have to be to shirk defensive responsibility on the type of team Buffalo is trying to be. But don't learn the lesson Pittsburgh did when they traded their last chip for David Perron, that's cool too.

Next your going to say you would rather have Matt Ellis on your team then JVR.

Hecht was arguably more elite at his role than JVR is at his, and has a skillset that serves as a catalyst for his linemates' offense instead of leeching off their production. I know which one I want around developing players, and he's never played for the Maple Leafs.

If we're trading for a winger who isn't an obvious first liner, his skillset must focus on possession, defense, and shift-by-shift consistency so our young talent can build from their strengths out.

 

[Beerz]

Ranger fans seem receptive to Pysyk + 21 for Marc Staal

 

[OkimLom]

JVR is 25th over the last 3 seasons in ESG ahead of guys like Marleau,Hall,Kopitar,Parise etc.You know, not every player on a team has to be a Selke winning defensive forward.The Sabres are in no position to turn their nose up at a guy like JVR.

Patrick Kane doesn't PK.Should he be held in less regard because he only plays at ES and the PP?You are making it seem like JVR is benefiting from who he plays with and that he is a James Neal type which is false.

Next your going to say you would rather have Matt Ellis on your team then JVR.

I think the argument why some don't want JVR is, Struckbyaparkcar correct me if I'm wrong, essentially, if you're signing a guy like JVR, who doesn't have the two-way game, power forward possession type of game that Murray covets, then you must be able to provide substantial offense, especially if you're playing the 1st line, and unfortunately JVR doesn't provide enough offense for some of the posters.

I like the guy, but I don't think he would be on my 1st line. He would be on my "feasts on weak matchups" line. I like the type of skillset he has, but I feel Toronto would want a ridiculous amount of valuable assets, probably more than what I would be willing to give up.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Ranger fans seem receptive to Pysyk + 21 for Marc Staal

I wouldn't trade Pysyk for Staal straight up.

 

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[Matt Ress]

I've seen an urge for a first line sniper but, im not sure that's the best route. Assuming, eventually, your 1st is Kane and Eichel, you need a digger on that line to get pucks to the other guys. Is Larsson eventually that guy? I can see that but not another chucker on the line.

 

[tmack224]

Logan Couture

for

Reinhart and the 31st.

Thoughts?

 

[Jim Bob]

Logan Couture

for

Reinhart and the 31st.

Thoughts?

I wouldn't trade Reinhart for Couture straight up.