Speculation: Roster Building Thread XXXII: One Thing Leads to Another

[NYSPORTS]

I think the asking price is just that, they are asking for it but not likely expecting it. I'd expect it to be closer to the Hayes deal than what they are asking.

Not sure what to expect

Hayes was a rental and the return was nice
Kreider is a rental and is a better player
While neither McD or Miller were rentals and I hated the return

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Not sure what to expect

Hayes was a rental and the return was nice
Kreider is a rental and is a better player
While neither McD or Miller were rentals and I hated the return

With Hayes, the rumors were "Rangers want a 1st and a prospect." They got that.
Kreider is the better player BY FAR. I have confidence that Gorton is going to do the best he can here.

 

[Off Sides]

I like Kaut as part of a deal, not sure of his potential to break into the top 6 yet again could be a good gamble.

 

[Ola]

I'm not expecting that but it also doesn't work that way at all. One trade does not immediately set the market. Just because one team makes a bad trade or gives out a bad contract does not mean every other team must do the same.

Yeah you are right, and the big caveat is that nobody is dealing -- what THEY perceive -- as a grade A asset for a rental. When Washington made the Forsberg for Erat trade, they of course didn't know how good Forsberg instantly would become. He had/has some skating issues and so forth. I can't see how Gorton would have given TDA the contract that he did if he knew how good TDA would have been this year. Ottawa doesn't trade Ziba for Brassard if they knew how much he would have developed.

So you can of course get a grade A asset in a trade. But a top pick like Bowen Byram? Think we can rule that out. With someone like Kyrou its harder to know, but probably very unlikely. But he is like 21 and hardly destroying the NHL. Same with Newhook, you don't quite know for sure, but its of course easy to suspect that they never would deal him.

 

[Edge]

Maybe it’s because I’m associating this with Craig Berube...Maybe it’s because JF Berube looks closer to 40...but I’m fairly sure JF has been a third goalie in Norfolk since 1996.

I think it's also because, for whatever reason, he has a name that seems like it would be right at home in the IHL, circa the mid-90s, for the Peoria Rivermen.

 

[Vitto79]

Buch or Strome make more sense to Colorado just based on the way Salic does business and the fact that they have cap room next year

True ... we could see Kreider resign and Strome move

 

[cheech70]

Kaut for Strome is that reasonable?

 

[Levitate]

I know it’s not a real reason to spend more to keep him but watching kreider dominate and then thinking teams don’t want to give up any real assets and are like offering a late first and Prospect that might be a bottom six player is just gross.

 

[Tawnos]

Not sure what to expect

Hayes was a rental and the return was nice
Kreider is a rental and is a better player
While neither McD or Miller were rentals and I hated the return

Kreider isn't that much more valuable, in a vacuum, than Hayes. The difference this year is that Hayes was the 3rd most valuable forward available, while Kreider is the top one.

You saw the same thing happening this year on the D market. Those prices on the D trades were relatively low, because the market was flooded.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Kreider isn't that much more valuable, in a vacuum, than Hayes. The difference this year is that Hayes was the 3rd most valuable forward available, while Kreider is the top one.

You saw the same thing happening this year on the D market. Those prices on the D trades were relatively low, because the market was flooded.

Hayes had 42 points with 18 goals when the Rangers traded him last year. Kreider has 45 with 24 goals. Yes, Hayes plays center, but points wise, as well as impact on the game, Kreider is a far superior rental than Hayes was.

 

[NYR Viper]

Why are people down on Kaut? 16 points in 31 games in the AHL at 20 years old. He's in his D+2 season and after a very slow start has proven to be improving.

As an aside, is his 2nd season after his drat year considered D+2 or D+1? Is 'D' his season after his draft year?

 

[Tawnos]

I know it’s not a real reason to spend more to keep him but watching kreider dominate and then thinking teams don’t want to give up any real assets and are like offering a late first and Prospect that might be a bottom six player is just gross.

This is the thing, though. Top-6 rentals typically garner bottom or middle-6 prospects in return. That's the nature of the rental itself. Players don't go for what their play would indicate they're truly worth. But at the deadline, they go for more than earlier in the same season, because the pressure is on and the cap hit itself is mitigated. Last year's top rental trade got a 1st, a good prospect, and ok prospect, and a conditional 1st. And Duchene was over a PPG at that point. Stone was also a rental, but his trade came with an extension, so he actually garnered a real top prospect.

There's nothing wrong with getting those types of players, since you really need to fill out a whole roster. Getting the more talented players either happens at the draft, through other types of trades... and also through free agency.

Given that, I'm fine getting a middle-6 type of prospect like Kaut or Beecher. Hopefully, it also includes a youngish 3rd line type of player like Jost or Heinen as well, but I doubt it. Our biggest forward problem isn't talented top-6ers right now. It's depth. I think that's still true even after we trade Kreider.

To be clear, if Kreider was willing to sign a mid-term deal, I'd be all over it.

 

[Tawnos]

Why are people down on Kaut? 16 points in 31 games in the AHL at 20 years old. He's in his D+2 season and after a very slow start has proven to be improving.

As an aside, is his 2nd season after his drat year considered D+2 or D+1? Is 'D' his season after his draft year?

His draft year is the year in which he's draft eligible. So D+1 is the first season after being drafted.

 

[Inferno]

So, while I love CK and want them to re-sign him, I also see this argument. I would love to check out JG’s inbox.

That's what she said?

 

[Raspewtin]

I really really don't want to trade Buch

As is we don't have 12 NHL forwards (or, ideally, 12 forwards that should be in the NHL). We are already likely losing Fast and Kreider. Howden is stapled to the team despite being one of the worst regular forwards in the NHL. And we all pretty universally acknowledge that our forward prospects outside of Barron and Kravtsov really don't exist. I just don't see any logic for trading Buch unless it's for a bonafide top 4 LHD and even then im not keen on it.

 

[NYR Viper]

Adding depth also allows Gorton to move depth for a piece that becomes available. Those deals that are 3 or 4 for 1

 

[Vitto79]

Kaut for Strome is that reasonable?

Since Sakic could sign Strome I think so .. nyr may even get a pick too

 

[Tawnos]

I really really don't want to trade Buch

As is we don't have 12 NHL forwards (or, ideally, 12 forwards that should be in the NHL). We are already likely losing Fast and Kreider. Howden is stapled to the team despite being one of the worst regular forwards in the NHL. And we all pretty universally acknowledge that our forward prospects outside of Barron and Kravtsov really don't exist. I just don't see any logic for trading Buch unless it's for a bonafide top 4 LHD and even then im not keen on it.

I'm more more ok trading Buch if Kreider is being re-signed. I don't think both will be gone.

 

[LORDE]

I think the ask is high so Gorton gets his prospect he wants... not the pick

 

[TheBPA]

This is the thing, though. Top-6 rentals typically garner bottom or middle-6 prospects in return. That's the nature of the rental itself. Players don't go for what their play would indicate they're truly worth. But at the deadline, they go for more than earlier in the same season, because the pressure is on and the cap hit itself is mitigated. Last year's top rental trade got a 1st, a good prospect, and ok prospect, and a conditional 1st. And Duchene was over a PPG at that point. Stone was also a rental, but his trade came with an extension, so he actually garnered a real top prospect.

There's nothing wrong with getting those types of players, since you really need to fill out a whole roster. Getting the more talented players either happens at the draft, through other types of trades... and also through free agency.

Given that, I'm fine getting a middle-6 type of prospect like Kaut or Beecher. Hopefully, it also includes a youngish 3rd line type of player like Jost or Heinen as well, but I doubt it. Our biggest forward problem isn't talented top-6ers right now. It's depth. I think that's still true even after we trade Kreider.

To be clear, if Kreider was willing to sign a mid-term deal, I'd be all over it.

I know Duchene is a center (and also that markets change not only from year to year, but even from day to day as we've seen) but looking at what he returned, the ask for Kreider isn't unreasonable. To me Duchene has always been one of the kings of empty calorie points. If you're looking to win a playoff series, regardless of position, I'd much rather have Kreider on my team than Duchene.

 

[Inferno]

What's with all the love for kaut?

 

[Tawnos]

Why are people down on Kaut?

What's with all the love for kaut?

17 minutes apart. I'm not sure which one is really happening!

 

[Lion Hound]

I think it's also because, for whatever reason, he has a name that seems like it would be right at home in the IHL, circa the mid-90s, for the Peoria Rivermen.

My cousin was literally on the Rivermen 94/95. LOL!

 

[Raspewtin]

It's probably not realistic considering where we are in the standings but I'd really like to start getting other Hartford forwards a cup of coffee at the NHL level and maybe even 1 or 2 of the D. Particularly Rykov (though it looks like he's hurt again?), Gettinger, Fogarty (maybe), Kravtsov, and N. Jones. We were saddled with an awful, awful bottom 6 most of the year and it really hurt us in the standings and on the ice the first half of the year. I want to start getting an understanding of who we can trust at the NHL level with semi-significant minutes because I will gouge my eyes out if I have to watch McKegg, Smith, and Haley in the bottom 6 and we're supposed to be competitive.

I'm more more ok trading Buch if Kreider is being re-signed. I don't think both will be gone.

Fair but I really don't want Kreider back at the reported terms.

 

[Inferno]

17 minutes apart. I'm not sure which one is really happening!

I'll admit to only stat surfing here... But his numbers are hardly impressive.