Speculation: Roster Building Thread XXXII: One Thing Leads to Another

[Leetch3]

I hope it’s not influencing JG but obviously the Friday game against Carolina is tantamount to a playoff game. Wonder if he’s influenced to keep Kreider thru the weekend?

so far JG has shown zero to indicate that he is willing to break from the plan regardless of what is happening right now...of course JG also doesn't let anyone know anything so no one knows what the plan is lol

 

[NYRangers0723]

so far JG has shown zero to indicate that he is willing to break from the plan regardless of what is happening right now...of course JG also doesn't let anyone know anything so no one knows what the plan is lol

I was about to disagree with you until your last line. Nobody knows what the plan is. However the Rangers are a lot closer now they then were the previous two years so if we get another big win against Carolina and gain some ground it makes things very interesting

 

[GoAwayGiannone]

What are the chances that "shit" is uncensored and the curse word episode of South Park is on right now?

 

[Leetch3]

I was about to disagree with you until your last line. Nobody knows what the plan is. However the Rangers are a lot closer now they then were the previous two years so if we get another big win against Carolina and gain some ground it makes things very interesting

imo getting into the playoffs this year has zero impact on the decisions. if they make it great, its a great experience for the kids. but using JD's favorite phrase its about the 'big picture'. whether or not you trade or sign kreider, or anyone else, should be based on if it gets us closer to the ultimate goal, and that is not a wild card and first round exit

 

[RGY]

What words am I twisting? I think I'm being perfectly clear and you just don't really have a response.



Excellent ad hominem response. Do you have a substantive rebuttal?



Once again, I did not say it would not be beneficial. I said it is not MORE beneficial than acquiring top talent, nor is it vital to acquire said playoff experience THIS season.

I think we can agree that we want this team to win multiple cups in the next decade or so. Yes, playoff experience is important to that goal. But it's not more important than having top talent, because you first get the talent, and then you get experience for that talent. And if we are talking about a ten year window or so from this year (call it "year 1"), then said experience does not have to come in year one. It can come in year 2 or even year 3.

Because if you get all the experience in year 1, but then you are short on talent, you have a much harder time going back and fixing the talent deficiency. Whereas if you are short on playoff experience but you have the talent, the talent is gonna do a lot of winning in the regular season and then acquire said playoff experience very soon.

This goes back to what I said first: It's kinda historically demonstrated that drafting top players early in the draft is the best way to build a long term contender (in any sport, really).

I'd say we are 1-2 long term pieces away still. I feel comfortable saying we can parlay excess assets into ONE of those long term pieces. The other, I'd like to get in this draft. We have opportunity. We should maximize our chances.



I mean, at this point, you're not responding substantively to anything I have said.

Omg dude it is midnight and you want to have this argument right now about your BELIEF on how to build a team. One that is clearly based off of what happened in Chicago and Pittsburgh. i dont need to provide you a “substantive rebuttal” to your freaking opinion of how to build a team. Pitt and Chicago got lucky with their drafts. And guess what, Crosby was in the playoffs 2 years after his draft year. Kane was there 1 year afterwards. I dont know maybe making it did have a strong impact on their futures. Maybe it didnt. But for you to come on here and again pass your views and opinions off as fact is absolute bullshit. Thats all it is. Its bull. Your clogging up the thread with an essay telling everyone why theyre wrong and your right about how to build a team, when you dont know shit.

Yes you are twisting your own words around to essentially say the same thing. Your denying that you didnt say the playoffs werent important in one breath and then implying it in the next in a fancy way of saying it without actually saying it.

God I hope this team makes the playoffs to shove it up your ass. The arrogance about how a team should be built is so self absorbing. I hope they re-sign Kreider too for that same reason.

LGR.

 

[mas0764]

Not for nothing, but when @Edge drops the idea that in the right deal, Miller or Kravtsov could be available, that should be an indication that this organization isn’t necessarily just penciling in prospects as givens. They are going to explore trades for younger players that are already at the NHL. So, the draft isn’t necessarily going to be what the Rangers are relying on to complete this build. If they do get a 1st if they trade Kreider, it’s more likely than not going to be used to add an NHL-ready player and not so much to trade up in the first round.

Depending on what player it is, I'm ok with that.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Teams, including those outside Kreider’s realm? Flyers, Columbus, Montreal, Detroit.

Players - Hajek, Kravtsov, Miller.

Miller?!?

Just catching up here, but man, I would not move him unless a) a superstar is coming back or b) it’s 2-3 years down the line and he’s started to show signs of stagnation.

 

[mas0764]

also what “cores” of other teams experienced multiple years of losing that proved so beneficial? Which ones? Crosby/Malkin? Ovechkin/Backstrom? Kane/Toews? How long did those groups go for? Ovechkin didnt finally win ONE until 2 years ago. You are basing off a template from Chicago and Pittsburgh that had two teams step in shit with generational talents the years they had their top picks. Great example.

You edited this in, so I'll address it here:

All of the multi-year Cup winners of the last, oh, two decades, basically (let's call it post-lockout) had lead-ups to their dominance that included more than 2 years out of the playoffs. LA, Pittsburgh, and Chicago.

The Kings missed the playoffs 6 years in a row. The Blackhawks missed 5 in a row and 9 out of 10. The Penguins missed 4 in a row.

The Bruins missed twice and then twice again. They are a slightly different model but they clearly show consecutive playoffs missed doesn't hurt substantially.

The Capitals, even in winning ONE Cup, missed the playoffs three straight seasons (and were interrupted by a lockout, giving them four consecutive drafts picking highly). This only further demonstrates my point... yeah, we need another draft at the top to get more talent just to give ourselves Washington's chances.

You are saying teams needed to "step in shit." Well we got that last year with Kakko. We need to keep drafting well and we will be in that conversation with those teams. If we had hit a homerun and gotten Pettersson instead of Andersson, we would probably already be set on talent. But we didn't step in enough shit that year. Gotta hope we step in some THIS year. Because the talent on this team, by next season, Chytil and Kakko and Fox are gonna start carrying this team, and it's gonna make the playoffs. But we don't want to be in a situation where we are "good but not great" enough to win a Cup... or three.

One more draft saturation with a high end forward and then some hits later, should sufficiently stock our cupboards. I do think we need two more pieces, but if one comes from this draft, I think we have enough ammo to trade for the second down the line.

 

[mas0764]

Omg dude it is midnight and you want to have this argument right now about your BELIEF on how to build a team. One that is clearly based off of what happened in Chicago and Pittsburgh. i dont need to provide you a “substantive rebuttal” to your freaking opinion of how to build a team.

Well all we are doing is arguing opinions, though backed by evidence, but yes, and your position is just your "opinion." However I have clearly stated my case as to why I disagree with your opinion.

Pitt and Chicago got lucky with their drafts. And guess what, Crosby was in the playoffs 2 years after his draft year. Kane was there 1 year afterwards. I dont know maybe making it did have a strong impact on their futures. Maybe it didnt. But for you to come on here and again pass your views and opinions off as fact is absolute bullshit. Thats all it is. Its bull. Your clogging up the thread with an essay telling everyone why theyre wrong and your right about how to build a team, when you dont know shit.

Firstly, I didn't "tell you that you are wrong." I said I strongly disagree. That is the nature of message board debates. For having 17k posts I would think that you would have realized that by now, but I have not, in any way, deliberately attempted to be rude or disrespectful to you as you have been to me in this thread so far.

Second, I'm not "passing my opinion off as fact" any more than you are. I am expressing my opinion and backing it up with reasons and evidence. If you don't like that, then I don't know what to tell you, but that's what an argument is. But I've said why I think acquiring talent is more important, and then I expounded on the logic of those reasons and backed it with examples. Until your recent post-edit, you hadn't even had a response other than to attack my posts as "just my opinion."

But I do see that you are essentially now arguing that by citing Pittsburgh, LA, and Chicago as my models, you appear to be claiming that isn't a realistic path because they all got lucky.

I would counter that luck tends to follow teams selecting high in the draft. As it just did with us and Kakko last year.

Yes you are twisting your own words around to essentially say the same thing. Your denying that you didnt say the playoffs werent important in one breath and then implying it in the next in a fancy way of saying it without actually saying it.

I'm not twisting anything, you are failing to comprehend the nuance of what I'm saying, or you are deliberately obscuring it.

It is more important that this team get another top 6 forward than it is that this team make the playoffs this year. That is my opinion, in no way is it "fact," but there are some facts that support that opinion.

Additionally, there is the logic that, again, we will never again (for a decade or so at least) likely be in a position to supplement this core with another top draft pick. This year is our last chance. Whereas we can get this core experience in many subsequent years. That is why talent is more important... mainly, because it almost always must come first.

God I hope this team makes the playoffs to shove it up your ass. The arrogance about how a team should be built is so self absorbing. I hope they re-sign Kreider too for that same reason.

LGR.

You are an angry person.... maybe seek counseling. LGR.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Aw, shit.

Sorry, what’s this in reference to?

 

[Alluckks]

When Buchnevich scored and they did a cut to his mom high-fiving other moms... I would have died if when they cut to his mom she was just doing a standard stoic buch-face in reaction to his goal

 

[Maximus]

imo getting into the playoffs this year has zero impact on the decisions. if they make it great, its a great experience for the kids. but using JD's favorite phrase its about the 'big picture'. whether or not you trade or sign kreider, or anyone else, should be based on if it gets us closer to the ultimate goal, and that is not a wild card and first round exit

Totally agree. Only thing that is happening is that at the very very worst, we will be playing important games in March which will be immeasurable experience for the kids whether or not we deal Kreider or not.

Like you said playoffs tho unlikely still IMO would be part of the bonus plan and all gravy. Just the fact we are in a position we are in now is proof positive that the rebuild which has been orchestrated by Gorton to the dismay of some in here who for some reason don't like him or think he's not done a good job as has been stated quite a few times, has been let's be frank....masterful!!.

 

[bleedblue94]

Starting to wonder if a CK resign isn't going to affect ADA, but instead it will be contingent on trading buch.

And

If buch deal is to target a ld, then does a bunch deal line up a BS deal

And

If a BS deal happens than what kind of forward do we land and could this be the type of deal where we move BS and a prospect like kratsov for a player like nylander.

Fits the themes of multiple moving parts by our insiders, but who knows anymore...

 

[aufheben]

I'd take Dubois from the Bluejackets

Kravtsov wouldn’t return Dubois’ autograph.

 

[Ola]

so far JG has shown zero to indicate that he is willing to break from the plan regardless of what is happening right now...of course JG also doesn't let anyone know anything so no one knows what the plan is lol

Last spring there were very strong rumors (Friedman, Dreger and the likes, right? I don't remember exactly), from people having being fed info from Gorton before, that he was going after Panarin and someone like Trouba, and that he likely would go after a big RFA if that couldn't be achieved.

I can't help but to wonder, the first part was true, everyone thought the second part was ridiculous and it sounded like it came from Eklund, not some of the most trusted people out there, and while we of course never can know for sure, how can we rule out that the second part wasn't true?

So not saying that he would deviate from "his" plan, but I am not entirely sure that Gorton's plan is what everyone expectes it to be.

 

[egelband]

Kreiders value will never be higher, sell sell sell

So, while I love CK and want them to re-sign him, I also see this argument. I would love to check out JG’s inbox.

 

[egelband]

These GMs arent serious about adding Kreider.

I tend to agree. But I do think the Bruins GM actually has the balls to go for it. Not sure if that’s enough of a market to make a CK trade make sense. I suspect it will take another alpha to generate the necessary energy. Maybe the St Louis GM?
The other GMs all seem pretty low testosterone.

 

[Ola]

These GMs arent serious about adding Kreider.

Its great if expectations don’t run rampant re what Kreider would return.

But at the same time, this time of the year there are a lot of posturing. I always for example lol a bit when Brooks is trashed for having reported last minute negative info on deals that eventually came true.

If I were to guess I am sure in some instances that info came directly or indirectly from the top. Gorton makes a take it or leave it offer, the other team tries to call his bluff, boom the top NYR beat writer reports that a deal seem to be off. The player gets antsy and calls up his agent and wonders what the heck is going on and why he can’t close a deal with NY, and who knows, it might help.

Like we know for a fact that this is what Slats did with Zucc.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Zibanejad quietly on pace for 100pts over a full season.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Sorry, what’s this in reference to?

Funny you should mention him in the same sentence as Andersson. I’d keep that one top of mind.

@Edge was referring to Kaut with this post.

 

[EdJovanovski]

These GMs arent serious about adding Kreider.

I don’t know about you guys but just saying “pretty much” in reference to Byram & Newhook not being on the table, isn’t very definitive. You’d think he’d say they’re certainly off the table. I was someone who thought there’s no way we get either but that statement gives me more faith if anything.

 

[ZiGOODejad]

If Sakic continues to play it safe, that team is going to miss their window big time.

 

[Vitto79]

While I think Sakic should get a rental like Anderson as goalie insurance maybe but ones for a rfa like Georgiev w say Andersson for a 2nd , Kaut and smaller piece?

 

[EdJovanovski]

When Buchnevich scored and they did a cut to his mom high-fiving other moms... I would have died if when they cut to his mom she was just doing a standard stoic buch-face in reaction to his goal

LMAO I had this exact same thought

 

[Synergy27]

If Sakic continues to play it safe, that team is going to miss their window big time.

Yeah, probably not. We’re all bummed out that Sakic doesn’t seem ripe for fleecing but that team isn’t going to win or lose a Cup because of a deadline acquisition.