Good Intentions
Registered User
- Mar 30, 2018
- 2,155
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even worse. At least Sergachev was 2% feasible. And now we have new entries on Glass - an untouchable, conversation ender. The fantasy talk lives on with gusto.
Speculation: Roster building thread XXIV:
- Thread starter Gardner McKay
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even worse. At least Sergachev was 2% feasible. And now we have new entries on Glass - an untouchable, conversation ender. The fantasy talk lives on with gusto.
leetch99
Leetch66 Joined 2007
I'd be concerned that Glass....is made of glass after the little bump by Lemieux concussed him .
Blue Blooded
Most people rejected his message
Haven't read every post, but I'm not sure why things like "can DeAngelo handle a matchup role" and "can DeAngelo PK" are relevant to the question of exploring a Trouba trade before his movement clause kicks in.
It would (or rather should) be Fox who steps into that role who despite his small stature has the best defensive game on the team both by the numbers and the eye test. Now, he's done this in a somewhat sheltered role so it would be reckless to just assume he can handle it, but it's not like we don't have the opportunity of trying it out this year before you have to make the move. Let him play on the PK2 and play him in a matchup role for 10-20 games to see how it affects things. It's not really about the total minutes either, the three pairings see roughly the same amount of 5v5 minutes so it's more about directing his matchups with the top lines instead and his overall minutes shouldn't go up by too much.
It would (or rather should) be Fox who steps into that role who despite his small stature has the best defensive game on the team both by the numbers and the eye test. Now, he's done this in a somewhat sheltered role so it would be reckless to just assume he can handle it, but it's not like we don't have the opportunity of trying it out this year before you have to make the move. Let him play on the PK2 and play him in a matchup role for 10-20 games to see how it affects things. It's not really about the total minutes either, the three pairings see roughly the same amount of 5v5 minutes so it's more about directing his matchups with the top lines instead and his overall minutes shouldn't go up by too much.
I am not saying that we are getting Glass for a rental, but I am not sure what his status is. I don't think Vegas is convinced that he is more than a 3rd line guy.
On the other side of this spectrum, we were all declaring Tolvanen, Vesalainen, Kaut and guys like that untouchable last season, and since then their stocks has crashed.
True, but I really think we are fooling ourselves if we yet again think the result will be different if we pick a player in one environment and put him in the role Trouba is now and expect a different result. I -- REALLY -- think that is the case lol.
If anything Trouba is doing a great job handling that role despite being more exposed than ever.
Like the list is getting pretty effin long right now of examples were this absolutely has not worked out. Like first the Skjei-Smith pairing who looked greeeeeeat getting easy minutes would instantly be able to replace McD-Girardi, and they couldn't even remotely. Then Shatty would get the job done, it was a mess. Anyone but Pionk would be an upgrade, Pionk goes on to post awsome metrics for Winnipeg in a really tough and big role, despite being the worst ever for us. Trouba was a Norris Candidate according the metrics in Winnipeg, and then his metrics stinks in the same role everyone get awful metrics in.
Sure we can play Fox there, but the result would without any single doubt be comparable to what we saw when Pionk played there. Why? We have really good top units around us, our top unit is not good at handling those units. That shows on a shift-by-shift basis. Ziba isn't a good fit to match up against Boston's top line or Barzal or Crosby and co. He is too big, not mobile enough. He isn't bad and he is doing a really good job, but (a) the opponents top lines are just great, and (b) he isn't built for shut down duty.
I am sorry, but this is not going to change or go away until we find a UNIT that can handle those top units.
Amazing Kreiderman
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2011
- 45,072
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Because lsat season those guys were untouchable. Just like Lias was untouchable, until he ruined his career by flying home to Sweden. Things change.
Cody Glass is a rookie in the NHL, and currently recovering from an injury. He's playing in the NHL for them. Why would they give up that for a rental? It's the same as the "Burakovsky for Kreider" talk. It is a lateral move for those teams short-term and deadline deals are all about short-term gain. You're not getting an NHL player for a rental. Vegas isn't giving up Cody Glass. And Cody Glass is an NHL player at this point, even though he's a rookie who is still developing. Tolvanen, Vesalainen and Kaut aren't.
Look at it from their perspective. Would you trade Filip Chytil for a rental?
That is just bad excuses for DQ. Its a theme in this organization, the players must be held accountable but the coach and the GM aren't. Will anyone ask Gorton a question about his fetish about bridge-deals vis-a-vis Tony D? Of course not.
It was a bad move by DQ from my perspective. Buch was really singled out. Kreider was struggling a ton at the same point. Howden was completely under the ice. Buch had really stepped up his game and during a long stretch played really good hockey just up until that point, but DQ takes Buch off the ice and keeps sending Brendan Smith out there in a scoring role and it becomes a big thing.
The results speak for themselves, they were awful.
LaffyTaffy
Brooklyn-Belarussian
I completely disagree that DQ ruined Buch. People forget the player Buch was before DQ. Quinn helped make Buch the player he is, he’s simply having awful luck this season and its getting to his head. DQ developed Buch very well but right now when Buch sulks every time he hits a post he needs to bench him in order to try and get that mental weakness out of him. DQ is seriously not as bad of a coach as people make him out to be. His lineup choices are as bad as any other coach in the league but i mean come on some of the critiques are just ridiculous.
Maybe this is correct but if we move ADA in order to keep Trouba it will be a mistake.
The thing is, I am fairly certain that in some instances we may think kids are untouchable while in fact their organization, or anyone taking a close look at them probably for that matter, probably aren't that impressed.
I think Vesalainen is a good example. I don't think either Winnipeg nor Gorton would have held him higher than a 1st and Lemieux, like he had been on display on the big stage a lot and he is de facto just not a very great prospect, never been, never shown anything of the like. Mikko Raantanen comparisons that were thrown around here were just bad. He is an OK prospect. Has real NHL potential, but he won't become a star. Hopefully a serviceable NHLer. While in other cases someone that we maybe don't think is untouchable could be certainly have a tremendous value.
The valuation of these kids are painted with a little broad strokes.
Those are all pieces Boston would be happy to move for Kreider. So its not realistic. Heinen they can easily live without, replaced by Kreider. Zboril is looking like a 1st round bust or at the least someone who wont match his draft position. The 1st round pick is practically a 2nd. Of course they love that proposal
SA16
Sixstring
I don't think that is the same question. He's 3rd on the team in 5v5 TOI/game the last 10 games among forwards and he's playing almost exclusively on the top two lines. Quinn is very much giving him a chance to succeed.
Shesterkybomb
Registered User
- Dec 30, 2016
- 17,683
- 19,387
He had points but he wasnt playing well, if the coach doesnt do anything he isnt helping the team. Buch at this point needs to be consistent in his effort, I personally think that will never happen because I believe he is his own worst enemy, as his confidence gets shaken too easy and instead of digging in and playing smarter or harder he gets frustrated. I think we as a team are in a bad spot because Kravtsov, Kakko and Andersson were all supposed to be key contributors next year and it kinda looks like it might only be Kakko. If we are moving players we are going to need young players to fill those spots up front. This is a tough jam for the organization because if you move Buch, who you may feel isnt in the long term plans, who fills his role?
Oscar Lindberg
Registered User
This might seem like an incredibly hot take to some but it seems to me Quinn at least has some sort awareness what Buch brings when he's playing. He's not putting up a ton of points at the moment, but he does a lot of stuff that helps drive play
Which is why he's still playing top 6 minutes.
If he continues to do the things he's doing, the points will start to come more often
Which is why he's still playing top 6 minutes.
If he continues to do the things he's doing, the points will start to come more often
I never was high on lias, but kravstov has talent and hes gonna cook in the ahl for a while, kakko will be good once he gets his speed and conditioning up, plus the experience of a full season. Buch is a 3rd liner, always was and ppl think he could always give u more. The inconsistency and his fragile state of mind should be acknowledged by a team therapist and a session should be introduced. As for next year, i think we will be fine offensively and defense wise i feel like staal is either bought out or retired. We need to flip for a top 6 player and better d
aufheben
#Norris4Fox
Buchnevich is fine. You can’t just have a team full of first-line forwards.
I know that this is a message board and thus one for discussing issues, but Trouba is NOT getting traded. He is here for a very, very long time. His play has been not really all that different than when he was with the Jets. He has been pretty solid.
DeAngelo and Trouba do not depend on each other for trading value. They bring different things to the table. Things that the other one cannot and will not bring. You are not trading DeAngelo. 23 year old defensemen that are trending for 55-60 points simply do not grow on trees. Look at the names of those who have done in in the last 10 years, let alone at this early age. Again, unless the Jets want to talk about someone like Connor, DeAngelo is not going anywhere.
Trouba plays the toughest minutes on the team. He plays the hardest matchups on the team. DeAngelo cannot even come close to being able to do that. Frankly neither can Fox. Fox has very good IQ and am sure will develop into an adequate defender. But the likelihood of him becoming DeAngelo's equivalent on offense is small as is the chances of him being what Trouba is defensively. But that has nothing to do with him not developing into an excellent defenseman who plays fine D and contributes significantly to the offense. The fact of the matter is that he is at his best paired with Lindgren. There is a reason that their play has been improving steadily.
The desire to dismantle of what can be an excellent right side its pretty mind boggling. It is much more difficult to find RD than LD. And now there three. Keane is not here and is not likley to be as good (and I like him). Lundqvist is not even in North America and some are talking about him in a way that reminds me of the completely unrealistic expectations laid upon Kakko.
Or we can just get used to the idea that both will be here for a very long time
kinger8998
Registered User
It wasn't clear that it was an attempt at humor since it wasn't funny.
kinger8998
Registered User
This ^^^.
While I do see a potential to test the pairing of DeAngelo-Fox for the future, it is putting the cart way way way before the horse.
Lundkvist has serious potential, but he's not going to be top 4 quality any time soon, and when he does step into the NHL, it will still take atleast 2 years for him to be that. Keane is a good prospect, but he's better than and should not force a trade of the three really good RHD we have now.
I think people's immediate jump to trade is becasue the idea of paying DeAngelo to man the 3 RD slot for 5+ millionis not ideal. It could be beneficial to see if he can play left side long-term with fox, while Skjei(or someone else)-Trouba continue to handle tough minutes (hopefully under a different system too).
I think the current pairings of Skjei-Trouba, Lindgren-Fox, Staal/Rykov/Hajek-DeAngelo would work fine next season, they have serious potential, but the system is clearly hampering them. It's not the personnel, it's the environment they operate in.
An eventual move for Tony D to left side could be msot beneficial to the Rangers, but the idea of Keane/Lundkvist being the reason we split up the fantastic group we are starting to build here (especially RHD) is ludicrous
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