Roster Building Thread VI (2022-23): Offseason edition

[RangersFan1994]

Fast is the embodiment of how you want your team to play.

I miss the days when Rangers had hard working players not lazy players like Panarin and co.

 

[Synergy27]

Obviously it is because the even strength numbers and the 5v5 numbers are very different.

If you don't want to disregard 4v4, it makes way more sense to just look at 4v4.

Wouldn’t you think that the much larger 4v4 sample is where most of the difference lies? I don’t think one goal during 7 minutes of 3v3 is affecting the larger 1000 minute dataset. It’s the 4v4 data, which again, I find relevant to evaluating a player’s value.

 

[Machinehead]

Wouldn’t you think that the much larger 4v4 sample is where most of the difference lies? I don’t think one goal during 7 minutes of 3v3 is affecting the larger 1000 minute dataset. It’s the 4v4 data, which again, I find relevant to evaluating a player’s value.

4v4 is a smaller sample. It happens less.

Lafreniere played 5:15 at 4v4.

 

[Synergy27]

4v4 happens less than 3v3. It's more like hockey than 3v3, I'll give you that, but it's very uncommon.

Let’s pull the string on this. I admit I might just be wrong so I’m interested.

For whatever reason, naturalstattrick doesn’t have a 4v4 filter.

Laf played the following minutes during the last regular season:

1118:27 ES
1083:40 5v5
0006:57 3v3

So 1118 - 1083 = 35 more ES minutes. 7 of them are 3v3. You’re telling me the other 28 came at 6v5 and not mostly at 4v4?

Do you know of another site that has a 4v4 count/filter?

 

[Machinehead]

Let’s pull the string on this. I admit I might just be wrong so I’m interested.

For whatever reason, naturalstattrick doesn’t have a 4v4 filter.

Laf played the following minutes during the last regular season:

1118:27 ES
1083:40 5v5
0006:57 3v3

So 1118 - 1083 = 35 more ES minutes. 7 of them are 3v3. You’re telling me the other 28 came at 6v5 and not mostly at 4v4?

Do you know of another site that has a 4v4 count/filter?

EvolvingHockey does.

It's probably delayed penalties. That's technically even strength but the stats sites won't count them as 5v5.

You have to think guys are out for one of those at least once a game and they could be 30 seconds a pop. That's 41 minutes right there.

 

[Synergy27]

EvolvingHockey does.

It's probably delayed penalties. That's technically even strength but the stats sites won't count them as 5v5.

You have to think guys are out for one of those at least once a game and they could be 30 seconds a pop. That's 41 minutes right there.

Cool thank you. This is helpful.

 

[Guyute]

Zibanejad had 31 even strength when he was 21. He had 37 even strength points at 22 (sorry I don’t have the data without 3v3, 4v4, and 6v5 you patronizing …).

Then, Ottawa got sick of him and stupidly traded him to NYR for Brassard. Zibanejad wasn’t immediately good when he joined the Rangers. In fact he was oftentimes infuriating, but he eventually became a great player.

NYR cannot give up on Laf and Kakko at 21 and 22. I’d rather have them for another several years and if they’re busts, so be it.

 

[Savant]

Zibanejad had 31 even strength when he was 21. He had 37 even strength points at 22 (sorry I don’t have the data without 3v3, 4v4, and 6v5 you patronizing …).

Then, Ottawa got sick of him and stupidly traded him to NYR for Brassard. Zibanejad wasn’t immediately good when he joined the Rangers. In fact he was oftentimes infuriating, but he eventually became a great player.

NYR cannot give up on Laf and Kakko at 21 and 22. I’d rather have them for another several years and if they’re busts, so be it.

Lafreniere also does not have any of Zibanejad’s physical tools. There is nothing that Lafreniere does to impact a NHL game better than Ottawa Zibanejad did

 

[EdJovanovski]

Zibanejad had 31 even strength when he was 21. He had 37 even strength points at 22 (sorry I don’t have the data without 3v3, 4v4, and 6v5 you patronizing …).

Then, Ottawa got sick of him and stupidly traded him to NYR for Brassard. Zibanejad wasn’t immediately good when he joined the Rangers. In fact he was oftentimes infuriating, but he eventually became a great player.

NYR cannot give up on Laf and Kakko at 21 and 22. I’d rather have them for another several years and if they’re busts, so be it.

I think you’re underestimating how good Mika was when he got here, I remember thinking he was Ovi-lite with that rocket of a shot in his first preseason here. He paced for 54pts his first season here, and a 62pt pace in the playoffs

 

[Guyute]

I think you’re underestimating how good Mika was when he got here, I remember thinking he was Ovi-lite with that rocket of a shot in his first preseason here. He paced for 54pts his first season here, and a 62pt pace in the playoffs

He wasn’t great. He was on pace for 28 (!!!) even strength points in his 24 year old season. He didn’t break out until his 25 yo season.

Everyone on this board would demand trading away Laf and Kakko if they scored 28 ES points next year. We would receive 5 cents on the dollar and watch them break out on other teams. Then we would whine about it for 10+ years.

 

[bernmeister]

I'm still not moving Miller unless the Rangers are getting a blue chip prospect and a 1st back at least. Something like Guhle and a 2024 1st from Montreal.

The problem with Miller is that he hasn't decided what he wants to be yet. If he wants to be Marc Andre Bergeron, he needs to work on his shot over the summer. If he wants to be a two way defenseman, he needs to work on his defensive zone positioning and short passing in the defensive zone. Since Spit Gate, he has been second guessing himself. It's 95% mental with him. Give him a coach that will work with him and I still think he can be a 50 point defenseman on PP2 that's great in his own zone. You don't trade that type of player just for the sake of making a trade.

I move Lindgren 10 out of 10 times if it's between him and Miller. Whoever pays Lindgren next is going to regret it in year 2 or 3 of the contract. He's young but a lot of miles already. He's someone that declines at 29 or 30 and is retired by 33 or 34. Better to trade someone like him a year too early than a year too late. He's someone that will be worth more around the league than a lot of us think. If he gets dealt, I'd wager we'd be surprised in a good way with how much he nets.
...

Fully concur except as to underline; unless he is adamant about abandoning D, we should strongly encourage he stay there.
Hopefully he stays at what I'm calling: 6.25 x 8

 

[bernmeister]

It's not even that we have too much tied up in the top4. It's that the top4 is dead weight barring Fox

Problem with this is Drury likes Trouba and if I remember correctly ( pretty sure Edge said something of the likes ) he was the one petitioning for him to be Captain even last season.

We talk about Trouba being moved for fun speculation but if any big contract is moved it's Panarin. I do not think Drury likes his game and even 'leaked' it last playoffs.

If bread goes quickly, it will slow how fast trouba needs to be moved.
Whether JT likes it or not, he can still handle D duties vs some, but may likely need to be transitioned into a 4RW if he can't skate well enuf

 

[SA16]

Zibanejad had 31 even strength when he was 21. He had 37 even strength points at 22 (sorry I don’t have the data without 3v3, 4v4, and 6v5 you patronizing …).

Then, Ottawa got sick of him and stupidly traded him to NYR for Brassard. Zibanejad wasn’t immediately good when he joined the Rangers. In fact he was oftentimes infuriating, but he eventually became a great player.

NYR cannot give up on Laf and Kakko at 21 and 22. I’d rather have them for another several years and if they’re busts, so be it.

Zibanejad's skill was immediately obvious from his first preseason game and you could see him making plays with the puck. They shouldn't give up on them but "This player started slow and broke out when he got older so our plays will do the same" isn't exactly a great argument. Plenty of players start slow and stay that way.

His years in Ottawa were also in a much lower scoring league environment and in his first full years he scored 1.93 pts/60 despite only shooting 4.5%. He followed it up with 1.76 and a 9.2% sh%. Both higher point rates than Laf has had with lower shooting percentages. The league scored 3.18 goals/game this year. In Zibanejad's age 21 season they scored 2.74.

And if we want to talk about ice time Zibanejad got less 5v5 ice time his full two years in Ottawa than Lafreniere has ever got as a Ranger. Lafreniere had more 5v5 ice time this year than Zibanejad got in any of his seasons in Ottawa. If we want to talk about linemates his most common linemates those years were Milan Michalek, Cory Conacher, (Jason Spezza), and Erik Condra. It didn't ruin him.

 

[McRanger92]

The Rangers need to let K'Andre Miller off the leash if they want him to realize his full potential. With Igor back to cover up any mistakes, Miller and Fox should both have free reign from the next coach to do whatever they want in the offensive zone. Like a hybrid Carolina system. Hank said it on TNT last night, but the Canes players trust each other and their system so much they know if a D-man pinches, someone will cover for them on the back end. Fox and Miller should be used as weapons, both guys become more effective the closer they are to the other team's goal. Miller in particular should be used like Byfuglien and Burns were used earlier in their careers.

 

[bernmeister]

Just because he is good, doesn't mean we had to spend the money on him. In hindsight it wasn't the time and the place to lock in that much cap% for that many years, it's rare that doing things that way is successful long term. Developing fast, young, cheap scoring has been key to all of these recent analytic darling uber successful monsters like Tampa and Carolina. Finding Point/Cirelli/Svech types and putting them in the right positions and empowering them to succeed (not just jumbling them together and hoping they still thrive), making cap smart commitments on long term contracts to keep down AAV.


I hope it's still salvageable since we had our chance to do that with the #1 and #2 overalls which have been blocked by Bread. It's such a bitter sweet feeling because I love Panarin and want nothing more than for it to work out for him here, but I just don't see how we can win after stunting the kids development and fostering this country club culture that just can't play playoff hockey. We should have spent that money on finding holes that fit a vision, not just throwing the best players possible together like it's EA NHL. Maybe a good coach with an actual system can save it, but I just don't see it.

props for tellin it like it is
go w/bern on this

 

[bernmeister]

Just stack the top six. A stacked rangers top six is more than enough to get into the playoffs. You fix the depth issues at the TDL. There's not much you can do with this roster. It's all hoping a coach comes along that can integrate the kids into the top six and makes everyone play a structured system...including Panarin.

Panarin/Mika/Kakko
Kreider or Laf/Trocheck/Chytil

That's all you need. Moving Chytil up gives the coach more of a matchup third line which is the best you can hope for with the cap space the rangers have until the TDL rolls along. Chytil isn't going to forget how to play center. If Mika or Trocheck goes down he can easily step in for one of them.

intent is good
execution is bad
bread out of top 6
Oth. w/kreid + Zib = 1st l
kid l = 2nd l w/mo mins
bread to 3rd line w/Cuylie + Tro
if Panarin doesn't like it, again,
1. kiss my ass
2. if less mins + embarassment helps get him outta here sooner, then yes!

 

[MrAlmost]

If there is any truth to that Panarin for Tkachuk rumor and Panarin is the reason we couldnt get him, I will never like Gorton, JD or Panarin ever again.

 

[JimmyG89]

 

[Guyute]

Is Drury deliberately trying to piss us all off?

 

[SA16]

About time. They won the cup in 93-94. Hired him that summer. Haven't won a thing since. How many other people last on a team for 30 years with no success?

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

If there is any truth to that Panarin for Tkachuk rumor and Panarin is the reason we couldnt get him, I will never like Gorton, JD or Panarin ever again.

There’s a negative percent chance any sort of rumor like this is true

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

I gotta give Marc Staal credit. The guy is absolutely cooked physically, but he keeps trudging out there. He's been cooked for a while, but yet he still eats up those minutes (albeit being a liability).

 

[duhmetreE]

If Mark Ciaciaicjicollo is still here.... We have serious problems

We stayed healthy at least... but maybe it's time to take our training/health to the next level?

The entire front office needs an overhaul. It's 2023. We've been stuck in Sathers 80's for waaaaaay too long

 

[duhmetreE]

Mark Ciaccio was coming off the ice after working a 2013 skating camp in Boston when his phone rang.

He didn't recognize the number, but he knew it was a New York area code.

"'This is Glen Sather, the president and general manager of the New York Rangers,'" said the voice at the other end.

The Hall of Fame executive didn't offer any details; he just asked Ciaccio, who was the skills coach for the Phoenix Coyotes at the time, to get on a plane.

"This was a Friday," he recalled. "He goes, 'What are you doing Monday?' I go, 'I'm going to be home in Phoenix.' He goes, 'No, I want to fly you to New York. … Just make sure you bring your skates.'"

Ciaccio obliged and showed up the MSG Training Center in Tarrytown, which is less than 20 miles from his hometown of Suffern.

There, he ran three players — Ryan Callahan, Carl Hagelin and Dylan McIlrath — through a 45-minute skate, all while Sather, senior vice president Jim Schoenfeld, assistant general manager Jeff Gorton and Rangers legend Adam Graves observed from the bench.

When the session was through, Sather presented Ciaccio with an offer to join the Rangers as their new full-time skills coach.

"That’s how I became a New York Ranger," he said. "For me to come here is definitely the lifelong dream."

UN-DO IT.

ANYONE GIVEN A JOB BY SATHER NEEDS TO GO. DRURY CAN SERVE HIS PURPOSE THEN GO TOO. CLEAN HOUSE

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

If there is any truth to that Panarin for Tkachuk rumor and Panarin is the reason we couldnt get him, I will never like Gorton, JD or Panarin ever again.

Haven't heard that rumor but there is a less than 0% chance Panarin would've ever waived his NMC to go to Calgary. There's a better chance in us trading Lafreniere for McDavid 1 for 1 than Panarin waiving his NMC to go to Calgary.