Roster Building Thread VI (2022-23): Offseason edition

[Fitzy]

Zib and Fox earned a mulligan after last year

Panarin was bad last postseason too

 

[LokiDog]

I would say objectively that Trouba is the far worse player and the far worse value for what he provides. I'll allow that there may be something "under the surface," with Panarin that might be more concerning and need to be excised though, whereas Trouba is a net positive in the locker room at least (though that is overrated by some).

But the thing about taking a "lesser deal," is the time value of moving Trouba now. If we get a first for him in a year but a second right now, but by moving him now we can actually give out proper extensions and correctly build a functional team for next season? I'll take right now.

I agree with all of those. But I think if Trouba was making 6M and viewed as a physical stay at home from day one we might still be annoyed by his salary, but he honestly wouldn’t be that bad. Panarin, on the other hand, will always put up the regular season numbers but is simply not a player you win with - irresponsible with his decision making, regardless of how often it goes the other way, not a playoff performer, picky about his linemates, poor chemistry with everyone, coach killer, etc. and he makes 3.65M more than Trouba. I’d kill to have a player who produces 10-20 points less during the regular season but plays with Trouba’s edge at forward. Trouba’s salary is a problem, but Trouba himself is not what’s wrong with the Rangers. We need more “Trouba” in some of our guys, it’s just unfortunate that he’s so badly overpaid.

 

[SRHRangers]

Heard the arguments for every coach with an open mind.

I feel even stronger.now about wanting Sutter to come in and close the Country Club.

5v5 play, conditioning, and accountability.

All things Sutter puts the check mark next to.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

KAM is easily... and I mean EASILY, the 2nd best defenseman on the team. His highs are ridiculous. He struggled down the stretch but he's a big reason why we started winning games in the regular season.

He's 23. He's a stud. He needs to be a Ranger.

Agree. I chalk up the struggles he had this past season to the proverbial sophomore slump. And the reason I say sophomore slump, even though it's really his 3rd NHL season, is because his first NHL season was a wonky "covid" shortened season that messed with a lot of players' development that entered the league around that time. The schedule was odd, and things were odd.

Last year was his first real full season in the NHL. And he was really good. And like a lot of players after a really good first full season, they try to do too much to one-up themselves the following season. I feel like he pressed to do too much. Took himself out of position, over extended himself, wasn't letting the situations come to him and react to them in a natural way, instead forcing situations that weren't there. Pinching when he shouldn't have been for example. Where last year he would do things like that as the in-game situation dictated. I think part of that was his partner also didn't have a great season. He had his own issues he had to work on, such as the added responsibility of being the captain now, and he too was pressing to do too much rather than playing within his own game more naturally.

I believe Miller (and Trouba) can learn from that and come back next season with a great season.

Miller is the most physically gifted defenseman on the roster. More of an athlete than Fox. Better skater. Better shot. More natural raw talent. He won't ever have the "hockey IQ" Fox has, but he's got the natural gifts to be one of the more desired defensemen in the league.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

Heard the arguments for every coach with an open mind.

I feel even stronger.now about wanting Sutter to come in and close the Country Club.

5v5 play, conditioning, and accountability.

All things Sutter puts the check mark next to.

How is he with the youth. He had the "That 70s Line", which at least with the young wingers, sounds an awful lot like the Kid Line here. Didn't he lean heavily on the vets? His version of Panarin (Gaborik) won the Conn Smythe.

I feel like, yes he's more of a hard ass, but will still be more of the same, and still signals win-now at all costs.

Personally I hope they go with a modern analytical thinking, team oriented, coach that understands the importance of developing the youth, demands the effort, holds all players accountable no matter what their status is, and gets them all to buy into being the hardest working team in the league. Maybe impossible to match Rod in Carolina, but that's the aspiration.

 

[mas0764]

I agree with all of those. But I think if Trouba was making 6M and viewed as a physical stay at home from day one we might still be annoyed by his salary, but he honestly wouldn’t be that bad. Panarin, on the other hand, will always put up the regular season numbers but is simply not a player you win with - irresponsible with his decision making, regardless of how often it goes the other way, not a playoff performer, picky about his linemates, poor chemistry with everyone, coach killer, etc. and he makes 3.65M more than Trouba. I’d kill to have a player who produces 10-20 points less during the regular season but plays with Trouba’s edge at forward. Trouba’s salary is a problem, but Trouba himself is not what’s wrong with the Rangers. We need more “Trouba” in some of our guys, it’s just unfortunate that he’s so badly overpaid.

But Trouba's problem is that he's terrible at defense.

 

[duhmetreE]

But Trouba's problem is that he's terrible at defense.

He's not terrible defensively but it's shined upon when his offense fell off the cliff this season and his skating somehow got worse.

He might be the slowest/least agile skater in the league. That's not hyperbole. Would it kill him to work on his agility/first few steps?

 

[mas0764]

It's not even that we have too much tied up in the top4. It's that the top4 is dead weight barring Fox

Problem with this is Drury likes Trouba and if I remember correctly ( pretty sure Edge said something of the likes ) he was the one petitioning for him to be Captain even last season.

We talk about Trouba being moved for fun speculation but if any big contract is moved it's Panarin. I do not think Drury likes his game and even 'leaked' it last playoffs.

Oh yeah, I'm sure the Rangers don't see his on-ice performance vs. his salary as a problem.

It is, though.

It could be argued that Trouba is not even a particular good 2nd pair defender at actual defending. Even if he's a top second pair defender, which I don't agree he's played at that level for quite some time, that's like the 60th best defender in the league? He's paid as the 15th best defender in the league.

It's a huge problem. But yeah I'm sure the Rangers don't see it that way.

He's not terrible defensively

Eh.

And this is after quite the rebound to end the season. Mid season it was way worse.

 

[duhmetreE]

Oh yeah, I'm sure the Rangers don't see his on-ice performance vs. his salary as a problem.

It is, though.

It could be argued that Trouba is not even a particular good 2nd pair defender at actual defending. Even if he's a top second pair defender, which I don't agree he's played at that level for quite some time, that's like the 60th best defender in the league? He's paid as the 15th best defender in the league.

It's a huge problem. But yeah I'm sure the Rangers don't see it that way.



Eh.

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And this is after quite the rebound to end the season. Mid season it was way worse.

Hopefully he takes well to the new coaching staff.

the hope is that this was the outlier. He was better the previous couple seasons, especially offensively. If he looks the same next season, he's gone.

 

[LaffyTaffy13]

Panarin aint getting moved. Hes one of the top 20ish players in the league and has a full NMC. Hes arguably the best ufa signing in franchise history

 

[duhmetreE]

Panarin aint getting moved. Hes one of the top 20ish players in the league and has a full NMC. Hes arguably the best ufa signing in franchise history

not better than Vesey.

 

[mas0764]

Hopefully he takes well to the new coaching staff.

the hope is that this was the outlier. He was better the previous couple seasons, especially offensively. If he looks the same next season, he's gone.

He was actually awful two years ago. Last year was his best year here (our conference finals loss to Tampa year). This year was somewhere in between.

I think Lindgren is the better player and better value.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

not better than Vesey.

Atleast 9 Ranger forwards had a better playoff than Panarin, and outside of Kreider we were offensively offensive.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I can understand guys being pissed at panarins lack of playoff production because he gets paid a ton of money but he was far from being the only guy who sucked. Why isn’t anyone calling for anyone else’s head in this thread? Fox, zibanejad, laf, kakko, trochek etc. they all sucked in the playoffs this year.

You answered your own question.

Panarin aint getting moved. Hes one of the top 20ish players in the league and has a full NMC. Hes arguably the best ufa signing in franchise history

No he isn’t.

Like to all of that. The timing of his signing was so dumb.

 

[duhmetreE]

the optimisit in me, says Panarin takes it serious this offseason. He works hard again, refines his shot and works on his skating/conditioning.

He actually gets chances but his finishing is no where close to what it was/could be. I'd be hounding him non stop if he curls up on the half wall or stops moving his feet. Coaching would be nice.

 

[LaffyTaffy13]

You answered your own question.


No he isn’t.

Like to all of that. The timing of his signing was so dumb.

Name me 20 better forwards than panarin.

Name me the ufa’s we signed that were better than panarin

 

[duhmetreE]

Name me 20 better forwards than panarin.

Name me the ufa’s we signed that were better than panarin

the problem is his playoff disappearing act and his salary.

 

[duhmetreE]

that player is still there.

believe.

 

[LokiDog]

But Trouba's problem is that he's terrible at defense.

He’s not terrible, IMO. He’s a solid middle pairing guy who gets paid wayyyy too much. If he wasn’t so overpaid, he’d be fine. He does take a lot of tough matches, he does rank very high in hits and blocks. He’s a solid physical #4 guy who is paid as a #1 guy. If Trouba made 4.5M and laid hits like he does I would take him as the 2nd pair RHD on almost any team. The problem is very much his cap hit. By no means am I saying he’s great at defense or a stud, but I do believe that if he was making 4.5-5.5M he’d be thought of fairly well league wide as an intimidating physical defender who is prone to mistakes but can play 20 minutes reliably.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

He was actually awful two years ago. Last year was his best year here (our conference finals loss to Tampa year). This year was somewhere in between.

I think Lindgren is the better player and better value.

This is like Staal vs Stralman.

Some, myself included, was pounding our fist at the sky to keep Stralman and either let Staal walk or trade him... Rangers opted to Rongo.

 

[LokiDog]

Name me 20 better forwards than panarin.

Name me the ufa’s we signed that were better than panarin

20 better forwards than Panarin isn’t hard…

McDavid, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Matthews, Barkov, Tkachuk, Kucherov, Pastrnak, Rantanen, Aho, Hintz, Robertson, Connor, Pettersson, Hughes, Marner, Point, Thompson, Stutzle, Kaprizov, Hischier, Crosby, Marchand, Stamkos, Bergeron, Larkin, Keller, Tuch… honestly Zibanejad, the other Tkachuk, Miller, 300 year old Pavelski, etc.

Most of them produce right on par with Panarin, some better, many are younger and almost all of them have a better two way impact on the game.

Bring in defenseman like Makar, Fox, Hedman, Dahlin, Heiskanen, etc. You could make an easy argument that there’s 40 or so players who are more valuable to their team than Panarin. Points are not the end all, and there are enough players producing as much/more or close to what Panarin produces (often on much worse teams) while bringing two way responsibility, leadership, physicality, etc.

We can argue over who does/doesn’t belong on the list (for instance, lots will say no to Hischier, but I’ll take a 24 year old 80 point center nominated for the Selke over a 31 year old 95 point winger who might be the worst defensive impact player on his team in the league) but when you remind yourself Panarin’s cap hit is higher than all but McDavid, it becomes a pretty moot point.

 

[Fitzy]

Panarin aint getting moved. Hes one of the top 20ish players in the league and has a full NMC. Hes arguably the best ufa signing in franchise history

I won't contend that for regular season, but Gaborik gave us more in the playoffs.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

20 better forwards than Panarin isn’t hard…

McDavid, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Matthews, Barkov, Tkachuk, Kucherov, Pastrnak, Rantanen, Aho, Hintz, Robertson, Connor, Pettersson, Hughes, Marner, Point, Thompson, Stutzle, Kaprizov, Hischier, Crosby… honestly Zibanejad, the other Tkachuk, Miller, 300 year old Pavelski, etc.

Most of them produce right on par with Panarin, some better, many are younger and almost all of them have a better two way impact on the game.

We can argue over who does/doesn’t belong on the list (for instance, lots will say no to Hischier, but I’ll take a 24 year old 80 point center nominated for the Selke over a 31 year old 95 point winger who might be the worst defensive impact player on his team in the league) but when you remind yourself Panarin’s cap hit is higher than all but McDavid, it becomes a pretty moot point.

Thanks for doing the work for me.

I’d also throw OV, tuch, Nylander, Marchand and Bergeron in there.

When you bring defensemen into the mix it gets even larger.

Panarin is at best, the 3rd best player on this team.

 

[mas0764]

He’s not terrible, IMO. He’s a solid middle pairing guy who gets paid wayyyy too much. If he wasn’t so overpaid, he’d be fine. He does take a lot of tough matches, he does rank very high in hits and blocks. He’s a solid physical #4 guy who is paid as a #1 guy. If Trouba made 4.5M and laid hits like he does I would take him as the 2nd pair RHD on almost any team. The problem is very much his cap hit. By no means am I saying he’s great at defense or a stud, but I do believe that if he was making 4.5-5.5M he’d be thought of fairly well league wide as an intimidating physical defender who is prone to mistakes but can play 20 minutes reliably.

If he was making half as much it would be far less of a problem, true.

 

[LokiDog]

Thanks for doing the work for me.

I’d also throw OV, tuch, Nylander, Marchand and Bergeron in there.

When you bring defensemen into the mix it gets even larger.

Panarin is at best, the 3rd best player on this team.

That list is definitely not comprehensive. There’s plenty of younger forwards or guys like Lindholm in Calgary that you could argue are a better asset, especially when Lindholm’s been making 4.8M the last few years. I left off guys like Stone and Eichel, Nylander, Stamkos, etc. and didn’t even get into defense where I’m sure I could pick at least 10 I’d value higher.