Roster Building Thread VI (2022-23): Offseason edition

[duhmetreE]

Seems like he understands coaching strategy anecdotally from his stops at Erie in the OHL and Hartford. Id rather have an organization guy who is familiar with the young players and is on the same page as Drury, rather than a retread caveman coach who will do nothing but yell at the players as they tune him out. That might work for a season but we'll be crying for a new coach by New Year's Day 2025

we unfortunately need that caveman yelling to break the country club atmosphere. I don't want any retreads besides Sutter though. He's the only option when it comes to 'vet coaches' IMO. Knoblauch hasn't really developed any of the young players and has opted to play career AAAA players over kids.

I'm all for a Brind'Amour or Maurice... they're just not there though.

I'd be happy with a Leach or Warsofsky paired with a vet assistant like Boudreau

 

[Machinehead]

Fox played 31+ in game 7 vs the Pens last year (this game went into OT, but barely.)

Here is the truth - None of us really know what kind of condition these guys are in. @Machinehead brought up a good point the other day - Our team is perennially at the bottom of man games missed during the RS. That isn't done by accident and would lend it self against the argument that this team is poorly conditioned. The only long term injury that I can remember that a player had to deal with in the last few years was Blais ACL tear, and that was because Subban is a dirty f***.

I feel like this just becomes a crutch anytime a player goes through a rough stretch or has a bad game when the truth is that they just had a bad stretch or a bad game.

McAvoy played like a clown vs Florida. Makar (who plays at altitude so he HAS to be in great physical condition) looked like fried ass for big portions of the Seattle series (especially game 7.) These guys aren't out of shape, they just had a 7 game stretch where they weren't at their best.

Orlov looked worse than all of them in Rd1. He doesn't suck or have shitty conditioning either.

I think we desperately need to improve our 5v5 play to give ourselves the best chance, but this is where you get into the element of randomness.

Sometimes the series you play just isn't a good 7 games, as an individual or as a team, and there's just no real reason for it. It ebbs and flows and you run hot and cold.

You also have to understand that what you remember isn't the whole sample. Fox made a really noticeable bad play but over the course of a 420 minute series, plus overtime, he was our best player 5v5 and on the PP.

 

[Guyute]

I think we desperately need to improve our 5v5 play to give ourselves the best chance, but this is where you get into the element of randomness.

Sometimes the series you play just isn't a good 7 games, as an individual or as a team, and there's just no real reason for it. It ebbs and flows and you run hot and cold.

You also have to understand that what you remember isn't the whole sample. Fox made a really noticeable bad play but over the course of a 420 minute series, plus overtime, he was our best player 5v5 and on the PP.

There's a lot more randomness in hockey than, say, basketball. A lot more randomness in basketball than chess.

Because there's more variance, you can expect more mean reversion. Most series are fairly close to 50/50 since the n is only 7 at most.

 

[McRanger92]

we unfortunately need that caveman yelling to break the country club atmosphere. I don't want any retreads besides Sutter though. He's the only option when it comes to 'vet coaches' IMO. Knoblauch hasn't really developed any of the young players and has opted to play career AAAA players over kids.

I'm all for a Brind'Amour or Maurice... they're just not there though.

I'd be happy with a Leach or Warsofsky paired with a vet assistant like Boudreau

Knoblauch hasnt exactly had star prospects to develop in Hartford because none of our top guys have played there, so i can't hold that against him to much. Small sample you can say that players who did go there were better for it (Lindy, Chytil, Schneider, Cuylle, Jones) though.

You dont break the country club by hiring a coach who will tear them down, because thats not going to take on a team with NMC veterans and a group of Kids who have already been through the ringer with multiple dolt head coaches. You break the country club by hiring a coach that can outlast the parties most responsible. Everyone in the org from the top down needs to get on the same page and while Knoblauch is a hugely un-sexy hire, he'd accomplish that. I'd also be happy with Jay Leach as well, because he fits the mold of a younger guy who can communicate and understands hockey strategy beyond "playing the right way"

 

[Machinehead]

99% of NHL hockey players are in ridiculous shape. Kreider could probably dead lift the sky.

It's to the point where other professional players in lower leagues probably wouldn't be able to do the workouts.

There are exceptions. We had one and we got rid of him because he wouldn't work out (Kravtsov).

 

[Machinehead]

I think the "in-shape" thing stems from "lol Zibanejad is vegan" which really triggered all of the alphas on here.

1) It's weird that it bothers you

2) I've met a lot of the meat-eaters on here and none of you are in the running for Mr. Universe this summer

3) He's not vegan

Here's a picture of him eating a double beef burger at the burger restaurant he owns in Sweden. I've seen the menu. It's got beef all over it. He designed the menu. He loves burgers.

His girlfriend/now wife is vegan. And also happens to be a professional athlete with a 40 time faster than your 20 time.

If I bring up a guy's personal business, I do my research, but that's just me.

 

[MrAlmost]

The Issue I'd have with Jones-Trouba is that neither of them are strong defenders.

Trouba has gotten a reputation as being this strong defender but thats never been the case. Hes our weakest pure defender in the top 4.

I'm of the opinion that they should just stick Jones-Schneider together and let them try to figure it out.

I would argue that Trouba's defensive ability has been undersold while Jones' defensive deficiencies have been oversold. I think they compliment style better than Jones-Schneider and Trouba proved to be a good crutch for another recent young defensemen in Miller. I think the Rangers should play into that. Also, again the improvement to the system, if they hire a coach that isn't just a stupid yeller mr.accountable bullshit, will yield the greatest defensive improvement. As a team.

There is zero evidence that back this up

To back what up exactly? Miller isn't a good puck mover or that the team with a better breakout system utilizing strong-side puck support in numbers with speed wont yield better breakout results as a whole?

I think we saw it a bit last year in the second half of the year as the team started adding faster players. We got a much more cohesive breakout and the team went from being hemmed in their zone constantly to suddenly being "fast-break" team. And that was with all the same D men except Braun, who I doubt had that much impact. I think the only problem with Gallant is that he lets the players make to many of the calls in regards to the team. Can't let them dictate who they play with, who plays where, how the PP works, etc.

On a side note, and not saying you at all or anyone specifically, but there is always a lot of mention about "systems". "The system is no good." "We don't play the right system." "We never adjust our system." Yet, no one ever says what the system is. No one can ever actually explain what we are doing, and I understand there will be jokes like neither did Gallant, nor do they realize that what they are saying by "system" is more akin to maybe, "game-plan", or "strategy"? Every team runs multiple "systems" in all three zones with and without the puck. Things are a lot more complicated than you might think. I am probably rambling, but what people like in teams like Carolina and Seattle was the cohesiveness of the "systems" they implement to serve one purpose, or "strategy". Be aggressive on the puck, get it back as fast as possible and move up the ice as a unit. And I agree. That's how hockey should be played, and that how the good teams are doing it.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

we unfortunately need that caveman yelling to break the country club atmosphere. I don't want any retreads besides Sutter though. He's the only option when it comes to 'vet coaches' IMO. Knoblauch hasn't really developed any of the young players and has opted to play career AAAA players over kids.

I'm all for a Brind'Amour or Maurice... they're just not there though.

I'd be happy with a Leach or Warsofsky paired with a vet assistant like Boudreau

You don't need to be an asshole to do that.

If you scratch a star player for being bad it gets the point across just the same.

 

[duhmetreE]

Fox played 31+ in game 7 vs the Pens last year (this game went into OT, but barely.)

Here is the truth - None of us really know what kind of condition these guys are in. @Machinehead brought up a good point the other day - Our team is perennially at the bottom of man games missed during the RS. That isn't done by accident and would lend it self against the argument that this team is poorly conditioned. The only long term injury that I can remember that a player had to deal with in the last few years was Blais ACL tear, and that was because Subban is a dirty f***.

I feel like this just becomes a crutch anytime a player goes through a rough stretch or has a bad game when the truth is that they just had a bad stretch or a bad game.

McAvoy played like a clown vs Florida. Makar (who plays at altitude so he HAS to be in great physical condition) looked like fried ass for big portions of the Seattle series (especially game 7.) These guys aren't out of shape, they just had a 7 game stretch where they weren't at their best.

Orlov looked worse than all of them in Rd1. He doesn't suck or have shitty conditioning either.

I get it. I'm an equal opportunist and objective. His skating stride isn't pretty to begin with and imo it has a certain look when he's 'off/tired'. Are you arguing that he's indeed a workhorse and can take on those absurd loads? I don't agree and I feel that's evident.

Our best players need to be the best players when it matters. Fox played his worst game as a New York Ranger in game 7 vs NJD. It's a valid criticism. Pointing out he needs to be better doesn't mean he sucks or that I hate him.

I'm not talking about other teams. Other teams players being bad doesn't excuse our players being bad. It's not an attack it's just the obvious. Our top paid players need to play like top players. It's been an issue here for a decade+.... minus goaltending.

 

[I Eat Crow]

Fox played 31+ in game 7 vs the Pens last year (this game went into OT, but barely.)

Here is the truth - None of us really know what kind of condition these guys are in. @Machinehead brought up a good point the other day - Our team is perennially at the bottom of man games missed during the RS. That isn't done by accident and would lend it self against the argument that this team is poorly conditioned. The only long term injury that I can remember that a player had to deal with in the last few years was Blais ACL tear, and that was because Subban is a dirty f***.

I feel like this just becomes a crutch anytime a player goes through a rough stretch or has a bad game when the truth is that they just had a bad stretch or a bad game.

McAvoy played like a clown vs Florida. Makar (who plays at altitude so he HAS to be in great physical condition) looked like fried ass for big portions of the Seattle series (especially game 7.) These guys aren't out of shape, they just had a 7 game stretch where they weren't at their best.

Orlov looked worse than all of them in Rd1. He doesn't suck or have shitty conditioning either.

Teams are figuring out ways to counter good back end puck movers like Fox, Makar, and McAvoy. You full court press them with two forecheckers and a 3rd on the weak side wall to seal off their outlet passes.

This is very easy to counter. Close puck support from the forwards on the near side blueline with little chips up the boards. 3 v 2's the other way galore.

Look at the replay of the Fox cough up in Game 7. Kreider was the nearest skater 20 feet away in the middle of the ice. Palat was hounding the puck carrier while two other Devils took away the middle of the ice and far side passes. Fox couldn't go up the boards because the forward was cheating and was at the red line waiting for it. Fox would've coughed it up anyway if he tried that from the goal line. He tried to carry it up the ice and lost it anyway because he had no support and Kreider standing in the middle of the ice doing nothing but taking away the passing lane up broadway. That near side forward needs to be at the blue line at the furthest, if not closer to offer support on the breakout. Move up the ice as a 5 man unit.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I get it. I'm an equal opportunist and objective. His skating stride isn't pretty to begin with and imo it has a certain look when he's 'off/tired'. Are you arguing that he's indeed a workhorse and can take on those absurd loads? I don't agree and I feel that's evident.

Our best players need to be the best players when it matters. Fox played his worst game as a New York Ranger in game 7 vs NJD. It's a valid criticism. Pointing out he needs to be better doesn't mean he sucks or that I hate him.

I'm not talking about other teams. Other teams players being bad doesn't excuse our players being bad. It's not an attack it's just the obvious. Our top paid players need to play like top players. It's been an issue here for a decade+.... minus goaltending.

Pointing out that he had a bad game (or series, the latter of which I don't agree with) is fine. Saying that its tied to his fitness is what I don't agree with. Theres really no way that any of us know that.

He handled pretty heavy minutes during their run last year (He had the 2nd highest ATOI of all players who made it beyond round 1.)

So yeah, I'm saying he can because he's done it before. For reference, Fox averaged 26:48 ATOI during last years playoffs. Hedman, who is the definition of a workhorse, was at 24:40. Jaccob Slavin? 23. Makar, who led the way, was at 27:04. Thats basically half a shift more a game on average than Fox and this only happened because Girard went down and he had to eat more PP time.

And its not like he wore down along the way. He nearly set every single franchise playoff offensive record for a D last season. Had they moved on, he very well may have.

 

[Savant]

I would argue that Trouba's defensive ability has been undersold while Jones' defensive deficiencies have been oversold. I think they compliment style better than Jones-Schneider and Trouba proved to be a good crutch for another recent young defensemen in Miller. I think the Rangers should play into that. Also, again the improvement to the system, if they hire a coach that isn't just a stupid yeller mr.accountable bullshit, will yield the greatest defensive improvement. As a team.


To back what up exactly? Miller isn't a good puck mover or that the team with a better breakout system utilizing strong-side puck support in numbers with speed wont yield better breakout results as a whole?

I think we saw it a bit last year in the second half of the year as the team started adding faster players. We got a much more cohesive breakout and the team went from being hemmed in their zone constantly to suddenly being "fast-break" team. And that was with all the same D men except Braun, who I doubt had that much impact. I think the only problem with Gallant is that he lets the players make to many of the calls in regards to the team. Can't let them dictate who they play with, who plays where, how the PP works, etc.

On a side note, and not saying you at all or anyone specifically, but there is always a lot of mention about "systems". "The system is no good." "We don't play the right system." "We never adjust our system." Yet, no one ever says what the system is. No one can ever actually explain what we are doing, and I understand there will be jokes like neither did Gallant, nor do they realize that what they are saying by "system" is more akin to maybe, "game-plan", or "strategy"? Every team runs multiple "systems" in all three zones with and without the puck. Things are a lot more complicated than you might think. I am probably rambling, but what people like in teams like Carolina and Seattle was the cohesiveness of the "systems" they implement to serve one purpose, or "strategy". Be aggressive on the puck, get it back as fast as possible and move up the ice as a unit. And I agree. That's how hockey should be played, and that how the good teams are doing it.

So this is a bit of a chicken or egg thing.

Are the players not good at moving the puck because the system sucked (which it did) or Are we not playing the system because the players can’t handle it. I think the latter is just as, if not more likely to be true(r). This team does not pass the eye test either in being able to do that

 

[JimmyG89]

When it came to man games lost, my biggest issue is that it is also possible that our players tend to play through things instead of healing and sitting out.

Kreider clearly had some kind of injury during the season and decided to ride it out instead of sitting a few games. It definitely looked at times like Fox did the same thing.

If you want to power through some bumps and bruises during the playoffs, that's a different thing, but when game 55 of the season rolls around and you're dealing with something, just take a game or two and get right.

They tried to push Lindgren too quick and he missed more time than he probably should have.

 

[MrAlmost]

Teams are figuring out ways to counter good back end puck movers like Fox, Makar, and McAvoy. You full court press them with two forecheckers and a 3rd on the weak side wall to seal off their outlet passes.

This is very easy to counter. Close puck support from the forwards on the near side blueline with little chips up the boards. 3 v 2's the other way galore.

Look at the replay of the Fox cough up in Game 7. Kreider was the nearest skater 20 feet away in the middle of the ice. Palat was hounding the puck carrier while two other Devils took away the middle of the ice and far side passes. Fox couldn't go up the boards because the forward was cheating and was at the red line waiting for it. Fox would've coughed it up anyway if he tried that from the goal line. He tried to carry it up the ice and lost it anyway because he had no support and Kreider standing in the middle of the ice doing nothing but taking away the passing lane up broadway. That near side forward needs to be at the blue line at the furthest, if not closer to offer support on the breakout. Move up the ice as a 5 man unit.

Yeah. That's good.

On a different, but related, note, one of the biggest pet peeves I have about the Rangers the last few years is I feel their wings during a defensive zone reverse are too far away from the damn wall. They get beat to the puck by the attacking defensemen every f***ing time. And beat bad. You should want to get to the puck first or meet the attacking defensemen, like teams do to us. We are constantly no where even close, and we end up spending forever in the defensive zone because of it.

A small reason why I like Motte so much. I get that he is just a 4th liner and I get the replacement level stuff, but he always seems to have pressure on the half way and point in a reverse that helps get the team out of the zone, or at the very least, doesn't allow the attacking defender to just walk into the damn zone.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Yeah. That's good.

On a different, but related, note, one of the biggest pet peeves I have about the Rangers the last few years is I feel their wings during a defensive zone reverse are too far away from the damn wall. They get beat to the puck by the attacking defensemen every f***ing time. And beat bad. You should want to get to the puck first or meet the attacking defensemen, like teams do to us. We are constantly no where even close, and we end up spending forever in the defensive zone because of it.

A small reason why I like Motte so much. I get that he is just a 4th liner and I get the replacement level stuff, but he always seems to have pressure on the half way and point in a reverse that helps get the team out of the zone, or at the very least, doesn't allow the attacking defender to just walk into the damn zone.

Not only that, but they just float over to loose pucks when an opponent is basically going full tilt and then end up getting engaged in a battle that should never happen to begin with (which more often than not, they'll lose) if not being beat to the puck outright.

Panarin is the biggest culprit here.

 

[duhmetreE]

Pointing out that he had a bad game (or series, the latter of which I don't agree with) is fine. Saying that its tied to his fitness is what I don't agree with. Theres really no way that any of us know that.

He handled pretty heavy minutes during their run last year (He had the 2nd highest ATOI of all players who made it beyond round 1.)

So yeah, I'm saying he can because he's done it before. For reference, Fox averaged 26:48 ATOI during last years playoffs. Hedman, who is the definition of a workhorse, was at 24:40. Jaccob Slavin? 23. Makar, who led the way, was at 27:04. Thats basically half a shift more a game on average than Fox and this only happened because Girard went down and he had to eat more PP time.

And its not like he wore down along the way. He nearly set every single franchise playoff offensive record for a D last season. Had they moved on, he very well may have.

or all the games/workload is starting to catch up to him. I don't believe he at his absolute best, physically speaking. He started having mental breakdowns which is the antithesis of his game. IMO fatigue played a role. Maybe he was hurt.

His game is not built on physical talents but it doesn't mean he can't improve in that regard. I don't know what the argument is then? This is peak Fox? and he can't improve physically? Maybe he was hurt or maybe he was tired.... Either way, there's room for improvement physically speaking.

I thought he slowed down. Wasn't the same postASB. He was better last year in the Playoffs. If his play was anywhere close to that in game 3-7, we probably moved on. It's not isolating him, it's throwing him in with all our top paid guys ( Panarin, Fox, Zibs and Trouba ) . All should bear some of that burden. They were no where near good enough.

 

[TheGortonConspiracy]

It’s not even about a fixed amount like 10mm. It’s more like, what percent of the salary cap do your top 4 players make? And we fail that test

 

[EdJovanovski]

It’s not even about a fixed amount like 10mm. It’s more like, what percent of the salary cap do your top 4 players make? And we fail that test

This years final 4 are probably the most depth based and least top heavy/star studded final 4 in decades though, not sure if you’d see the same looking back at previous years

 

[McRanger92]

This years final 4 are probably the most depth based and least top heavy/star studded final 4 in decades though, not sure if you’d see the same looking back at previous years

Yeah this is more the exception not the rule and more evidence that the playoffs are extremely random and who is hottest at the right time.

Carolina for example, this is objectively the worst team on paper theyve had in a few years (no Svech or Teravainen), but they've had an easier road based on opponents. Just how it goes sometimes.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

It’s not even about a fixed amount like 10mm. It’s more like, what percent of the salary cap do your top 4 players make? And we fail that test

It is interesting that no one has signed a double digit hit in the flat cap era.

Edit - that has kicked in, I know Pasta just signed one

 

[Raspewtin]

Fox was noticeably worse without him. Maybe leaving is a good idea.

he performed worse because he went from a solid top 4 D to a #6 with rotten eggs for brains, it's not hard to figure out.

 

[mas0764]

Yeah this is more the exception not the rule and more evidence that the playoffs are extremely random and who is hottest at the right time.

Carolina for example, this is objectively the worst team on paper theyve had in a few years (no Svech or Teravainen), but they've had an easier road based on opponents. Just how it goes sometimes.

While I'm quick to shit on what we've done.... I mean, if we win that Game 7 vs NJ we are probably not just still playing but possibly the favorite right now. I heard we are like 11-1-1 this season versus the remaining teams?

Gah.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

It’s not even about a fixed amount like 10mm. It’s more like, what percent of the salary cap do your top 4 players make? And we fail that test

I'm going to find a way to send a penny to Eichel and Barkov just to make this tweet irrelevant.

But to your second point, thought it was interesting and decided to give this a look.

Vegas:

Eichel - 10m
Stone - 9.5
Pietriangelo - 8.85
Karlsson - 5.9

Total: 34.25

Dallas:

Seguin - 9.85
Benn - 9.5
Heiskanen - 8.45
Robertson - 7.75

Total: 35.55

Florida

Barkov - 10
Tkachuk - 9.5
Ekblad - 7.5
Reinhart - 6.5

Total: 33.5

(The above are 3 of the teams that play in states with no income tax and thus, are able to pay their players less. If there is a true competitive imbalance in this league, its this. How they find a way to even shit out? f*** if I know, but hire someone who is good with numbers to figure it out.)

Carolina

Aho - 8.4625
Svechnikov - 7.75
Pacioretty - 7
Staal - 6

Total: 29.2125

Whats crazy is that they've done this with out their 2nd and 3rd highest players.

Rangers

Poison Pill Mcf***face - 11.643
Fox - 9.5
Zibanejad - 8.5
Trouba - 8

Total: 37.643!

With the Tax shit, you could probably shave off 4-6 million from this total which would be in line with those teams but regardless, MOST of those guys have either shown up or have been okay (Barkov really being the lone exception. He's been pretty bad.)


We need to boot PPMFF ASAP and Trouba as soon as that MNC turns into a NTC.

 

[mas0764]

I'm going to find a way to send a penny to Eichel and Barkov just to make this tweet irrelevant.

But to your second point, thought it was interesting and decided to give this a look.

Vegas:

Eichel - 10m
Stone - 9.5
Pietriangelo - 8.85
Karlsson - 5.9

Total: 34.25

Dallas:

Seguin - 9.85
Benn - 9.5
Heiskanen - 8.45
Robertson - 7.75

Total: 35.55

Florida

Barkov - 10
Tkachuk - 9.5
Ekblad - 7.5
Reinhart - 6.5

Total: 33.5

(The above are 3 of the teams that play in states with no income tax and thus, are able to pay their players less. If there is a true competitive imbalance in this league, its this. How they find a way to even shit out? f*** if I know, but hire someone who is good with numbers to figure it out.)

Carolina

Aho - 8.4625
Svechnikov - 7.75
Pacioretty - 7
Staal - 6

Total: 29.2125

Whats crazy is that they've done this with out their 2nd and 3rd highest players.

Rangers

Poison Pill Mcf***face - 11.643
Fox - 9.5
Zibanejad - 8.5
Trouba - 8

Total: 37.643!

With the Tax shit, you could probably shave off 4-6 million from this total which would be in line with those teams but regardless, MOST of those guys have either shown up or have been okay (Barkov really being the lone exception. He's been pretty bad.)


We need to boot PPMFF ASAP and Trouba as soon as that MNC turns into a NTC.

We can boot Trouba now if we pressure him.

Hey Jake, pick where you want to go now, or you could get the worst of the 15 teams you can't cover with your NTC in a year.

It CAN happen. We just won't.

Also, damn. Florida, Dallas, and Vegas are all no-income tax states? Hmmm. And Carolina isn't exactly a pricey region either (though it's climbing quickly).

Might be something to that.

 

[duhmetreE]

It’s not even about a fixed amount like 10mm. It’s more like, what percent of the salary cap do your top 4 players make? And we fail that test

*laughs in flat cap*