Roster Building Thread VI (2022-23): Offseason edition

[duhmetreE]

Panarin is undoubtedly a productive regular season player. The problem is the team has been paying him as the 2nd best player in the NHL for the last 4 years and he's not that guy.

But good news! Now they're only playing him to be the 3rd best player in the league. So that should take some pressure off of him.

If he produced like McDavid or MacKinnon in the playoffs we would be OK.

 

[bhamill]

Hes easily a top 10 winger in hockey. You guys have just gone full out nuts because he didnt have a good playoffs and is frustrating to watch when he freelances in a team without a system. Youll see this year.

Who said he wasnt a top 10 winger? Are all the top 10 wingers paid 11.5 mil? Hahahaha.
If you think he's performing to his contract, 2nd bst in the NHL after McJesus, then it is YOU who has gone full on nuts. NOT EVEN CLOSE. He's been a bad value for years now. Will that continue? I sure HOPE not, but it is what it is.

No, but if, in theory, 90% of them were on the power play, you wouldn't want to touch his PP minutes while making his ES minutes fair game.



He was worth the contract once upon a time. The first 2-3 years he was elite. He was in the conversation for MVP. It's just that it's a fact that most contracts age very poorly and no one can be expected to remain at that level for 7 years, unless you are like, Crosby, Ovechkin, or McDavid.

Yes. He was brilliant early on in the contract. He is NOT worth it now. At 11.5 million every year, yes I expect the player to be in the Hart conversation every year. Or close to it. He hasn't been close.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

He has 46 points in 57 career playoff games. He wasnt great past 2 playoffs by any stretch. But you guys are insane acting like hes some bum. Best ufa signing of an original 6 franchise in the history of the franchise

Ok since you completely avoided the question, I'm just going to go off the list you posted.

Playoff numbers the last FIVE seasons

Marner: 34 pts in 37 games (.92 ppg)
Pastrnak: 55 pts in 59 games (.93 ppg)
Kane: 15 points in 16 games (.94 ppg)
Marchand: 69 points in 62 games (1.11 ppg)

Panarin: 31 points in 41 games (.75 ppg)

If you want to do just the last 4 seasons (Panarins time as a Ranger which would cut out the one run he had with CBJ where he was actually good) this looks even worse for him (.66)

If he produced like McDavid or MacKinnon in the playoffs we would be OK.

If he produced like either of them in the playoffs they would be more than OK, they would have won the cup in 2022.

 

[GAGLine]

Hes easily a top 10 winger in hockey. You guys have just gone full out nuts because he didnt have a good playoffs and is frustrating to watch when he freelances in a team without a system. Youll see this year.

Try looking at more than just total points. Hockey is more nuanced than that.

He hasn't lived up to his contract the last 2 years, playoffs or regular season. His 5 v 5 play has dropped dramatically. He doesn't backcheck or go to the hard areas, and he turns the puck over way too much.

These are his points per 60 numbers at 5 on 5 since he's been a Ranger:

2019-20: 3.28
2020-21: 3.06
2021-22: 2.52
2022-23: 2.45

These are his regular season numbers. I don't know how anyone can look at that and argue that he's hasn't declined.

Maybe you're right that he will return to form with a new coach. He had better, or this team isn't winning anything.

 

[duhmetreE]

Try looking at more than just total points. Hockey is more nuanced than that.

He hasn't lived up to his contract the last 2 years, playoffs or regular season. His 5 v 5 play has dropped dramatically. He doesn't backcheck or go to the hard areas, and he turns the puck over way too much.

These are his points per 60 numbers at 5 on 5 since he's been a Ranger:

2019-20: 3.28
2020-21: 3.06
2021-22: 2.52
2022-23: 2.45

These are his regular season numbers. I don't know how anyone can look at that and argue that he's hasn't declined.

Maybe you're right that he will return to form with a new coach. He had better, or this team isn't winning anything.

@EdJovanovski was right. Quinn was better than Gallant.

Lavi is like Quinn, in that they demand hard work, but he's also a good coach. Panarin 3.5 pts/60 5v5. It's a lock.

 

[mas0764]

@EdJovanovski was right. Quinn was better than Gallant.

Lavi is like Quinn, in that they demand hard work, but he's also a good coach. Panarin 3.5 pts/60 5v5. It's a lock.

Kakko and Laf getting to 2.0 pts/60 would be nice too.

 

[Synergy27]

I understand the inclination to defend Panarin. His regular seasons here have been good and he’s fun to watch when he is on. His first couple of seasons here were ridiculously good, but they did (surprisingly?) also coincide with the team not even making the playoffs.

That said, I’m not sure those defending him realize just how bad he has been in the playoffs. It’s not just the lack of scoring. He has been amongst the worst liabilities in the league at 5 on 5 in the playoffs. You simplify can’t ignore this when he has the contract he has, and I’ll believe the system is the reason when I see him perform significantly better under this new staff.

Look at this chart. I understand xGF isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but Jesus f***ing Christ:

The ice time filter here was 36 minutes. There were one or two guys who only played a couple of minutes that would have been in this list as well. All of the stars from that tweet above? Nowhere close, of course.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Heres a better exercise.

Here is a list of the forwards with cap hits of 10 or more per a year and their playoff numbers the last 5 years (Using new extensions for MacK and Pasta) in order of their cap hits

MacKinnon - 74 in 64 (1.15 PPG)
McDavid - 66 in 36 (1.81 PPG. Side note: it is criminal he has never made it to the finals.)
Panarin - 31 in 41 (.75 PPG)
Matthews - 37 in 38 (1 PPG)
Pastrnak - 55 in 59 (.93 PPG)
Tavares - 20 in 30 (.66 PPG)
Marner - 34 in 37 (.92 ppg)
Huberdeau - 15 in 20 (.75 ppg)
Barkov - 34 in 41 (.83 ppg)
Eichel - 26 in 22 (1.18 ppg, literally just this year.)
Kopitar - 11 in 13 (.85 ppg)


Of all the forwards making 10 mill or more, he is tied for the second lowest PPG in the playoffs over the last 5 years. Again, if you want to limit this to the last 4 (his time as a Ranger) he goes from tied for the 2nd lowest to tied for the lowest outright. He has the 3rd highest cap hit on the list.

Looking forward to all the excuse making for this player continue into the season by the same 5 people when the coaching change doesn't result in a massive turnaround in performance. Hes been a colossal disappointment in crunch time, that can't really be argued.

If theres one takeaway from this list, its that the "ONCE IN A LIFETIME NEVER AVAILABLE IN FREE AGENCY ELITE PLAYERS" are terrible investments.
You're better off trading for elite players earlier in their career if they're available, even if they cost assets.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I understand the inclination to defend Panarin. His regular seasons here have been good and he’s fun to watch when he is on. His first couple of seasons here were ridiculously good, but they did (surprisingly?) also coincide with the team not even making the playoffs.

That said, I’m not sure those defending him realize just how bad he has been in the playoffs. It’s not just the lack of scoring. He has been amongst the worst liabilities in the league at 5 on 5 in the playoffs. You simplify can’t ignore this when he has the contract he has, and I’ll believe the system is the reason when I see him perform significantly better under this new staff.

Look at this chart. I understand xGF isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but Jesus f***ing Christ:

View attachment 729677

The ice time filter here was 36 minutes. There were one or two guys who only played a couple of minutes that would have been in this list as well. All of the stars from that tweet above? Nowhere close, of course.

He could win the Hart next year and it wouldn't matter if the above continues.

 

[Machinehead]

I understand the inclination to defend Panarin. His regular seasons here have been good and he’s fun to watch when he is on. His first couple of seasons here were ridiculously good, but they did (surprisingly?) also coincide with the team not even making the playoffs.

That said, I’m not sure those defending him realize just how bad he has been in the playoffs. It’s not just the lack of scoring. He has been amongst the worst liabilities in the league at 5 on 5 in the playoffs. You simplify can’t ignore this when he has the contract he has, and I’ll believe the system is the reason when I see him perform significantly better under this new staff.

Look at this chart. I understand xGF isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but Jesus f***ing Christ:

View attachment 729677

The ice time filter here was 36 minutes. There were one or two guys who only played a couple of minutes that would have been in this list as well. All of the stars from that tweet above? Nowhere close, of course.

Playoff performer Barclay Goodrow.

 

[Synergy27]

Playoff performer Barclay Goodrow.

So, so bad as well. But still better than Bread and I assume he was playing against other team’s top lines.

 

[Machinehead]

The thought of this team winning the Cup in 2022 gives me a rash. They weren't good during that run.

Panarin deserves a lot of the blame but I also believe that nobody is really going to perform well when the team is getting trounced.

The series against Tampa could have been best of 31; we weren't scoring more than 1 goal again.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

The thought of this team winning the Cup in 2022 gives me a rash. They weren't good during that run.

Panarin deserves a lot of the blame but I also believe that nobody is really going to perform well when the team is getting trounced.

The series against Tampa could have been best of 31; we weren't scoring more than 1 goal again.

They weren't but everyone in their top 9 basically produced to an acceptable level given their roles (or above) aside from one guy.

An on his game Panarin would have been enough to get by Tampa and they would have lit up which ever clown Colorado wanted to play in net.

 

[GAGLine]

If theres one takeaway from this list, its that the "ONCE IN A LIFETIME NEVER AVAILABLE IN FREE AGENCY ELITE PLAYERS" are terrible investments.
You're better off trading for elite players earlier in their career if they're available, even if they cost assets.

It's funny. I remember all the people who preached that players like this never become available, so we had to take the chance while it was there. Since then, Eichel, Gaudreau, Tkachuk and Huberdeau have all been moved. Guys like Marner, Matthews, McDavid and Draisaitl could change teams over the next 3 years.

As an organization, the Rangers have always lacked patience. Even when they sent a letter to the fans announcing the rebuild, they didn't have the patience to stick with it, instead adding big money players through free agency and trade.

 

[Machinehead]

They weren't but everyone in their top 9 basically produced to an acceptable level given their roles (or above) aside from one guy.

An on his game Panarin would have been enough to get by Tampa and they would have lit up which ever clown Colorado wanted to play in net.

I'm going to start drinking every time you guys bring up goaltending.

When I die of alcohol poisoning, you'll feel guilty and finally realize goaltending literally doesn't matter.

 

[Machinehead]

I'm gonna spend another whole ass season hearing about our advantage in goal before God damn Akira Georgiev puts up a .999 and we lose.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

lol @ Akira Georgiev.

Lets not act like Schmid played well against the Rangers though. They didn't test him at all.

He got his ass handed to him by Carolina which is more or less what any team that is any good should have done. He's not an NHL level goalie.

I'm going to start drinking every time you guys bring up goaltending.

When I die of alcohol poisoning, you'll feel guilty and finally realize goaltending literally doesn't matter.

I'll cut out Jovo's liver and shove it into your body before I allow that to happen.


Regardless, both of their goalies and their PK were pretty ass for them during their cup run despite them winning. Can't convince me that the Rangers couldn't have taken advantage there especially if Panarin wasn't in Fartemi mode.

 

[bhamill]

I'm gonna spend another whole ass season hearing about our advantage in goal before God damn Akira Georgiev puts up a .999 and we lose.

You play the odds: who is more likely to go on a hot streak in the playoffs? Georgiev or Shestyrkin? Goaltending absolutely DOES matter, it's just a cost/return proposition. If your goaltender shits the bed, I don't care how good you are, you aren't winning. However if a goaltender can steal you a enough wins to get through a few series, you don't have to be the absolute best.

 

[Leonardo87]

I'm going to start drinking every time you guys bring up goaltending.

When I die of alcohol poisoning, you'll feel guilty and finally realize goaltending literally doesn't matter.

I'll cut out Jovo's liver and shove it into your body before I allow that to happen.

It's gotten a little dark in here, lol.

 

[mas0764]

You play the odds: who is more likely to go on a hot streak in the playoffs? Georgiev or Shestyrkin? Goaltending absolutely DOES matter, it's just a cost/return proposition. If your goaltender shits the bed, I don't care how good you are, you aren't winning. However if a goaltender can steal you a enough wins to get through a few series, you don't have to be the absolute best.

If you play the odds then you don't commit top dollars to a goalie and instead go pay a center.

 

[Savant]

Heres a better exercise.

Here is a list of the forwards with cap hits of 10 or more per a year and their playoff numbers the last 5 years (Using new extensions for MacK and Pasta) in order of their cap hits

MacKinnon - 74 in 64 (1.15 PPG)
McDavid - 66 in 36 (1.81 PPG. Side note: it is criminal he has never made it to the finals.)
Panarin - 31 in 41 (.75 PPG)
Matthews - 37 in 38 (1 PPG)
Pastrnak - 55 in 59 (.93 PPG)
Tavares - 20 in 30 (.66 PPG)
Marner - 34 in 37 (.92 ppg)
Huberdeau - 15 in 20 (.75 ppg)
Barkov - 34 in 41 (.83 ppg)
Eichel - 26 in 22 (1.18 ppg, literally just this year.)
Kopitar - 11 in 13 (.85 ppg)


Of all the forwards making 10 mill or more, he is tied for the second lowest PPG in the playoffs over the last 5 years. Again, if you want to limit this to the last 4 (his time as a Ranger) he goes from tied for the 2nd lowest to tied for the lowest outright. He has the 3rd highest cap hit on the list.

Looking forward to all the excuse making for this player continue into the season by the same 5 people when the coaching change doesn't result in a massive turnaround in performance. Hes been a colossal disappointment in crunch time, that can't really be argued.

If theres one takeaway from this list, its that the "ONCE IN A LIFETIME NEVER AVAILABLE IN FREE AGENCY ELITE PLAYERS" are terrible investments.
You're better off trading for elite players earlier in their career if they're available, even if they cost assets.

Besides Panarin, only Tavares and Eichel don’t have 100% of those points with the team that drafted them. if you want one of those guys they cost in free agency. Period

 

[haohmaru]

If you play the odds then you don't commit top dollars to a goalie and instead go pay a center.

Problem with that is top centers rarely hit UFA status when near or in their primes.

 

[Machinehead]

You play the odds: who is more likely to go on a hot streak in the playoffs? Georgiev or Shestyrkin? Goaltending absolutely DOES matter, it's just a cost/return proposition. If your goaltender shits the bed, I don't care how good you are, you aren't winning. However if a goaltender can steal you a enough wins to get through a few series, you don't have to be the absolute best.

Me waiting for Lundqvist/Shesterkin to "go on a hot streak."

It's the same thing with Panarin. An individual getting hot is not carrying a sub-par team all the way.

 

[mas0764]

Problem with that is top centers rarely hit UFA status when near or in their primes.

You have to find the value by identifying a younger guy, projecting, and being right. Like we were with Zibanejad.

Besides Panarin, only Tavares and Eichel don’t have 100% of those points with the team that drafted them.

Conclusion:

We should stop trading away draft picks and instead start acquiring more of them.

 

[haohmaru]

You have to find the value by identifying a younger guy, projecting, and being right. Like we were with Zibanejad.



Conclusion:

We should stop trading away draft picks and instead start acquiring more of them.

Maybe we should start drafting a few centers with those early picks, too.