Roster Building Thread VI (2022-23): Offseason edition

[bhamill]

I heat what you're saying, but I do think it's a large presumption to say that Trouba, Panarin, Kreider, et al, won't decline in the next two years. Panarin has already started to decline, IMO. It remains to be seen if he falls off a cliff or the decline plateaus a bit with a new coach, we'll see.

Trouba has the potential to be a boat anchor in two years' time. Currently overpaid but plenty of margin for error to decline further. Kreider is the only one of the list that could potentially decline and still be worth his contract. He's a Ranger until he doesn't want to be.

The second part also presumes that the Rangers will get useful NHL players out of Othmann, Sykora, Berard, Perreault, etc. It's more likely than not but it's not forgone.

Perhaps aggressive retool is the better description for what can go down in the next 2 or 3 years.

Yeah. Nothing is carved in stone, but I think Trouba should be better the next two seasons than last season where he was injured and never sat. And while he is overpaid, starting NEXT season it wont hurt as much. Panarin I’ll give this season to see if he has rededicated himself. I really believe it’s been mental for him lately more than a physical decline. Kreider I agree, his EV role can change but he’ll still be hell for other teams on pp1 and contract will not look bad by 24-25.

I like what I see from Drury’s picks so far. Solid character guys, IMO, and Perrault I really believe will be the steal of his draft. I could see all the guys you mentioned being NHLers, and BMB as well. And I think Edstrom and Robertson will be the homegrown version of good 4th liners and big third pair guys we are always trying to add at the TDL.

 

[lakeshirts37]

Went from middle of the pack to one of the older teams in the league.

eh these stats are dumb

 

[bernmeister]

If Panarin craps the bed again he's gone. Even at 50%. No way this organization goes full rebuild when they are a shoe in for the playoffs.

Eff that.
Why capitulate and give him the run of things.?
He works for us -- indirectly, but for us.
He is accountable to us.
He will not wait til last second to waive, but will agree to go b'c he's not getting reupped.
It is in his best interest to accept a deal now.
My best guess is ANA, w/Strome, it is in their best interest also if we pay for them to take most of his cap.

But we need to make this guy understand he is not in charge, not dictating how this club is run

He deserves 3rd line w/Tro and if he doesn't like it, eff him. hopefully it helps him waive.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

If Panarin craps the bed again he's gone. Even at 50%. No way this organization goes full rebuild when they are a shoe in for the playoffs.

That should have been done already after his second no show this year.

 

[IDvsEGO]

eh these stats are dumb

We also just signed a bunch of barely gonna see ice time 35+ players, and wheeler and quick.

If they go back and look at ice time by age, we’ll probably end up on the younger end.

 

[kinghock]

@kinghock I enjoy your posts too.
There is no prob, and it indeed should be encouraged, that anyone with a dif of op should always feel welcomed to speak out; that is how we all benefit from a competition of ideas.
Of course, each of us on whatev dif points of view there are then need to defend them, with substance, against charges -- which have been invited, but which also should have substantiation.

It is a fair ? as to whether or not Shesty to LA, which would be expensive, is worthwhile. The premise there is Talbot is still a quality G, and can get hot. But even allowing that, he obv is not gonna flat out STEAL games for you. If all the skaters have an off nite and the likes of McD + Drai constantly pummel your netminder, CONSTANTLY, both Talbot and Shesty may hold up, but we can reasonably project Shesty to hold up longer. And that is a valid pt.

Now, you may say I don't care, what bern is saying there is a real and legit risk, but I am willing to gamble my team will not only compete but win the event with a better, more successful effort. And you may be right. Or wrong. Whether or not, and to what extent, McDavid and/or Draisatil can almost will a couple of tallies in a playoff game where a single goal may be critical is not certain either way.
But it is fair to ask if King fans want to go all in and reduce that risk.
It is also fair to say that, bigger picture, it is too much cost.

In a similar but different prop made July 4 which was more generous to LA, which had some core, but with Rs retaining, @kilowatt said:
"Byfield and Clarke for Shesterkin with retention? Okay. Sold."

So again, not to misrepresent these are 2 dif props and @kilowatt liking that one does not mean he does/does not think this one is too much, it still confirms that there is some interest in upgrading further, including in net, possibly including paying a dramatic price for a dramatic add.

There is no monolith and solitary consensus.

And in conclusion, not looking to shove Shesty down anyone's throat.
Want to sell high for foundation level youth to correct mistakes by recent/current R mgmt.

LA is a fit but others also fit, so .... competition of ideas.


Disagree, but I concede your point it MAY be the case.
Matter of op.
Clearly, such a deal helps them signif.
Still no guarantee, but it is significant.
They COULD win w'o him, MAYBE, but they could also lose.

IMO ony ? is what is the top dollar price Shesty fetches in such currency [otherwise don't trade him], and which team offers the best bid?

Berne, @kilowatt is on my ignore list for the last year.

I believe his ideas for Kings is so impatient and not strategical that does not need to be taken seriously.

This is my opinion only...

 

[JimmyG89]

Can Trocheck not take the matchup center role?

He 100% can, but he was basically tied down to Panarin last season. Panarin would have to be with Zibanejad or Chytil so Trocheck can be more of a shutdown type player.

The question becomes what line does Panarin fit with? Panarin/Zibanejad has not been a great fit, so that would mean Chytil. I think this was one of the possibilities we saw when Panarin signed that maybe Chytil can fill a role similar to what PLD did with him in Columbus. If you want a shutdown line with Trocheck, this is probably the way to go:

Lafreniere-Zibanejad-Kakko
Panarin-Chytil-Vesey
Kreider-Trocheck-Wheeler

Maybe you can swap Vesey and Wheeler at times, late in games when you really need the offense, but someone needs to be the defensive conscience of the line. I think that is the best course of action to begin with. Laf/Kakko get to play with Mika. Sink or swim time. I'm putting them on the same PP unit too.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

Getting more out of Panarin isn't bringing a 40% xGF team to the Stanley Cup. He's already one of our better 5v5 players. Zibanejad absolutely is what he is and always has been. Kreider had like 45 goals in 7 games against NJ and we still lost. Which one are we getting significantly more out of?

The team sucks 5v5 because their forward corps sucks. Too many replacement-level spare parts playing too many minutes (and let's be real, that includes Kane since like 2018).

The team has like 50 cents in cap space and they need two very good forwards that they don't have.

The only guys in the age range to profoundly improve are Lafreniere and Kakko.

If they met their draft hype, you can't tell me this team doesn't win a Cup in the past two years, even with Panarin as he is.

It's on them.

$11.6M aav, 90 point Panarin has 1 point in 7 games against NJ but its on Laffy and Kakko? Thats nonsense. Your best players have to be your best players to win a Stanley Cup. The prior run panarin put up some points but he was a turnover machine. He's reason #1 for this team coming up short in the post season.

 

[Barnaby]

eh these stats are dumb

It’s less about average age and more about the age of your best players. Blake Wheeler is a good signing. You don’t mind if he brings up your average age. That’s not to say their best forwards aren’t starting to get up there. It’s probably fair to say we’ve already seen the best of Zib, Panarin, and Kreider.

 

[RangersFan1994]

 

[Barnaby]

This team isn't doing crap unless it can figure out how to draft in the top 10.

Every team seems to have one or two core guys that were drafted high and produce as such.

Except the Rangers.

I was so excited with so many top draft picks, figuring at least 1 of:

2017 #7
2018 #9
2019 #2
2020 #1

Would be a franchise player.

Sigh...

Pretty much this. It’s hard to do worse than they did with so many premium picks. It’s really unacceptable. They didn’t rebuild for 8 years like some may have liked, but they certainly had plenty of kicks at the can. They just botched the majority of them.

They aren’t likely to see any top 10 picks in the next few years.

 

[Boris Zubov]

He 100% can, but he was basically tied down to Panarin last season. Panarin would have to be with Zibanejad or Chytil so Trocheck can be more of a shutdown type player.

The question becomes what line does Panarin fit with? Panarin/Zibanejad has not been a great fit, so that would mean Chytil. I think this was one of the possibilities we saw when Panarin signed that maybe Chytil can fill a role similar to what PLD did with him in Columbus. If you want a shutdown line with Trocheck, this is probably the way to go:

Lafreniere-Zibanejad-Kakko
Panarin-Chytil-Vesey
Kreider-Trocheck-Wheeler

Maybe you can swap Vesey and Wheeler at times, late in games when you really need the offense, but someone needs to be the defensive conscience of the line. I think that is the best course of action to begin with. Laf/Kakko get to play with Mika. Sink or swim time. I'm putting them on the same PP unit too.

I think you swap Vesey & Wheeler full time & that's what you run with....until one of Othmann or Cuylie can earn a spot.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Laf had a slightly better year, but it’s not a terrible comparison.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Pretty much this. It’s hard to do worse than they did with so many premium picks. It’s really unacceptable. They didn’t rebuild for 8 years like some may have liked, but they certainly had plenty of kicks at the can. They just botched the majority of them.

This makes it sound like they went off the board with Laf or Kakko.
Everyone in the nhl makes those picks.
Yeah lias and krav busted, but both Laf and Kakko are nhl players already.

I’d also say that they’ve done a solid job at drafting and talent evaluation over the rebuild.

How much of our core roster is ufa signing? That’s the sign of good roster construction.

 

[RangerBoy]

Berne, @kilowatt is on my ignore list for the last year.

I believe his ideas for Kings is so impatient and not strategical that does not need to be taken seriously.

This is my opinion only...

Another team should contact Blake regarding Turcotte. The player has no future there. Turcotte has only played 71 games the last couple of seasons. There is only one more season left before his waiver eligibility expires.

 

[Clark Kellogg]

NHL Network’s New York Rangers offseason outlook:

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

I think the line of Kreider - Trocheck - Wheeler will be the best combo for Wheeler, since he is slow as shit - the other two can push the pace.

This would be a 3A/2B line. You have Kakko as the other RW up top with Mika.

Problem is who are you playing between or below them?

If they can find a way to trade Goodrow and fit in Tank, that would be ideal and also give them some needed depth on the right side. Much deeper team with those moves. Otherwise if one of Kakko or Wheeler are out you become very thin on that side. Vesey / Goodrow would likely move up in that case

 

[I Eat Crow]

He 100% can, but he was basically tied down to Panarin last season. Panarin would have to be with Zibanejad or Chytil so Trocheck can be more of a shutdown type player.

The question becomes what line does Panarin fit with? Panarin/Zibanejad has not been a great fit, so that would mean Chytil. I think this was one of the possibilities we saw when Panarin signed that maybe Chytil can fill a role similar to what PLD did with him in Columbus. If you want a shutdown line with Trocheck, this is probably the way to go:

Lafreniere-Zibanejad-Kakko
Panarin-Chytil-Vesey
Kreider-Trocheck-Wheeler

Maybe you can swap Vesey and Wheeler at times, late in games when you really need the offense, but someone needs to be the defensive conscience of the line. I think that is the best course of action to begin with. Laf/Kakko get to play with Mika. Sink or swim time. I'm putting them on the same PP unit too.

Absolutely. Trochek and Staal took the hard defensive assignments in Carolina to free up Aho to contribute more on offense.

Novel concept, I know. Maybe the Rangers should try that for Zibanejad.

I think the line of Kreider - Trocheck - Wheeler will be the best combo for Wheeler, since he is slow as shit - the other two can push the pace.

This would be a 3A/2B line. You have Kakko as the other RW up top with Mika.

Problem is who are you playing between or below them?

If they can find a way to trade Goodrow and fit in Tank, that would be ideal and also give them some needed depth on the right side. Much deeper team with those moves. Otherwise if one of Kakko or Wheeler are out you become very thin on that side. Vesey / Goodrow would likely move up in that case

Panarin-Zib-Kakko
Lafreniere-Chytil-Wheeler
Kreider-Trochek-Goodrow (matchup line)
Vesey-Bonino-Belzile/Pitlick

Is what I'd like to see to start. Cuylle, Berard, Othmann marinate in Hartford and earn it. Give Lafreniere and Kakko the ball with top 6 minutes and Lafreniere PP1 time on the right wall. Kakko net front guy on PP2.

 

[RangerBoy]

Kreider-Mika-Kakko
Panarin-Chytil-Lafreniere
Goodrow-Trocheck-Wheeler

Kakko and Lafreniere need to play in the top 6 and receive meaningful power play minutes. Just trade them if that is not the case. End the charade and move on. It's ridiculous. Stop throwing obstacles in their directions. Strome leaves as a free agent and Trocheck is signed to replace him. Gallant didn’t put Lafreniere or Kakko on the PP to replace Strome. Trocheck replaced Strome on the PP because according to Gallant the bumper needs to be a righty because the Rangers set up the PP from that side. Here comes Tarasenko and especially Kane right before the trading deadline. The righty in the bumper is ancient history. Such bullshit.

 

[B17 Apricots]

I framed my argument for "keep rebuilding," around this so many times. We bet the window on this aging veteran core remaining elite until Kakko and Laf became stars at the same time, but it wasn't smart in my book.

For the Rangers to have enough talent to win a Cup, Kakko, Chytil, Lafreniere, and probably Krav or Andersson or both really needed to be here putting up way more contributions that each of them have, respectively, and they all needed to do it WHILE Panarin, Zibanejad, Kreider and Trouba were at their peaks.

That ship is quickly sailing. Trouba is already no good anymore, Kreider has surprisingly extended his top end usefulness but Panarin surprisingly seems to not be giving us what I expected.

Kakko and Lafreniere maybe still end up as first line players or more, but when? In 2 more years? It will be too late.

Too many people expected us to be able to win with the Panarin/Trouba/Kreider core and it was never enough talent on hand without Lafreniere and Kakko and OTHER kids as well taking big steps, and at this stage, unless Kakko and Laf both pop significantly this year, it is looking like its too late.

This should be the last try. I'm talking tear down and rebuild again if they don't win the Cup this year.

Panarin, Kreider, Trouba, yeah maybe even Zibanejad moved. Shesterkin on the table too.

Fox has to stay but rebuild again around whatever you are gonna get out of Chytil-Kakko-Laf and the defensive core (Fox, Miller, Schneider, Jones, Robertson could still be a decent core that needs another big name). Start adding picks and find an elite center for once in our damn lives. Hope that Othmann and Perrault are the real deal.

We just have to look across the river to see the right amount of young talent that you need.

I wouldn't frame it as "rebuild again" just because I think the group should be talented enough to not fit that term.. but I think you have to look at a team like Tampa. This is the reality of the salary cap world. The team that Tampa has built today, beginning with Stamkos at 1st OA and Hedman at 2nd OA over a decade ago, used to consist of some prominent core players. Vinny Lecavalier, Marty St Louis.. 2 stars. Teddy Purcell wasn't a huge name, but he was a key piece there for a few years around that time. Between their drafted players and undrafted FAs, they transitioned away from those guys.. now to be fair it wasn't a hard choice to make, they were getting up there in age, Stamkos was a star.. but at the same time St Louis was still a point per game player and Lecavalier was still effective in Tampa. They transitioned away from them into guys like Killorn, Palat, and Johnson. Then Kucherov, Callahan and Drouin came into the mix. Callahan and Drouin go right back out. Enter Point, Gourde, Cirelli and briefly, JT Miller. Not long after JT, gone. Gourde, gone, they bring in Hagel. Palat and Killorn, gone. They brought in players like Stralman, McDonagh, and Sergachev on D. Stamkos and Hedman were their staples. Then Kucherov became a staple. Then Vasilevsky, Point and Sergachev. They're continuously supplementing and rotating their core with trades, free agents, and undrafted signings. They've had so many different core players over the years.

The big standard set by these cup teams in the salary cap world is you have a few staple players and if you build the proper way consistently rotate the core as needed.

I think this group is talented enough to win a cup but if they don't it'll just be a natural transition where guys like Schneider will supersede Trouba, Lafrenière, Othmann and Perreault will supersede Kreider and Panarin etc.. we have young players that have a chance to be real staples here for a long time. So I don't disagree with your premise, I just wouldn't really call it a rebuild as I think we have the young pieces in place and the additional money from the vets eventual departure to put together a team that can contend

 

[RangersFan1994]

Lemiieux to Hurricanes

 

[Levitate]

I think it’s very unlikely that the rangers just happened to draft two guys at 2OA and 1OA that were naturally huge busts

It’s very definitely player development one way or another here

 

[Barnaby]

This makes it sound like they went off the board with Laf or Kakko.
Everyone in the nhl makes those picks.
Yeah lias and krav busted, but both Laf and Kakko are nhl players already.

I’d also say that they’ve done a solid job at drafting and talent evaluation over the rebuild.

How much of our core roster is ufa signing? That’s the sign of good roster construction.

Consensus or not, you made the picks. You have a scouting department for a reason.

Four top 10 picks including two in the top 2 and right now you have 2 absolute busts and 2 underwhelming top 2 picks. That’s not good. I’m not saying you’ll mail every pick, but you can’t keep missing on high end picks. That’s why you have an aging forward core, and you have your fingers crossed that hopefully Laf and Kakko live up to the billing.

 

[KevinFinnerty]

I honestly hope Tarasenko gives us a major discount. He made his money at this point of his career, won a cup, has a hot Russian wife who is probably dying to stay in New York, I mean what else do you want? He should stay for like $2M a year.

 

[GAGLine]

Laf had a slightly better year, but it’s not a terrible comparison.

Newhook has 66 points in 159 career games. That's an average of .415 points per game.

Laf has 91 points in 216 games. That's an average of .421 points per game.

Newhook got a 4 year deal (will still be an RFA at the end). Laf will get 2 years, so I would expect the AAV to be around 2.6 mil.