Roster Building Thread VI (2022-23): Offseason edition

[duhmetreE]

It's a combo of the two. 1st & 2nd OA picks need to contribute way more than these two have in order for teams to win it all. The vets need to look in the mirror, however.

I'd put the vets way ahead of the kids though. It's the blind leading the blind at this point. From coaching, to vets to the young ones.

I couldn't care less about regular season stats... Powerplay stats... it bores me

 

[Boris Zubov]

I'd put the vets way ahead of the kids though. It's the blind leading the blind at this point. From coaching, to vets to the young ones.

I couldn't care less about regular season stats... Powerplay stats... it bores me

My point wasn't about stats with Zib & Panarin, more about the countless times have we lost big regular season games when Zib & Panarin were complete no shows. Strome was a huge part of that as well when he was here. It started in the covid bubble for those 3 & continued full throttle the next year when we missed the playoffs. Those back to backs vs the Isles right before Dolan went scorched earth was the pinnacle. We still had an outside chance to sneak in to the playoffs before they embarrassed us.

 

[Machinehead]

It's a combo of the two. 1st & 2nd OA picks need to contribute way more than these two have in order for teams to win it all. The vets need to look in the mirror, however.

Getting more out of Panarin isn't bringing a 40% xGF team to the Stanley Cup. He's already one of our better 5v5 players. Zibanejad absolutely is what he is and always has been. Kreider had like 45 goals in 7 games against NJ and we still lost. Which one are we getting significantly more out of?

The team sucks 5v5 because their forward corps sucks. Too many replacement-level spare parts playing too many minutes (and let's be real, that includes Kane since like 2018).

The team has like 50 cents in cap space and they need two very good forwards that they don't have.

The only guys in the age range to profoundly improve are Lafreniere and Kakko.

If they met their draft hype, you can't tell me this team doesn't win a Cup in the past two years, even with Panarin as he is.

It's on them.

 

[Machinehead]

Everyone looks at the Devils as a model (not disagreeing) but their stars absolutely performed a scat show in the playoffs. I think I outscored Bratt and Meier. Hischier was mid as f***. Hughes went cold against Carolina.

It's a dice roll whether your guys are hot in the playoffs.

Vegas' core was a loser until it suddenly wasn't. Colorado's core was a loser until it suddenly wasn't. Tampa's core was a loser (f***ing forever) until it suddenly wasn't.

We're not even getting a dice roll. We're not close. We're not good enough. The roster isn't good enough. The only potential huge improvement to the roster is young players becoming actual pieces.

 

[mas0764]

Do you not see the irony in your statement.

Perhaps, but I'll stand by it.

You keep trying to frame it as "utopia," but that's just not it. We clearly don't have enough building block pieces at this point because Krav and Andersson busted and we traded away too many other high end pieces for not enough return.

We sold ourselves short and now we don't have enough.

You're entitled to use whatever definition you want, but it goes against every definition of "core" I've ever heard. Yes, it's your all-star caliber players. I've literally never seen anybody use a different parameter.

To be fair Chris Kreider was made part of our "core," before he was ever an all star. Guys like Stepan too.

We do "core," differently in NY when it comes to forward talent though.

 

[bhamill]

You're entitled to use whatever definition you want, but it goes against every definition of "core" I've ever heard. Yes, it's your all-star caliber players. I've literally never seen anybody use a different parameter.

Regardless of you disagreeing with my use of the word “core” I think I clarified what I actually meant. I’m not sure why we are still talking about that word. If you want to point me to some source where it’s outlined the way you take it, I’d be more than happy to go read it.
But Miriam Webster includes “a basic, essential, or enduring part (as of an individual, a class, or an entity).
As well as: “ a central and often foundational part usually distinct from the enveloping part by a difference in nature”
If you choose interpret this as only Fox, Shesty, Pan Kreider and Zib, that’s fine but I’m confident in my inclusions especially when they talk about foundational and enduring, as those young players are meant to be just that in the scheme of building the team.
Yes I’m aware I just did the same thing and continued talking about the word definition. Hahahaha. But I’m done now.
In any case anyone can see what I was saying about our team age and I’m not going to argue it further. There’s no point.

 

[mas0764]

He's absolutely right. The cap is killing us and the vets are what they are. We bet this window on them being contributors.

I framed my argument for "keep rebuilding," around this so many times. We bet the window on this aging veteran core remaining elite until Kakko and Laf became stars at the same time, but it wasn't smart in my book.

For the Rangers to have enough talent to win a Cup, Kakko, Chytil, Lafreniere, and probably Krav or Andersson or both really needed to be here putting up way more contributions that each of them have, respectively, and they all needed to do it WHILE Panarin, Zibanejad, Kreider and Trouba were at their peaks.

That ship is quickly sailing. Trouba is already no good anymore, Kreider has surprisingly extended his top end usefulness but Panarin surprisingly seems to not be giving us what I expected.

Kakko and Lafreniere maybe still end up as first line players or more, but when? In 2 more years? It will be too late.

Too many people expected us to be able to win with the Panarin/Trouba/Kreider core and it was never enough talent on hand without Lafreniere and Kakko and OTHER kids as well taking big steps, and at this stage, unless Kakko and Laf both pop significantly this year, it is looking like its too late.

This should be the last try. I'm talking tear down and rebuild again if they don't win the Cup this year.

Panarin, Kreider, Trouba, yeah maybe even Zibanejad moved. Shesterkin on the table too.

Fox has to stay but rebuild again around whatever you are gonna get out of Chytil-Kakko-Laf and the defensive core (Fox, Miller, Schneider, Jones, Robertson could still be a decent core that needs another big name). Start adding picks and find an elite center for once in our damn lives. Hope that Othmann and Perrault are the real deal.

We just have to look across the river to see the right amount of young talent that you need.

 

[Machinehead]

Perhaps, but I'll stand by it.

You keep trying to frame it as "utopia," but that's just not it. We clearly don't have enough building block pieces at this point because Krav and Andersson busted and we traded away too many other high end pieces for not enough return.

We sold ourselves short and now we don't have enough.



To be fair Chris Kreider was made part of our "core," before he was ever an all star. Guys like Stepan too.

We do "core," differently in NY when it comes to forward talent though.

You make a fair point but I would argue Kreider became an all-star level player in like 2017. He just couldn't stay on the ice.

If he played 82 games every year, he'd be working on like a half dozen consecutive 35 goal seasons.

 

[Fitzy]

You're entitled to use whatever definition you want, but it goes against every definition of "core" I've ever heard. Yes, it's your all-star caliber players. I've literally never seen anybody use a different parameter.

I always defined it as "Important players likely to still be here in 5 years"

Like a 'core' it's something you build around. All our older discussions of who would end up 'core' players meaning who is gonna be re-signed and kept at all cost and who is likely to be shuffled out for cap reasons like Hagelin.

Similar to how Chicago kept it's 'core' of Kane, Toews, Keith through their cup wins but had an entourage of others around them. Crosby, Malkin, Letang in Pitt

So in this context I consider our core to be Zibanejad, Fox, and Miller.

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

there's many ways to take care of it 'unofficially'.

take the $1M and 'we'll take care of you'

Like what the Knicks did with Josh Hart

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

Elliotte believes Tarasenko will sign a one year deal and become a free agent again next summer when the salary cap increases. Some teams would give 2 or 3 years but Tarasenko is more likely to sign a one year deal.

Ottawa
Carolina
San Jose
Nashville
Florida

Karlsson will get moved to either Carolina or Pittsburgh

Karlsson doesn’t make sense for Shitsburgh or Carolina. Shitsburgh has Letang, are they gonna cut his ice time for Karlsson? Are they both gonna play on the first power play unit? Same with Carolina and Burns. Let Shitsburgh keep kicking the can down the road. Dubas is gonna set that franchise back years by continually going all in when they badly need a retool.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Getting more out of Panarin isn't bringing a 40% xGF team to the Stanley Cup. He's already one of our better 5v5 players. Zibanejad absolutely is what he is and always has been. Kreider had like 45 goals in 7 games against NJ and we still lost. Which one are we getting significantly more out of?

The team sucks 5v5 because their forward corps sucks. Too many replacement-level spare parts playing too many minutes (and let's be real, that includes Kane since like 2018).

The team has like 50 cents in cap space and they need two very good forwards that they don't have.

The only guys in the age range to profoundly improve are Lafreniere and Kakko.

If they met their draft hype, you can't tell me this team doesn't win a Cup in the past two years, even with Panarin as he is.

It's on them.

I mostly agree, as I've made it clear that our roster sucks for over 2 years now. The kids not living up to their potential are a huge part of the problem.

The one thing that I'll differ on is Mika. He's not the same player 5v5 that he was 18-19, 19-20. So I'm actually unsure what the current version of him is. Will he rebound in a new system & be more of a complete player again or will he continue to be just an average 5v5 center who excels on the PP? I feel like they should lessen his role, by reducing his PK time. Maybe that would help him find his legs again...He & Fox always look tired.

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

Tarasenko likely to just sign a 1 year deal per EF

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

Tarasenko likely to just sign a 1 year deal per EF

Might as well do that here. Seriously. Ottawa isn't going to do shit this year except trade him as a rental and he won't have the numbers he'd have here in Carolina.

 

[mike14]

Might as well do that here. Seriously. Ottawa isn't going to do shit this year except trade him as a rental and he won't have the numbers he'd have here in Carolina.

Somewhere like Ottawa makes sense IMO. Play at 80% for the season avoiding injury and staying fit knowing there'll be a TDL market regardless of stats, get traded for a hopeful cup run, sign a bigger deal when there's some $$ to throw around

 

[I Eat Crow]

Karlsson doesn’t make sense for Shitsburgh or Carolina. Shitsburgh has Letang, are they gonna cut his ice time for Karlsson? Are they both gonna play on the first power play unit? Same with Carolina and Burns. Let Shitsburgh keep kicking the can down the road. Dubas is gonna set that franchise back years by continually going all in when they badly need a retool.

No one has cap space. Any team taking Karlsson will have to send a bad contract back to SJ to fit him in. From a personnel standpoint, I agree with you, the fits in Carolina and Pittsburgh are head scratchers for the reasons you stated.

Chicago makes a ton of sense if they're going to YOLO it and make a push for the playoffs again right away. Think they can get Seth Jones to waive?

Edmonton also makes sense and has the need. What do they trade though?

Dark horse teams can be Dallas, Florida, Toronto even. Ironically, I'd say the timeline for a second stint in Ottawa makes a ton of sense.

 

[Zarao71]

Despite popular opinion I think The Trouba signing has been a win.
No F'n way we sniff the Conference finals in 2022 without him.
The hits on Crosby and Jarvis were series changing.
The helmet toss and hit on Khaira saved Gallants job and turned last season around.
Maybe if he blew up Meier in game 4 instead of game 7 the Devils would've cried uncle.
Gotta wonder how guys like Miller and Schneider would've developed if you replace Trouba with Pionk.
In hindsight, he was the obvious choice for captain.
I'd bet a paycheck Toronto would trade Nylander for Trouba in a heartbeat.

 

[nsvoyageurs]

I framed my argument for "keep rebuilding," around this so many times. We bet the window on this aging veteran core remaining elite until Kakko and Laf became stars at the same time, but it wasn't smart in my book.

For the Rangers to have enough talent to win a Cup, Kakko, Chytil, Lafreniere, and probably Krav or Andersson or both really needed to be here putting up way more contributions that each of them have, respectively, and they all needed to do it WHILE Panarin, Zibanejad, Kreider and Trouba were at their peaks.

That ship is quickly sailing. Trouba is already no good anymore, Kreider has surprisingly extended his top end usefulness but Panarin surprisingly seems to not be giving us what I expected.

Kakko and Lafreniere maybe still end up as first line players or more, but when? In 2 more years? It will be too late.

Too many people expected us to be able to win with the Panarin/Trouba/Kreider core and it was never enough talent on hand without Lafreniere and Kakko and OTHER kids as well taking big steps, and at this stage, unless Kakko and Laf both pop significantly this year, it is looking like its too late.

This should be the last try. I'm talking tear down and rebuild again if they don't win the Cup this year.

Panarin, Kreider, Trouba, yeah maybe even Zibanejad moved. Shesterkin on the table too.

Fox has to stay but rebuild again around whatever you are gonna get out of Chytil-Kakko-Laf and the defensive core (Fox, Miller, Schneider, Jones, Robertson could still be a decent core that needs another big name). Start adding picks and find an elite center for once in our damn lives. Hope that Othmann and Perrault are the real deal.

We just have to look across the river to see the right amount of young talent that you need.

I would give the Rangers this upcoming year and next. If they don't win the Cup, or at least come close, it'll be time to go back to the drawing board, and I don't mean dump these big names for someone else's big names; i.e., rearranging the deck chairs. Hopefully, they would stick to the rebuild this time and not half-ass it & accelerate before they're ready to win again.

Most of the NMCs will have turned into at least partial NTCs by then (I think next summer, actually), so they'll be easier to move.

 

[Machinehead]

I mostly agree, as I've made it clear that our roster sucks for over 2 years now. The kids not living up to their potential are a huge part of the problem.

The one thing that I'll differ on is Mika. He's not the same player 5v5 that he was 18-19, 19-20. So I'm actually unsure what the current version of him is. Will he rebound in a new system & be more of a complete player again or will he continue to be just an average 5v5 center who excels on the PP? I feel like they should lessen his role, by reducing his PK time. Maybe that would help him find his legs again...He & Fox always look tired.

You make a good point about Mika.

He was legitimately great in 18-19 and could have scored 60 in 19-20 if not for the virus and injuries.

One thing that's changed is his usage. He's gone from our #1 center with typical 1C matchups to probably the center with the hardest usage in the league.

Granted, Kreider plays with him, so Kreider is shit canning the top players in the league every night, but that's Chris Kreider. He's a different one.

At this point, maybe just don't? I get it -- you want a reliable matchup center, but it's gotten to the point where he's getting outplayed constantly.

I mentioned earlier the huge shift away from shutdown forwards around the league. Outside of Bergeron and low-key McDavid (nobody talks about how great he is at defense for some reason), most 1C's suck at defense anymore.

Teams are setting up their shifts to make hay offensively and we're not really using the Kreider-Zibanejad line primarily to create offense. We need more offense.

We don't need a single shutdown center. All three of our top centers are decent enough defensively. Let them split matchups.

I'd also like to see Zibanejad PK less.

 

[Mac n Gs]

I’m curious what the rest of this list looks like. What’s the average age of the youngest team? Does this data mean anything at all?

I don’t get why people keep trying to peddle this narrative. Brooks did it. Friedman did it. I’m sure signing the following had nothing to do with it:

Blake Wheeler (36 years old)
Jonathan Quick (37 years old)
Nick Bonino (35 years old)
Tyler Pitlick (31 years old)
Erik Gustaffson (31 years old)
Riley Nash (34 years old)

It’s just lazy

 

[Zarao71]

I would give the Rangers this upcoming year and next. If they don't win the Cup, or at least come close, it'll be time to go back to the drawing board, and I don't mean dump these big names for someone else's big names; i.e., rearranging the deck chairs. Hopefully, they would stick to the rebuild this time and not half-ass it & accelerate before they're ready to win again.

Most of the NMCs will have turned into at least partial NTCs by then (I think next summer, actually), so they'll be easier to move.

If Panarin craps the bed again he's gone. Even at 50%. No way this organization goes full rebuild when they are a shoe in for the playoffs.

 

[Zarao71]

I don’t get why people keep trying to peddle this narrative. Brooks did it. Friedman did it. I’m sure signing the following had nothing to do with it:

Blake Wheeler (36 years old)
Jonathan Quick (37 years old)
Nick Bonino (35 years old)
Tyler Pitlick (31 years old)
Erik Gustaffson (31 years old)
Riley Nash (34 years old)

It’s just lazy

Looks like 1 legit veteran top 6 guy on a sweetheart deal and a bunch of journeyman bottom feeders.

 

[Machinehead]

If Panarin craps the bed again he's gone. Even at 50%. No way this organization goes full rebuild when they are a shoe in for the playoffs.

Without Panarin, they're not a playoff team.

If what you mentioned ends up being the direction they go in, they're rebuilding.

 

[I Eat Crow]

You make a good point about Mika.

He was legitimately great in 18-19 and could have scored 60 in 19-20 if not for the virus and injuries.

One thing that's changed is his usage. He's gone from our #1 center with typical 1C matchups to probably the center with the hardest usage in the league.

Granted, Kreider plays with him, so Kreider is shit canning the top players in the league every night, but that's Chris Kreider. He's a different one.

At this point, maybe just don't? I get it -- you want a reliable matchup center, but it's gotten to the point where he's getting outplayed constantly.

I mentioned earlier the huge shift away from shutdown forwards around the league. Outside of Bergeron and low-key McDavid (nobody talks about how great he is at defense for some reason), most 1C's suck at defense anymore.

Teams are setting up their shifts to make hay offensively and we're not really using the Kreider-Zibanejad line primarily to create offense. We need more offense.

We don't need a single shutdown center. All three of our top centers are decent enough defensively. Let them split matchups.

I'd also like to see Zibanejad PK less.

I've been saying this for three years. The Rangers need to stop using him on the PK so much. Krieder I get because he's lethal in the transition, but I wince every time Zib rushes the point towards a point man winding up for a shot.

I've shat on the Bonino signing, but the one thing he should be able to do is take Zib off the PK. Goodrow, Trochek, and Bonino take draws, Kreider, Vesey, and Kakko (I think he'd be an excellent PK'er if he's allowed to run with it) are your PK units.

You put Kreider and Trochek on the same line and let them match up against the other team's best offensive players to free up Zibanejad to go HAM at ES on offense. Trochek went from Carolina's 2nd line shut down center that was a face-off savant to whatever he was last year. I was appalled at how much he seemed to regress last season defensively. I'm willing to wager it was mostly coaching, but time will tell.

 

[Zarao71]

Without Panarin, they're not a playoff team.

If what you mentioned ends up being the direction they go in, they're rebuilding.

Look at Philly, the Caps, Isles, Colombus, Pittsburgh.
You really think the loss of Panarin is that big of a deal.