Roster Building Thread VI (2022-23): Offseason edition

[GoAwayPanarin]

For those that though Zadina wouldn't sign a contract that could be fully buried in the AHL.

I don't know that playing for David "earn it" Quinn is the best plan for someone trying to revive their career.

 

[bhamill]

Are we really holding up the Sens as the model for success? Do we really think those two extra shifts over the course of a game matter that much?

Weaker line mates also lead to weaker match ups. Everyone keeps calling all 3 of them top 6 forwards so idk where the problem is.

If you don’t get that three young guys trying to all find their games together is sub optimal, I can’t make you. I’m talking about development, not straight up stats. And yes, 11% more ice time is significant. Playing with first line players is significant. Responsibility and pp1 time are significant… if you don’t accept any of that there’s no discussion to be had. And that’s fine, but let’s not pretend that either of our opinions are absolute truths here.

I understand your point. I do not think 90 seconds more is that significant compared to the first 14 minutes each guy played. Nobody wants Laf and KK to play great more than I do but its okay for me to admit Tim has played better so far. 1 scout out of many had Tim over Laf. I would probably see if we can get that scout. Its hard to go against overwhelming consensus. Tims skating and stickhandling have been very good for a young guy. My hope is that Laf and KK get to a point soon where we can say all 3 are comparable.

It’s 11% more. It’s statistically, factually significant.
Tim has played better so far. No argument.

 

[kinghock]

Trade w/Jones to LAK
for
Byfield, Clarke, late LA 2024 1st, Talbot

LA is now 3/4 mil below cap
Shesty + ZJ = 5.6+ + .81+ = just over 6.4+ ish
Talb = 1 By + Clarke elcs .89+ + .86+ = 1.75+

so 6.4+ - 1.75+ = ballpark 4.7 short term cap dump we have to add from them

1. makes LA fave in conf
2. helps Rs w/foundational quality pieces ready/close to ready
3. forces ny to develop youth [Garand]
4. bite back in the ass factor is minimal b'c you shipped Shesty out of conf

Outside chance in 2 yrs he reups here w/a better team


meanwhile tell Talb starter gig is his until Garand takes it away

Berne I always respected your opinion, but do not agree with your proposal from Kings point of view.

Kings did not trade Byfield for PLD, they traded Vilardi instead.

LA considers Clarke to be untouchable in trades. He is the only possible 1D on the team.

Shesty is great goalie, but Kings will not trade those assets for him.

P.S. ZJ is not needed in LA.

 

[NickyFotiu]

It’s 11% more. It’s statistically, factually significant.
Tim has played better so far. No argument.

Instead of debating the significance of the 90 seconds I will ask is the extra 90 seconds the reason Tim has played better or has Tim been a better player in minutes 0-14? I think our coaches and management would love to give Laf and KK 18-20 minutes a game. If they play at a level where those dominate those larger minutes it gives them so much more flexibility not only on the ice in game but more importantly cap wise. If Laf scores 90 points next season that gives Drury the ability to try to move one of our bigger LW contracts. If KK scores 90 points next season then Drury doesn't need to find a 1st line RW via draft, trade or FA. I know there are a few knuckleheads on this board that seem to root against Laf and KK but for 99% of fans, coaches, management, etc we would/will be thrilled if one or both of these guys becomes a big time player. I'm willing to wait. It does not have to be next season. The sooner the better but I just want to see some crazy efforts and hunger from them. If I do then I will not care about the stats.

 

[Barnaby]

How much cap do you feel is worth it for a goalie and can you name a goalie you like for our team that was a UFA in the last few years that fits that amount?

I know people couldn’t wait to get Georgiev out the door. Most high level free agents are overpaid an underwhelming. It sounds nicer in theory than practice.

Grubbauer 6 million per
Kuemper 6 million per
Jack Campbell / Matt Murray

All of those players make the team significantly worse.

 

[Barnaby]

I don't know that playing for David "earn it" Quinn is the best plan for someone trying to revive their career.

When did players earning it become a bad thing? I don’t know if this is a cultural phenomenon or just an apologist excuse for Lafreniere and Kakko. I’m sure the DRW really wanted Zadina to work. Putting a player in over there head isn’t necessarily a good idea either.

 

[bhamill]

As far as ice time we were only comparing their D+1s. If you fast forward to 22-23:
Stutzle getting 21:16 top line and pp1 with Tkachuk and Giroux.
Kakko getting 15:18, Laf getting 15:13 with each other and another young inconsistent player, as they all try to find their pro games with no veteran presence on the line, and with random 30 second shifts on pp2.
You can again say Tim SHOULD be there (and I agree) but WOULD he deserve to be there if he hadn’t gotten the constant time and responsibility he was given When he HADN’T earned it? If KK and Laf had gotten the same treatment and usage would they currently deserve the minutes, usage and responsibility that Tim now enjoys? It’s impossible to answer of course, which means it’s hard to discount. If you look at it, you can’t find many 1 and 2OA picks that didn’t receive the treatment Stutzl, Hughes, etc have received. It’s correlation. Which does not necessarily equal causation. But it’s quite a coincidence looking at our TWO “disappointments” in relation to the overwhelming majority of top picks and how they were treated.

 

[JimmyG89]

Went from middle of the pack to one of the older teams in the league.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

When did players earning it become a bad thing? I don’t know if this is a cultural phenomenon or just an apologist excuse for Lafreniere and Kakko. I’m the DRW really wanted Zadina to work.

It goes against the development philosophy of pretty much every single team that has had success with it since the beginning of time.

Was the dumbest thing ever. If he hasn't learned from it he will do damage in SJ as well. Already saw it a bit with William Eklund last year.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I know people couldn’t wait to get Georgiev out the door. Most high level free agents are overpaid an underwhelming. It sounds nicer in theory than practice.

If a team does not have a consistently good goalie then they have to bet that their goalie will get hot at the right time. I do not think many teams are winning cups with bad goalie play. Even before the cup many playoff upsets come down to superior goaltending. When Columbus upset Tampa it was largely due to a goalie that was standing on his head.

 

[bhamill]

Instead of debating the significance of the 90 seconds I will ask is the extra 90 seconds the reason Tim has played better or has Tim been a better player in minutes 0-14? I think our coaches and management would love to give Laf and KK 18-20 minutes a game. If they play at a level where those dominate those larger minutes it gives them so much more flexibility not only on the ice in game but more importantly cap wise. If Laf scores 90 points next season that gives Drury the ability to try to move one of our bigger LW contracts. If KK scores 90 points next season then Drury doesn't need to find a 1st line RW via draft, trade or FA. I know there are a few knuckleheads on this board that seem to root against Laf and KK but for 99% of fans, coaches, management, etc we would/will be thrilled if one or both of these guys becomes a big time player. I'm willing to wait. It does not have to be next season. The sooner the better but I just want to see some crazy efforts and hunger from them. If I do then I will not care about the stats.

It doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive, but I will go out on a limb and say that giving high picks more ice time, better linemates, pp1 opportunity, and increased responsibility without the constant threat of benching for rookie mistakes hanging over their heads is a great boon to their development.

Went from middle of the pack to one of the older teams in the league.

Yeah, but the core is still fairly young.

 

[Larrys13]

Jeff was pretty good as well

Indeed - he saved us when Bill Simms was hurt

 

[NickyFotiu]

As far as ice time we were only comparing their D+1s. If you fast forward to 22-23:
Stutzle getting 21:16 top line and pp1 with Tkachuk and Giroux.
Kakko getting 15:18, Laf getting 15:13 with each other and another young inconsistent player, as they all try to find their pro games with no veteran presence on the line, and with random 30 second shifts on pp2.
You can again say Tim SHOULD be there (and I agree) but WOULD he deserve to be there if he hadn’t gotten the constant time and responsibility he was given When he HADN’T earned it? If KK and Laf had gotten the same treatment and usage would they currently deserve the minutes, usage and responsibility that Tim now enjoys? It’s impossible to answer of course, which means it’s hard to discount. If you look at it, you can’t find many 1 and 2OA picks that didn’t receive the treatment Stutzl, Hughes, etc have received. It’s correlation. Which does not necessarily equal causation. But it’s quite a coincidence looking at our TWO “disappointments” in relation to the overwhelming majority of top picks and how they were treated.

I respect your opinion. I would say that Hughes and Tim both showed more in minutes 0-14 to excite their teams leading to more minutes. Look at Byfield. He was drafted before Tim. He is not playing large minutes. In fact his minutes went down from his rookie season (only 6 games). We all want to see something to get excited by with these guys. We do see something like a few times a month. If they make that a few times a game their minutes and support will go up fast imo.

 

[effen]

Speed plays early in this league. Laf and Byfield and Kakko are slow to average skaters, Hughes and Stutzle are excellent skaters. It's not ice time. It's not confidence. It's not PP time. It's that excellent skating covers up for every other sin in regular season NHL hockey.

I don't get why this is still a topic.

 

[bhamill]

Speed plays early in this league. Laf and Byfield and Kakko are slow to average skaters, Hughes and Stutzle are excellent skaters. It's not ice time. It's not confidence. It's not PP time. It's that excellent skating covers up for every other sin in regular season NHL hockey.

I don't get why this is still a topic.

It’s all of it. It’s not any one thing. Speedy players definitely fit into the league faster. Players who rely on physicality as much as or more than speed also take longer because they are playing against bigger stronger more mature men. This is not something new that I’ve stumbled on. It’s always been this way. I don’t get why ALL of it, including usage, isn’t obvious.

 

[Tob]

Might be one of the most boring off season in a decade. Just wait for two RFA bridges

 

[mas0764]

Went from middle of the pack to one of the older teams in the league.

Depressing and unacceptable. Have wasted 6-8 prime assets that should be more young players for us.

 

[bhamill]

I respect your opinion. I would say that Hughes and Tim both showed more in minutes 0-14 to excite their teams leading to more minutes. Look at Byfield. He was drafted before Tim. He is not playing large minutes. In fact his minutes went down from his rookie season (only 6 games). We all want to see something to get excited by with these guys. We do see something like a few times a month. If they make that a few times a game their minutes and support will go up fast imo.

Hughes was worse than Laf by EVERY metric, except being faster and looking pretty at times in their D+1s. His numbers, excrept pp scoring, are ALL worse. And that’s probably only because Laf didn’t play at all on the pp. But NJ gave him minutes, pp1 time and responsibility regardless and suffered the rookie damage. They made the investments that we did not. And in case I need to say it, I’m not saying Laf would be scoring like Hughes… but he’d most certainly be significantly farther along in his development.
And I hope it goes without saying that I respect your opinion as well.

 

[Machinehead]

Yeah, but the core is still fairly young.

No it isn't. Panarin, Kreider, and Zibanejad are all in their 30's. That's the core.

The only young player good enough to be considered a core player is Fox and he turns 26 before the season is over -- he's no baby anymore.

 

[bhamill]

No it isn't. Panarin, Kreider, and Zibanejad are all in their 30's. That's the core.

The only young player good enough to be considered a core player is Fox and he turns 26 before the season is over -- he's no baby anymore.

Fox, Shestyrkin, Trouba, Lindgren, Schneider, Laf, Chytil and Kakko aren’t core players? And I didn’t say “babies”…I said “FAIRLY young.”
The additions of Wheeler and other fill in UFA vets jacked up our age.

 

[Machinehead]

Fox, Shestyrkin, Trouba, Schneider, Laf, Chytil and Kakko aren’t core players?

Shesterkin, sure. He's 28 in December and doesn't have a ton of term.

The others, absolutely not, unless "core" means "on the roster."

 

[EdJovanovski]

Shesterkin, sure. He's 28 in December and doesn't have a ton of term.

The others, absolutely not, unless "core" means "on the roster."

Fox isn’t core???

 

[Machinehead]

Fox isn’t core???

Ok you guys have to start reading all the posts in a convo before you premature ejaculate the reply button.

 

[bhamill]

Shesterkin, sure. He's 28 in December and doesn't have a ton of term.

The others, absolutely not, unless "core" means "on the roster."

HE’s 27 NOW. like Fox is 25 NOW. And I didn’t say Vesey, Wheeler, Goodrow, et al. Everyone I mentioned is an important, likely long term piece: core players.

Okay. Not sure what I did here, but
”HE’s 27 NOW. like Fox is 25 NOW. And I didn’t say Vesey, Wheeler, Goodrow, et al. Everyone I mentioned is an important, likely long term piece: core players.” Is the important part. Hahaha.
and EVRY team will have a lot of birthdays this coming season, not just us. Hahaha.

 

[Boris Zubov]

How am I putting words in your mouth? Your premise is that any average goalie should / could suffice to bring Cup home (in the context of whether Shesterkin should be kept / resigned for market value or close once his current deal runs out).

You're being intentionally obtuse now...I literally highlighted the sentence of your post that I never said.