Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXXVII

[SA16]

Top 5 leading scorers in this years playoffs:

1. McDavid 20 points in 9 games. Had 22 points in 21 games before this year.
2. Draisaitl 15 points in 9 games Had 22 points in 21 games before this year.
3. Gaudreau: 13 points in 9 games 19 points in 30 games before this year.
4. Verhaeghe - irrelevant - not a top player and never had this sort of role.
5. Perron - 11 points in 8 games. 48 points in 92 games before this year
6. Marchand: 11 points in 7 games. 107 points in 138 points before this year. (Had several big years recently all of which were were than his regular seasons other than 17-18)

Weird. None of them had a great playoff history before this year. Now suddenly they have good results. It's almost like good players are good and sometimes, often even, in a series of small samples they can easily underperform

Obviously we won’t consider trading Panarin and the teams that could take him on he would block a trade to. I’d still rather not have 12M tied up in him. You saw the scores in the Dallas series right? Oetinger was super human. Tkachuk shows up - as in, he isn’t a flaccid loser who looks like he has ambien in his water bottl / the way our top guys look. He’s a lot to handle. He brings energy every shift. He gets engaged physically every shift. Panarin, to me, is an even less engaged Gaudreau. Gaudreau is at least all around the net. Panarin is allergic to it. But I wouldn’t want Gaudreau either. I don’t want to pay guys who don’t like contact and don’t know how to forecheck, to be our leaders. Panarin at the second highest cap hit in the NHL? I’d repurpose that salary in a number of ways, even if it did mean taking back some salary.

Why is Matthew Tkachuk so bad at playoff time?

18 career playoff games and 6 total points. He seems to become distracted by fighting every series and becomes a clown. Fights Klingberg for no reason tonight and hurts his hand, so now he is even more useless than he already was. Why does Gaudreau get so much blame when Tkachuk is the most...

hfboards.mandatory.com

Tkachuk shows up yet just two weeks ago we had threads about how bad he is in the playoffs, how this happens every year, spending too much time agitating rather than playing etc. Tkachuk being engaged and a playoff performer was not his reputation at all until the last 3-4 games where he played well. He was considered a playoff choker and they're saying Keith Tkachuk was the same way to add to the reputation.

 

[duhmetreE]

The good news, IMO is Drury now gets to assess what this team needs. It's year 1 into our window.

WE DESPERATELY NEED A CAPTAIN AND LEADER. It's evident.

If nothing changes, with how our vets are producing... someone might need to be moved. - Strome is expected at this point. We have all mentioned Kreider from the beginning but with Laffy and Othmann on the way.... There's a chance Panarin's name gets thrown into the mix.

I really want to see Panarin away from Strome and playing with healthy/competent players. He's in his head at this point.

 

[LokiDog]

Top 5 leading scorers in this years playoffs:

1. McDavid 20 points in 9 games. Had 22 points in 21 games before this year.
2. Draisaitl 15 points in 9 games Had 22 points in 21 games before this year.
3. Gaudreau: 13 points in 9 games 19 points in 30 games before this year.
4. Verhaeghe - irrelevant - not a top player and never had this sort of role.
5. Perron - 11 points in 8 games. 48 points in 92 games before this year
6. Marchand: 11 points in 7 games. 107 points in 138 points before this year. (Had several big years recently all of which were were than his regular seasons other than 17-18)

Weird. None of them had a great playoff history before this year. Now suddenly they have good results. It's almost like good players are good and sometimes, often even, in a series of small samples they can easily underperform

I haven’t said a word about production from Panarin so I don’t know why your argument hinges on production? Panarin always gets his points. It doesn’t change the fact that he is playing like sun dried dog shit. He could have 12 points in our 9 games and it still wouldn’t change the fact that he’s a walking turnover machine - and not just turnovers that kill a cycle - blatant, horrible turnovers at both blue lines and allergic to shooting or engaging below the circles in any capacity whatsoever. It’s not his numbers that are making him “not a playoff performer” right now. It’s absolutely selfish, brain dead play combined with his lack of work.

 

[SA16]

I haven’t said a word about production from Panarin so I don’t know why your argument hinges on production? Panarin always gets his points. It doesn’t change the fact that he is playing like sun dried dog shit. He could have 12 points in our 9 games and it still wouldn’t change the fact that he’s a walking turnover machine - and not just turnovers that kill a cycle - blatant, horrible turnovers at both blue lines and allergic to shooting or engaging below the circles in any capacity whatsoever. It’s not his numbers that are making him “not a playoff performer” right now. It’s absolutely selfish, brain dead play combined with his lack of work.

Well he's been on the ice for 6 goals against at 5v5 in 9 games so this walking turnover has not actually negatively impacted the team at all yet. This is just the Nash argument all over again. Best player on the team struggles to start the playoffs so he gets blamed for everything. Nash was always great in the playoffs. Just had some absurd luck.

 

[Graves94]

The glaring issue with how this team is constructed, is that we have a very soft/vanilla looking forward group, especially the top 6. Kreider doesn't use his body enough and the rest are not physically engaged enough, which makes it easy for opposing Dmen to exit the zone and make comfortable plays in their end.
We miss Blais & Goodrow, but these are bottom six guys, who wouldn't get top minutes, but they would defenitely soften up defenses over the course of a series.

 

[LokiDog]

Top 5 leading scorers in this years playoffs:

1. McDavid 20 points in 9 games. Had 22 points in 21 games before this year.
2. Draisaitl 15 points in 9 games Had 22 points in 21 games before this year.
3. Gaudreau: 13 points in 9 games 19 points in 30 games before this year.
4. Verhaeghe - irrelevant - not a top player and never had this sort of role.
5. Perron - 11 points in 8 games. 48 points in 92 games before this year
6. Marchand: 11 points in 7 games. 107 points in 138 points before this year. (Had several big years recently all of which were were than his regular seasons other than 17-18)

Weird. None of them had a great playoff history before this year. Now suddenly they have good results. It's almost like good players are good and sometimes, often even, in a series of small samples they can easily underperform

Why is Matthew Tkachuk so bad at playoff time?

18 career playoff games and 6 total points. He seems to become distracted by fighting every series and becomes a clown. Fights Klingberg for no reason tonight and hurts his hand, so now he is even more useless than he already was. Why does Gaudreau get so much blame when Tkachuk is the most...

hfboards.mandatory.com

Tkachuk shows up yet just two weeks ago we had threads about how bad he is in the playoffs, how this happens every year, spending too much time agitating rather than playing etc. Tkachuk being engaged and a playoff performer was not his reputation at all until the last 3-4 games where he played well. He was considered a playoff choker and they're saying Keith Tkachuk was the same way to add to the reputation.

Again - you have a history of doing this, by the way, which makes it unpleasant to have a debate with you - you are beating me over the head with offensive production as THE metric for whether a player is performing well or making an impact. As I mentioned in my previous post I haven’t said a word about Panarin’s production. I’ve spoke almost exclusively to selfish, lazy turnovers by the dozen and an unwillingness to play in any of the tough areas of the ice. We can either have a civil conversation that speaks to that, or we can leave it off here and go our separate ways.

You’re also getting hung up on me mentioning Tkachuk. Let’s just say you’re 100% correct and he’s actually no better a playoff performer (because only points matter). My point was that I want players who are engaged and bring intensity and play in the tough areas of the ice instead of shying away when the games are most important. Instead of focusing on offensive production as the metric of success, or proving to me that Tkachuk is just as poor of a playoff performer - which are both skirting my main point about Panarin’s play - why don’t we focus on the one thing I was actually speaking to which was not just the lack of production, but the unwillingness to engage and the actual negative impact of brain dead turnover, after turnover, after turnover. Otherwise, this conversation has run its course.

 

[LokiDog]

Well he's been on the ice for 6 goals against at 5v5 in 9 games so this walking turnover has not actually negatively impacted the team at all yet. This is just the Nash argument all over again. Best player on the team struggles to start the playoffs so he gets blamed for everything. Nash was always great in the playoffs. Just had some absurd luck.

Have you seen the games or are you only capable of looking at the stats? Turnover after turnover. Shesterkin has allowed 3 goals this series. Not because Panarin isn’t making turnovers. Because Shesterkin is (spoilers, this went on all year) bailing them out. Just because the turnovers haven’t all ended up in our net doesn’t mean they’re not negatively effecting the team - that’s an absurd argument, by the way - they’re ending possessions, keeping us hemmed in our end, stopping us from being able to get on the attack, forcing Shesterkin to make huge saves or the defense to take penalties. That he’s only been on the ice for 6 5v5 goals doesn’t in any way mean he hasn’t had a negative impact. Ridiculous argument.

 

[LokiDog]

Gee… look at that. Leads the NHL in turnovers this playoffs. 7 turnovers per 60??? Yep. Positive impact.

 

[duhmetreE]

the hope is that Panarin puts it together like Kucherov.

It can happen if he gets linemates like Kucherov. Strome is the problem in a lot of it IMO. Copp was great before he was hobbled. Add a Kakko or Laffy and that's a line that works IMO.

 

[Heckler81]

View attachment 550107

Gee… look at that. Leads the NHL in turnovers this playoffs. 7 turnovers per 60??? Yep. Positive impact.

Geez, I don’t know how valid this is but we have 5 of the top 7 this playoffs?

 

[EdJovanovski]

View attachment 550107

Gee… look at that. Leads the NHL in turnovers this playoffs. 7 turnovers per 60??? Yep. Positive impact.

To give it away you need to have the puck a lot, it's usually always elite players who are among the top in that category

Look at all these bums!

 

[LokiDog]

To give it away you need to have the puck a lot, it's usually always elite players who are among the top in that category

Excuses, excuses. Where are McDavid, Kucherov, etc? They’ve played the same number of games. Panarin is playing inexcusable hockey. His turnovers per 60 is atrocious and his gap on the next players in the turnover lead is big. The Panarin fan boys can come in full force to his defense and it will not change the fact that he is playing horribly. McDavid and Draisaitl each have 12, Kuch has 9, Aho has 7, Zibanejad has 6. These are top line players who have played 9 games. Panarin has 23. There is simply no excuse.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Excuses, excuses. Where are McDavid, Kucherov, etc? They’ve played the same number of games. Panarin is playing inexcusable hockey. His turnovers per 60 is atrocious and his gap on the next players in the turnover lead is big. The Panarin fan boys can come in full force to his defense and it will not change the fact that he is playing horribly. McDavid and Draisaitl each have 12, Kuch has 9, Aho has 7, Zibanejad has 6. These are top line players who have played 9 games. Panarin has 23. There is simply no excuse.

Check the edit, this is a larger sample size. Look at any season, it is always the best players.

 

[LokiDog]

Check the edit, this is a larger sample size. Look at any season, it is always the best players.

The regular season is irrelevant. Larger sample size is irrelevant. We’re not talking about how players HAVE played. We’re not talking about a previous sample of games. We’re talking about a very specific sampling of games and how he has played during these nine games. During THESE playoffs, Panarin has been utterly atrocious with the puck to the detriment of our team and it isn’t simply that turnovers lead to chances against - 7 turnovers per 60 makes it pretty hard for the team to mount any offense either. And every star player on every other team seems to understand that you need to get the puck deep and make the fundamental play in the playoffs, thus why they’re not trying to dangle guys at their own blueline and losing the puck.

Look at your list and find a guy above 5 turnovers per 60 who is an NHL regular. Find all the guys above 4. Tell me why Panarin is at 7 and you’re defending him.
By the way, even using your larger sample size the worst turnovers per 60 in the entire league for any NHL regular was around 4.5. Panarin is at 7. Even giving credence to your argument doesn’t help Panarin’s case.

 

[WojtekWolski86]

Well he's been on the ice for 6 goals against at 5v5 in 9 games so this walking turnover has not actually negatively impacted the team at all yet. This is just the Nash argument all over again. Best player on the team struggles to start the playoffs so he gets blamed for everything. Nash was always great in the playoffs. Just had some absurd luck.

Dude, this is not even close to the Nash comparison. Nash was an elite PK guy and worked the puck in the corners. No one ever questioned Nash's work ethic, he just couldn't finish in the big game.

Panarin either has torn groin/hamstrings or he is just lazy. Either way, his brain is making worst decisions than his ability to skate with/without the puck. This is not a luck thing with Panarin, he is negatively impacting the power play and his team 5v5. We would be better off with a healthier player with zero skill in his position. Ziba's line is getting the checking line matchup, if Panarin can't perform to even 75% of Panarin's ability than we are cooked.

 

[EdJovanovski]

The regular season is irrelevant. Larger sample size is irrelevant. We’re not talking about how players have played. We’re talking about a previous sample of games. We’re talking about a specific sampling of games. During THESE playoffs, Panarin has been utterly atrocious with the puck to the detriment of our team and it isn’t simply that turnovers lead to chances against - 7 turnovers per 60 makes it pretty hard for the team to mount any offense either. And every star player on every other team seems to understand that you need to get the puck deep and make the fundamental play in the playoffs, thus why they’re not trying to dangle guys at their own blueline and losing the puck.

By the way, even using your larger sample size the worst turnovers per 60 in the entire league for any NHL regular was around 4.5. Panarin is at 7. Even giving credence to your argument doesn’t help Panarin’s case.

In 2019-20 you know who led the NHL playoffs in turnovers? Kucherov.
2018-19? Pastrnak
2017-18? Kucherov
2016-17? Malkin
2015-16? Thornton
2014-15? Kane

Panarin has the puck more than anyone else and if you swapped his jersey with Laf or Kakko people would be drooling over him stick handling around 4 guys and creating grade A scoring chances every game, but people only focus on his turnovers. The guy is obviously injured and didn't even play at the end of the season. He was phenomenal in the playoffs for CBJ, people are writing him off now and saying he cannot be a playoff player and we should get rid of him over this, it's ridiculous. When you have a player like Panarin you need another winger who does dirty work but we have Copp who is injured too and hobbling around on one leg. And Strome who everyone on here would have you convinced is the dumbest player in the league. Panarin's results are among the best in Rangers history and our kids who everyone is fawning over right now, their results are among the worst in NHL history for their draft pedigree. Kakko who is having such an incredible playoff has 2 measly points this playoffs. Chytil has 3. Panarin has more than both combined.

 

[LokiDog]

In 2019-20 you know who led the NHL playoffs in turnovers? Kucherov.
2018-19? Pastrnak
2017-18? Kucherov
2016-17? Malkin
2015-16? Thornton
2014-15? Kane

Panarin has the puck more than anyone else and if you swapped his jersey with Laf or Kakko people would be drooling over him stick handling around 4 guys and creating grade A scoring chances every game, but people only focus on his turnovers. The guy is obviously injured and didn't even play at the end of the season. He was phenomenal in the playoffs for CBJ, people are writing him off now and saying he cannot be a playoff player and we should get rid of him over this, it's ridiculous. When you have a player like Panarin you need another winger who does dirty work but we have Copp who is injured too and hobbling around on one leg. And Strome who everyone on here would have you convinced is the dumbest player in the league

Are you dense today?

Elite players have the puck a lot. No one is arguing this. How many turnovers per game did they average when they led the playoffs in turnovers? Panarin is having an OUTLIER season, leading the pack by a larger than reasonable margin. His numbers stand out from the norm. They are blatantly and indefensibly bad. And if you’re watching the games, the turnovers aren’t because he’s driving play - they’re poor decisions. Unforced errors. Bad turnovers.

 

[effen]

This is some weird ass gaslighting with Panarin. He's stunk. He also finds ways to get points, woo wee woo, he's also stunk. A lot.

 

[LokiDog]

@EdJovanovski also you just flat out lied in your previous post. Kucherov was 115th in the NHL in playoff turnovers per 60 last year at 2.13 per game. And 17th in total turnovers. The year before he was 8th in total turnovers and 121st in turnovers per 60.

Do you know what a chump move that is?

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

Forget the stats. Watch the game. I love Panarin as much as anyone, look at my user name. The guy is hurting the team right now with careless, unforced, selfish errors. He needs to wake the f*** up.

 

[EdJovanovski]

@EdJovanovski also you just flat out lied in your previous post. Kucherov was 115th in the NHL in playoff turnovers per 60 last year at 2.13 per game. And 17th in total turnovers. The year before he was 8th in total turnovers and 121st in turnovers per 60.

Do you know what a chump move that is?

I said 2019-20, he had the most turnovers among forwards with 30. I was ranking by turnovers not turnovers/60

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Panarin has been dog shit. Like the worst kind of dog shit that a player can be because he's a top player who isn't only underperforming, hes straight up killing them when hes out there.

He can flip the script by playing better but its amazing the lengths some will go to to defend him. Easily the biggest disappointment in these playoffs for this team.

 

[LokiDog]

In 2019-20 you know who led the NHL playoffs in turnovers? Kucherov.
2018-19? Pastrnak
2017-18? Kucherov
2016-17? Malkin
2015-16? Thornton
2014-15? Kane

2020-21: Actually it was Chiarot. Kucherov was 17th total, 115th per 60
2019-2019: It was Heiskanen. Kucherov was 8th total and 121st per 60.
2018-19: Pasta was 1st, but 31st per 60.
2017-18: John Carlson. Kuch was 8th and 30th in per 60.

You’re a liar and misrepresenter of facts AND in all of those years, these players averaged less than 3.5 turnovers per 60 so less than HALF as many as Panarin.

Moreover, Kucherov had 15 turnovers in 23 games last playoffs. Panarin has 23 turnovers in 9 games.


If you’re going to argue with me, and you argue from a bad faith position, I’m going to lose respect for you.

 

[LokiDog]

I said 2019-20, he had the most turnovers among forwards with 30. I was ranking by turnovers not turnovers/60

You just said “do you know who led the NHL in turnovers”. Not among forwards. Panarin meanwhile leads the ENTIRE league, not just forwards and he has 8 more turnovers in 14 LESS games than Kucherov had in the entire playoffs last year. Kucherov averaged less than 3 per 60. Panarin is over 7.

Just stop. What are you even trying to defend. That 7 turnovers per 60 is acceptable when all of your examples are under 3.5? That Panarin having more turnovers in 9 games than Kucherov had in the entire playoffs last year is acceptable?

 

[duhmetreE]

I really want to like Chytils game but I always come back to his suspect game IQ and vision.

IF we re-sign Copp.... Who's the other middle6 center? Do you stay with Chytil? Do you look to find a stronger 2way fit?