Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXXVII

[Leetch3]

Check the edit, this is a larger sample size. Look at any season, it is always the best players.

giveaways is one of those misleading stats. on their own they are obviously negative, but in order to turn the puck over you need to have the puck. the more you have the puck, the more you will turn it over but also the more you have the puck the more you will score...

basically the inverse of hits and blocked shots. on their own they are positive but if you are throwing a lot of hits and blocking a bunch of shots, that probably means the other team has the puck alot more than you do.

 

[Ola]

Check the edit, this is a larger sample size. Look at any season, it is always the best players.

I also saw a study in the SHL that among other things showed how give aways also are very consistent. You could look at a team’s 5 best games and 5 worst games of a season but the GA foot print was the same. They also looked at like give aways that leads to major scoring chances and came to the same conclusion. The difference from player to player is very small and teams are also really consistent at “it”.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I know it would be controversial but Toews makes a lot of sense

F*** that scumbag.

 

[LokiDog]

Do I think Panarin is injured? Sure. Do I think it excuses the horrible decisions with the puck? Absolutely not.

Two years ago Kucherov was 121st in the NHL in turnovers per 60 in the playoffs, averaging 2.5 per 60 minutes. He also had hip surgery and missed the entire following season (whether he needed to miss the ENTIRE season or they manipulated the cap is a different story - clearly he was playing injured enough during the first Cup run that he had to have surgery before he could play again the next season). If Kucherov could require hip surgery and keep his turnovers under 3 per 60, than no, I don’t think there is ANY excuse for Panarin to be at 7 turnovers per 60 and have more turnovers in 9 games than Kucherov had in 23 games last year.

Why are we stuck on the turnover statistics anyway? It’s just one metric that supports that he’s playing poorly. If he was leading the league but his number was 4.8 and in line with a normal higher end turnover ratio, we could talk about well he’s injured and blah blah. At a staggering 7 turnovers per 60, the only relevance I intended was to show just how far he is sticking out from the pack right now. It’s not a case of the best players have the puck the most so he has a lot of turnovers, but it’s in-line with other players of his caliber. It’s a “wow, that’s an abnormally high number”.

And of course, watching the games, as myself and probably a dozen others have said - it’s not like this is an elite play driver who is getting stripped of the puck in high danger areas of the ice because he’s attacking. It’s clearly this is a guy who is pulling up at the blueline to avoid contact and, rather than sending the puck deep like a hockey player with the simplest concept of fundamentals, is throwing a no-look, behind the back, soft pass out of the zone right onto the stick of Hurricane who can pick it up in stride and lead an odd man rush the other way. It’s trying to dangle an oncoming forechecker 30 feet from your own goal and losing the puck so that the guy is literally alone, one on one with the goalie.

These aren’t turnovers that simply result from the best players have the puck the most and they turn it over because they’re the ones carrying it into the slot area where defense is tightest. It’s this guy is literally terrified of the center of the ice and has been laying set up passes on the opponent’s sticks for 9 straight games because he doesn’t want to get his hands dirty, at all.

I can pass on that type of player regardless of his regular season numbers.

 

[Crease]

I know it would be controversial but Toews makes a lot of sense

If we’re targeting veteran centers, I would rather Bergeron or Giroux. PLD remains my preferred target.

 

[Chalfdiggity3]

If we’re targeting veteran centers, I would rather Bergeron or Giroux. PLD remains my preferred target.

Problem is we cant afford Giroux next contract or PLD with his antics... Bergeron is a different story since he is a FA. Stasny could also fill that 3rd line role without breaking the bank.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

If we’re targeting veteran centers, I would rather Bergeron or Giroux. PLD remains my preferred target.

Bergeron is staying in Boston or retiring, Giroux isn't going to play in NY (nixed the idea of coming here at the deadline.)

PLD is honestly more of the same. We don't really even need a player of that level. I really wish Danault had chosen to play in NY instead of LA (I know they offered the most money.) Would have solved a ton of issues and we wouldn't have had to watch Strome the entire year.

 

[RagFinMet]

Panarin always has and always will turn the puck over
But he turns the puck over because he's trying to generate offense this team badly needs
But creating the TOs and not creating offense is where the difference is between now and regular season
His linemate's struggles are part of the problem as is the trap the canes play.
But i do believe another factor is playoff pressure playing for NYC. Big difference playing here, in the POs while making 12 mil and wanting to prove your worth the money.
I wont judge his performance this season.
It's his first POs in NY and we exceeded expectations
But if he struggles in next years playoffs, he has to go

 

[TheDirtyH]

Not all turnovers are created equal. Many of Panarin's have been towards the middle of the ice; when in the attacking zone, out at the blueline, when in the neutral zone, at our blueline, and when in the defensive zone, towards the high slot.

That said, I still never doubt Panarin when he has the puck, and he continues to make remarkable plays. My problem with him is that I have almost no belief he can get the puck for himself. It's not exclusively about whatever injury he may or may not be dealing with--this has been Panarin since the bubble. He doesn't forecheck, he can't strip guys anymore, he can't play on the wall in tight coverage, and he can't really even one time the puck anymore. well, I don't know if he can't, but he definitely doesn't.

 

[CommaSynapse]

I'm excited that we have some promising players in the prospect pool. Othmann could be a factor in training camp, but I think he needs at least another year. Curious to see what happens with Kravtsov as well.

It's just filling in the blanks at this point. We've hitched our wagon to the top-contract core of Kreider, Zib, Trouba, and Panarin, for at least a good while. Does it make sense to have Laf in a top-6 RW spot?

There's no way we afford all of Vatrano, Copp, and Motte. If Drury manages to unload Nemeth, you can likely afford to bring back both Copp and Motte. My concern here is that Chytil gets lost in the shuffle if both Laf and Kakko are in the top-6.

Chytil has played his best hockey when playing with skill players. If he has a pairing like Blais and Goodrow on his wings, I just don't know that he'll look as improved as he has these playoffs on the kid line.

 

[Synergy27]

The concept of Hunt with Panarin is valid. The execution is not. You need to put a Hunt-type player on that line who is significantly better than Hunt. Motte is a good example, although I’d prefer the better-Hunt play the center position.

I also disagree that changes to this team aren’t coming from the outside. Yes, the continued growth of the kids is the most important factor, but Ryan Strome has to go, and should not be being replaced by Chytil. Chytil does not complement Panarin in a similar way that Strome doesn’t.

I see two paths, both of which involve moving on from Strome:

1. Let Strome walk and replace him with a two way center with speed. I don’t care how old this player is. I don’t care how many points he has scored or projects to score. Put a defensively responsible player with speed that can win face offs next to Panarin. That player will score 50 points just by existing. Keep the kid line together and with growth they become the best third line in the league.

2. Let Strome walk and trade Panarin (yeah yeah yeah NMC). In this scenario, I elevate the kid line to be the second line, risky for sure, but we want to get these kids more ice time. Then, with the cap space and assets added by trading Panarin and letting Strome walk, I fill out the bottom six F and bottom pair defense with all the depth my heart desires.

I personally love the prospect of that second option after seeing the kid line in these playoffs:

Kreider-Zib-Kravtsov/Panarin Asset
Lafreniere-Chytil-Kakko
Othmann/Panarin Asset-Copp-Blais
Motte-Goodrow-Hunt/Reaves

Lindgren-Fox
Miller-Trouba
Panarin Asset/Jones-Schneider/Lundkvist

Those Panarin assets are either young players returned in the trade or UFAs signed with the abundant cap space we have in this scenario. Imagine poaching Rust and Rodrigues from PIT and plugging them in anywhere you want.

 

[LokiDog]

The concept of Hunt with Panarin is valid. The execution is not. You need to put a Hunt-type player on that line who is significantly better than Hunt. Motte is a good example, although I’d prefer the better-Hunt play the center position.

I also disagree that changes to this team aren’t coming from the outside. Yes, the continued growth of the kids is the most important factor, but Ryan Strome has to go, and should not be being replaced by Chytil. Chytil does not complement Panarin in a similar way that Strome doesn’t.

I see two paths, both of which involve moving on from Strome:

1. Let Strome walk and replace him with a two way center with speed. I don’t care how old this player is. I don’t care how many points he has scored or projects to score. Put a defensively responsible player with speed that can win face offs next to Panarin. That player will score 50 points just by existing. Keep the kid line together and with growth they become the best third line in the league.

2. Let Strome walk and trade Panarin (yeah yeah yeah NMC). In this scenario, I elevate the kid line to be the second line, risky for sure, but we want to get these kids more ice time. Then, with the cap space and assets added by trading Panarin and letting Strome walk, I fill out the bottom six F and bottom pair defense with all the depth my heart desires.

I personally love the prospect of that second option after seeing the kid line in these playoffs:

Kreider-Zib-Kravtsov/Panarin Asset
Lafreniere-Chytil-Kakko
Othmann/Panarin Asset-Copp-Blais
Motte-Goodrow-Hunt/Reaves

Lindgren-Fox
Miller-Trouba
Panarin Asset/Jones-Schneider/Lundkvist

Those Panarin assets are either young players returned in the trade or UFAs signed with the abundant cap space we have in this scenario. Imagine poaching Rust and Rodrigues from PIT and plugging them in anywhere you want.

I was with you until the last line and then I imagined having to root for Rodrigues and I had to run to the bathroom to make sure the vomit was contained.

 

[leetch99]

When Goodrow and Blais get back in the games next year then we will be better and Reaves will dress for less games . Our kid line will be better next season with this experience as will Schneider and Miller . Those 7 guys upping the intensity and level of play will bring better things.....I hope . We'll score more 5 on 5 and possibly have an even higher point total then this season .

 

[cheech70]

If we’re targeting veteran centers, I would rather Bergeron or Giroux. PLD remains my preferred target.

Or revisit JT(who is exactly what we need in the playoffs) for retention and the Strome or Copp money or a 1st etc..

 

[WojtekWolski86]

We are looking at around 5 mil in cap space if Motte resigns to a moderate deal and Kaako and Blais both take bridge deals. Buyout Nemeth and you gain another mil but you still need a 6/7 D so you are pinching a few pennies. I don't see how we get a 2C at that number at free agency. Drury needs to make some magic on the trade market come draft day.

 

[TheGortonConspiracy]

The concept of Hunt with Panarin is valid. The execution is not. You need to put a Hunt-type player on that line who is significantly better than Hunt. Motte is a good example, although I’d prefer the better-Hunt play the center position.

I also disagree that changes to this team aren’t coming from the outside. Yes, the continued growth of the kids is the most important factor, but Ryan Strome has to go, and should not be being replaced by Chytil. Chytil does not complement Panarin in a similar way that Strome doesn’t.

I see two paths, both of which involve moving on from Strome:

1. Let Strome walk and replace him with a two way center with speed. I don’t care how old this player is. I don’t care how many points he has scored or projects to score. Put a defensively responsible player with speed that can win face offs next to Panarin. That player will score 50 points just by existing. Keep the kid line together and with growth they become the best third line in the league.

2. Let Strome walk and trade Panarin (yeah yeah yeah NMC). In this scenario, I elevate the kid line to be the second line, risky for sure, but we want to get these kids more ice time. Then, with the cap space and assets added by trading Panarin and letting Strome walk, I fill out the bottom six F and bottom pair defense with all the depth my heart desires.

I personally love the prospect of that second option after seeing the kid line in these playoffs:

Kreider-Zib-Kravtsov/Panarin Asset
Lafreniere-Chytil-Kakko
Othmann/Panarin Asset-Copp-Blais
Motte-Goodrow-Hunt/Reaves

Lindgren-Fox
Miller-Trouba
Panarin Asset/Jones-Schneider/Lundkvist

Those Panarin assets are either young players returned in the trade or UFAs signed with the abundant cap space we have in this scenario. Imagine poaching Rust and Rodrigues from PIT and plugging them in anywhere you want.

And where exactly does Panarin approve a trade to? Reminder:
1. He reportedly turned down bigger offers from CBJ, NYI to join NYR
2. Gallant behind the bench is a dream for him, he gets to play the game how he wants, the coach does not ask anything of him and sticks a grinder a la Hunt/Blackwell on his line to do the dirty work.

For all of you that keep bringing up this Trade Panarin hypothetical, it's just not realistic

 

[EdJovanovski]

The concept of Hunt with Panarin is valid. The execution is not. You need to put a Hunt-type player on that line who is significantly better than Hunt. Motte is a good example, although I’d prefer the better-Hunt play the center position.

I also disagree that changes to this team aren’t coming from the outside. Yes, the continued growth of the kids is the most important factor, but Ryan Strome has to go, and should not be being replaced by Chytil. Chytil does not complement Panarin in a similar way that Strome doesn’t.

I see two paths, both of which involve moving on from Strome:

1. Let Strome walk and replace him with a two way center with speed. I don’t care how old this player is. I don’t care how many points he has scored or projects to score. Put a defensively responsible player with speed that can win face offs next to Panarin. That player will score 50 points just by existing. Keep the kid line together and with growth they become the best third line in the league.

2. Let Strome walk and trade Panarin (yeah yeah yeah NMC). In this scenario, I elevate the kid line to be the second line, risky for sure, but we want to get these kids more ice time. Then, with the cap space and assets added by trading Panarin and letting Strome walk, I fill out the bottom six F and bottom pair defense with all the depth my heart desires.

I personally love the prospect of that second option after seeing the kid line in these playoffs:

Kreider-Zib-Kravtsov/Panarin Asset
Lafreniere-Chytil-Kakko
Othmann/Panarin Asset-Copp-Blais
Motte-Goodrow-Hunt/Reaves

Lindgren-Fox
Miller-Trouba
Panarin Asset/Jones-Schneider/Lundkvist

Those Panarin assets are either young players returned in the trade or UFAs signed with the abundant cap space we have in this scenario. Imagine poaching Rust and Rodrigues from PIT and plugging them in anywhere you want.

This is more insane than anything Bernmeister has ever posted

 

[Synergy27]

And where exactly does Panarin approve a trade to? Reminder:
1. He reportedly turned down bigger offers from CBJ, NYI to join NYR
2. Gallant behind the bench is a dream for him, he gets to play the game how he wants, the coach does not ask anything of him and sticks a grinder a la Hunt/Blackwell on his line to do the dirty work.

For all of you that keep bringing up this Trade Panarin hypothetical, it's just not realistic

I repeat, yeah yeah yeah NMC. This ain’t happening but I think it’s in the best interest of the team if it did somehow.

This is more insane than anything Bernmeister has ever posted

I came pretty close to raising Boo Nieves from the dead and putting him at 1LD next to Fox. Missed opportunity apparently.

 

[SlingshotVv]

Kreider - Zib - Kakko
Lafreniere - Goodrow - Panarin
Copp - Strome - Blais
Motte - Rooney - Reaves

I would’ve really liked to see this forward line-up for a bit of playoff intensity games this year.

Mix of north/south, possession, and a shooter on the attacker lines

And a balanced checking line.

Oh well. This is our first year back in the dance. It’ll be interesting to see how the squad develops as it works toward a championship roster.

 

[TheGortonConspiracy]

This is more insane than anything Bernmeister has ever posted

So Kravtsov for Byfield has your stamp of approval?

 

[LokiDog]

Someone has little experience with actual Bernmeister posts.

Lindgren + 11 year extension * retained at 18% for all 13 years + Kravtsov + Kakko + 40 year extension at 3M per because he hasn’t proven anything + a 1st and 2nd, but not if a bluest blue chip is available for Erik Karlsson at full cap hit + San Jose’s next 11 dozen 1st round picks.

 

[egelband]

From what I recall we went after Danault, but he chose to go to LA.

Yep. Cuz he’s color blind, I bet.

 

[WojtekWolski86]

The concept of Hunt with Panarin is valid. The execution is not. You need to put a Hunt-type player on that line who is significantly better than Hunt. Motte is a good example, although I’d prefer the better-Hunt play the center position.

I also disagree that changes to this team aren’t coming from the outside. Yes, the continued growth of the kids is the most important factor, but Ryan Strome has to go, and should not be being replaced by Chytil. Chytil does not complement Panarin in a similar way that Strome doesn’t.

I see two paths, both of which involve moving on from Strome:

1. Let Strome walk and replace him with a two way center with speed. I don’t care how old this player is. I don’t care how many points he has scored or projects to score. Put a defensively responsible player with speed that can win face offs next to Panarin. That player will score 50 points just by existing. Keep the kid line together and with growth they become the best third line in the league.

2. Let Strome walk and trade Panarin (yeah yeah yeah NMC). In this scenario, I elevate the kid line to be the second line, risky for sure, but we want to get these kids more ice time. Then, with the cap space and assets added by trading Panarin and letting Strome walk, I fill out the bottom six F and bottom pair defense with all the depth my heart desires.

I personally love the prospect of that second option after seeing the kid line in these playoffs:

Kreider-Zib-Kravtsov/Panarin Asset
Lafreniere-Chytil-Kakko
Othmann/Panarin Asset-Copp-Blais
Motte-Goodrow-Hunt/Reaves

Lindgren-Fox
Miller-Trouba
Panarin Asset/Jones-Schneider/Lundkvist

Those Panarin assets are either young players returned in the trade or UFAs signed with the abundant cap space we have in this scenario. Imagine poaching Rust and Rodrigues from PIT and plugging them in anywhere you want.

Pitt saw this post and immediately resigned Rust at $5m per

 

[CLW]

When Goodrow and Blais get back in the games next year then we will be better and Reaves will dress for less games . Our kid line will be better next season with this experience as will Schneider and Miller . Those 7 guys upping the intensity and level of play will bring better things.....I hope . We'll score more 5 on 5 and possibly have an even higher point total then this season .

The kid line needs major minutes next year, plus more PP time for Laffy and Kaapo. Goodrow and Blais do not fix the top 6 issues we are seeing now.

 

[huerter]

We're trading Panarin and not Trouba? Why tho?